Digital Sucks! The sooner you understand this the better off you are going to be...

[GeorgeHayduke]

Originally Posted by steelyfan

I like a good, passionate rant! Regardless of post numbers . lol!

Me too

Sometimes you just gotta get a load off, and put things on the line.

As a matter of fact, I gotta agree with the OP on this: I would never pick a softsynth over an analog synth. Etc, etc. Gotta love analogue.

Problem is, you just can't beat ITB workflow. And analogue can be so dang expensive, if you're picky about it. But hey, get a brand new Mopho (like I did) for hardly any money and be one happy ex-softsynth user

On the other hand, I also looooove ITB workflow, and the fact that everything can be stuffed inside an itty bitty box, or be controlled via MIDI, for instance the Mopho.

But honestly, the fact is also that "they" lie when they say in ads that soft emulations sound "just like" the real deal. Thats a fact imo, if we're talking amp sims or soft synths or whatever. Those adds actually had me fooled for a couple of years. Nothing wrong in calling out marketing bs. That's a worthy cause for a good hearty rant, especially on a gear forum.

Kudos for that, even if I personally can't imagine giving up ITB workflow. Midi controlled analogue = Best of both worlds.

[Amun Ra]

Originally Posted by FireMoon

have you tired turning it off and on again?

lol :-)

[macr0w]

Originally Posted by Careyn

USA or made in china? I dunno... something about a 7 year old girl working 15 hours a day for pennies of the dollar in some dark room so that greedy f*****n company can save money in production doesn't sit right with me.
So I spend the extra dime

Where do you think those "greedy ****ing companies" are based?

Who do you think their customers are?

Why is Walmart at the top of the fortune 500?



Oh wait, that is precisely why.

[larry b]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

...Next time I go phishing, I'm making Careyn my Captain.

Actual laugh out loud!

This thread is amazing.

[KarmaPolice]

Originally Posted by GeorgeHayduke

But hey, get a brand new Mopho (like I did) for hardly any money and be one happy ex-softsynth user

Same here. Mopho ended my long frustrating search for a softsynth. Same goes for guitar amp modelers. Wish I had realized earlier that all these emulations
are not for me. Therefore I can understand the OP.

On the other hand I like recording and mixing ITB. Also some people might even prefer the sound of e.g. a POD over analog stuff and for some genres
it might be better suited than for others.

Personally I think, the more raw/dirty/vintage you want it to sound, the less plug ins work.

[KevWind]

As far as the op title goes its only a medium like analog .. Suckie digital definitely sucks .... beyond that, its a matter of perspective !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Darth Preamp]

Originally Posted by Roman

Digital does suck. I am disappointed there are so many internet bullies trying to make this a witch hunt with some mob justice thrown in.

I have been disappointed with digital sound so many times.
I kind of wish I hadn't bought a computer and endless frikkin upgrades just to hear good sound and touch real faders.

I now have Mac/Logic annd a Logic control. But I have to upgrade my m-audio converters to Lynx Aurora 16 cause these ones suck the life out of my beats.

When I listen to my beats through my Mackie 1604 they sound big and in the room. Monitor through the 12 m-audio inputs and the sound goes back a few feet, sounds flat and sucks.

I am probably gonna get a nicerizer 16 and bounce to tape from the aurora 16 outs. HOPEFULLY it comes close to the live analogue monitoring sound.

Digital sounds flat. There haven't been any classic hip hop or reggae records in the last 15 years.

Even my hero DJ Premier sounds flat since he switched from tape to Pro Tools.

My Nord Lead can't make a fat bass sound compared to the Korg MS20 I used to have.

The only drum sounds I like are from the late 60's, early 70's. Or Daptone records (Sharon Jones). Oh yeah and Dangelo "Voodoo' both recorded to tape.

Digital has killed music. I like drum machines though. I like 87-94 hip hop with sampled vinyl drums. And I like drum machine reggae. But the best stuff is recorded to tape. Like Dawn Penns "No, no, no".

Radio sucks as well. I feel like everyone has lost their mind. Hip hop used to be the truth now it is a brainwashing conspiracy.

Luckily Jamaican music is still righteous. But it suffers the digital sound also.

Digital sucks.

I've found that when I put my mixes down to 1/4" two track it really captures the broad , well defined huge soundstage that comes out of my mixer. When I put the same mixes back into digital, even with good converters, it sounds MUCH flatter than the mix did when coming through my console. The tape also adds something more to the sound which even the console doesn't have.

BT"W, this is a great thread if you take out all the insults.

DP



Reicher Recording - Home

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Darth Preamp

I've found that when I put my mixes down to 1/4" two track it really captures the broad , well defined huge soundstage that comes out of my mixer. When I put the same mixes back into digital, even with good converters, it sounds MUCH flatter than the mix did when coming through my console. The tape also adds something more to the sound which even the console doesn't have.

BT"W, this is a great thread if you take out all the insults.

DP



Reicher Recording - Home

Well, I'm not so sure I see why this is such a great thread.

What have we learned here?

That there is a wide variety of opinions on a number of aspects of audio production when it comes to digital vs analog solutions to the same problems and that some people are articulate about expressing their reasons, but that others repeat a suspiciously similar litany of cliches as though they were talking points from a political action committee. (And that those types exist in all opinion camps.)

We've learned -- as though we'd forgotten -- that some folks don't like to be called dupes, fools and liars for making the choices that they've made (whatever they are), particularly when they fit into the group above that has logically consistent rationales for their choices and can explain them.

And we've learned that some folks have what seems to amount to a compulsion to trumpet their particular worldview (of the moment) as the only correct view and further that they believe anyone who holds a contrary view is intellectually, ethically, and morally deficient.


Have I missed anything that makes this thread so great?

[Darth Preamp]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Well, I'm not so sure I see why this is such a great thread.

What have we learned here?

That there is a wide variety of opinions on a number of aspects of audio production when it comes to digital vs analog solutions to the same problems and that some people are articulate about expressing their reasons, but that others repeat a suspiciously similar litany of cliches as though they were talking points from a political action committee. (And that those types exist in all opinion camps.)

We've learned -- as though we'd forgotten -- that some folks don't like to be called dupes, fools and liars for making the choices that they've made (whatever they are), particularly when they fit into the group above that has logically consistent rationales for their choices and can explain them.

And we've learned that some folks have what seems to amount to a compulsion to trumpet their particular worldview (of the moment) as the only correct view and further that they believe anyone who holds a contrary view is intellectually, ethically, and morally deficient.


Have I missed anything that makes this thread so great?

Like I said before, this is a great post MINUS, the insults. I agree with you in that the name calling is foolish, and a waste of time.

However, if you take the insults away, you are left with a discussion of opposing ideas, and I like a good discussion of opposing ideas in a topic that interests me; helps me to clarify/re-access the truth and how I look at things.

The truth is that a good discussion of opposing ideas, is almost a completely lost art. And this is probably where we agree with each other; Most people feel threatened by ideas that contradict their own, and run the other way demonizing the opposing side to their own views. This shows at either the weakness of their views or the weakness of their minds ability to defend, intellectually, their position.

That's why I said this is a great post minus the insults, it is great to discuss/argue ideas from differing points of view. If only we could learn to have a little class while doing this.




DP


Reicher Recording - Home

[theblue1]

Well, I agree with all that in principle... I certainly think that those principles apply in general and to other threads... Maybe I'm just forgetting the good parts of this thread.




PS... I note it's now moved (perhaps predictably and no doubt appropriately) to the Moan Zone. I may have to bookmark that forum and add it to my tabs... I'm thinkin' that's where the people watching is...

[larry b]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Well, I agree with all that in principle... I certainly think that those principles apply in general and to other threads... Maybe I'm just forgetting the good parts of this thread.




PS... I note it's now moved (perhaps predictably and no doubt appropriately) to the Moan Zone. I may have to bookmark that forum and add it to my tabs... I'm thinkin' that's where the people watching is...

7000some posts and you just figured that out? Hehe i kid, i kid
Moan Zone rules, break out the popcorn!

Oh and there are some redeemable qualities to this thread...there are i tell ya.....and they are.....ummm....oh right nothing.

[theblue1]

7000+ posts... It's the coffee talkin' (not to mention nearly a half century of touch typing)...




Lots of good folks in this thread, to be sure, on both sides of the digital/analog divide (and a lot in the middle, too)...

I dunno. I guess my expectations were too high...

[akai96]

I think the key problem is the word "EMULATION"
Im no expert as an engineer,but have been into Synths for 20 years.
No,soft synths do not sound like the real thing Period!!
Worst?Better? niether,just different.As far as the audio plug-ins?not as sure but can for sure hear the difference when records where mixed ITB and OTB. Works for some things and not others I guess. I do still think 2 inch tape sounds like nothing else though.

[akai96]

Originally Posted by barrythave

It's such a useless discussion. People are willing to rip someone apart because they like something. Be constructive, not destructive. Tell why you like analog or digital, not why someone is a looser because he likes something.

Kudos!!

[themadnun]

[Careyn]

Well, I agree with all that in principle... I certainly think that those principles apply in general and to other threads... Maybe I'm just forgetting the good parts of this thread.

See, here's the difference between you and me: I don't see everything in black and white. I don't see the world as a conspiracy designed to fool me. I've lived a lot of life, seen a lot of stuff. Life is exceedingly complex. Truth is hard to pin down and always looks different from different perspectives.

But perspectives can be right or wrong and that is why we argue.
Otherwise values do not exist. Neither do principles blue. And everybody is right all the time.

If we want to prove anything, first we must define tems. I'd start with suck...

That is one of those rather ill-defined terms of art for which the IEEE has no criteria or standards, and, as far as I know, there's not even a discussion group on it...

Word has it that in the days of early Jazz if a musician couldn't play the horn very well they would say that he was "Sucking" on that horn. That's where the term "Suck" as being something bad came from.

Next.

There is some truth in what you say: digital audio is in its infancy and yes, what's new today is outdated next year vs its analog gear counterparts. And yes, at some point digital has to be converted back to analog for us to hear it. But analog is not perfect either.

Nothing is perfect. But I will take somebodys honest effort into building a piece of gear that gives my real tangible value over some digi-companys air for money anyway of the week. But thats me. If you like throwing your money down the drain keep buying digital.

What have we learned here?

That there is a wide variety of opinions on a number of aspects of audio production when it comes to digital vs analog solutions to the same problems and that some people are articulate about expressing their reasons, but that others repeat a suspiciously similar litany of cliches as though they were talking points from a political action committee. (And that those types exist in all opinion camps.)

Stringing together polispeak words ain't gonna cut it this time. So I must say you really have no answer for me and your claims are without merit. I'm not convinced. Either bring a valid argument to the table about why I should choose to buy digi-gear and invest my hard earned money into putting some rich fatcats kids through college over gear that gives me actual tangible components or shut up already.

You made sweepingly broad, absolutist pronunciations that essemtially implied that folks, some or even many of whom probably have more and deeper experience in both the analog and digital worlds, don't know what they're doing and that they're a bunch of sheep.

Damn right I am an absolutist. And under your relativism you have to respect my position but under my absolutism I don't have to respect yours. I can dismiss it as wrong and misleading.

It's such a useless discussion. People are willing to rip someone apart because they like something. Be constructive, not destructive. Tell why you like analog or digital, not why someone is a looser because he likes something.

I guess I am not the only person to misspell the word lose but on a more serious note analog is better because it costs more money to produce and customers get a lot more tangible value for their money. This is the point I am stressing. I have yet to hear a valid argument from the opposing members.

We've learned -- as though we'd forgotten -- that some folks don't like to be called dupes, fools and liars for making the choices that they've made (whatever they are), particularly when they fit into the group above that has logically consistent rationales for their choices and can explain them.

If you're wrong, you're wrong. That's not my fault. Don't all worked up because I called you out on your lies.

I mixed a record entierly in the box and it went gold single gold album and double platinum compilation, you are right .....digital SUCKS !!??.... (for the record I have a large format console too so I know what I'm talking about) it's not the tools it's the Engineer!
PS: I also produced that record only with soft synths...

And

ust remember this: Your audience does not care a single, shrivelled fig about what gear you use, as long as the music sounds professionally produced and grooves nicely in the right places—and THAT is about the skills of the engineer. NOBODY is going care whether you use a real minimoog or a software emulation, or whether you use an analog mixing console or not. It's not the gear that counts, it's what you do with it.

This is a valid point and I agree with it but it is completely and totally irrelevent. I want to see what the schematics on a piece of gear look like, what it's main components are, how much do they cost and how it has come to dominate the recording industry.
In other words: Show me the money. Show me how much money they put in the shiny box on the front page add. Because at the moment all you've told me is that despite the fact that all your money is not going towards actual components but rather towards building profit and more hype for the company this technology has worked for some people. Sure. But it doesn't make it better.
At the most, it's just bad gear. A cheap knock off of the real thing that worked in cases where compromises had to be made.

Other arguments presented to me:

-There have been pop tracks produced with digi-gear.

-It is recalable and easy.

-I like it.

The OP seems to be thinking that the gear does wonders on a mix but I am still thinking that an old dog can teach me new tricks even with plug ins.

Again for for **** sake we are not arguing about whether or not the plug-ins can be used in a mix but rather we are arguing why should we choose these ridiculously expensive digi-gear that cost absolute shit to produce over real tangible component gear that does the same thing and gives us real tangible value for our money. I have YET to hear a valid argument on this.

Hey, it's all good, Careyn. I'm all for you buying all that stuff and I'd certainly love to have a few of the pieces I've played with along the way -- I kick myself hard every time I think of the Mini-Moogs I could have bought for $300-$500. I mean, that makes me want to cry... drifting oscillators, leaky caps and all... (And one of my buddies did just that, buying and selling 'old' analog [and 'vintage' digital, even] synths, brokering, and trading, all through the late 80s and into the mid 90s. He kept himself alive buying dirt cheap and selling at increasingly higher prices. He was certainly someone helping drive the cost of such vintage gear up. Like a real estate agent flipping houses. )

It is not your friend or the people that do that type of trading that are driving the price up. I say that's bullsh!t. This can be attributed to a backlash against the business model the keyboard companies are following these days... you know... cheap and by the thousands. A business model that relies on the grunge effect to stay alive. And the misinformation of untrustworthy and uncouth people like yourself. And like the pyramid scheme it really is, it relies on new customers to stay alive. Because after the first few digital synths and softsynths you purchase you learn to take these glowing reviews with a grain of salt.
In short this is happening because most of the gear today has no sustenance, it is cheap, shallow, and gimmicky, and people are drifting away from it because each subsequent purchase is not giving them the sound they are after. So they hunt down the originals. The minimoogs, the junos, the jupiters, the 2600s. The real s**t.
Gear that was made by people who had a much wider appreciation for synthesis and the music industry in general and you're doing them a disservice by suggesting that some cheap digi-knock off offers us better value.
drifting oscillators, leaky caps?
As opposed to what Blue? No oscillators and no capacitors at all?
Just money for air? Software in a box?

Well blue, your friend is not to blame for this. The real problem is the fact that these emulations have the same problem you have! They lie to themselves and to others.
It is like the companies these days are trying to outdo each other at who will make the cheapest gear possible and sell it for the maximum amount of money!
That's how digital gear, which was already pretty ridiculous in its pretense (''analog modeling'').... has morphed into software gear, which gradually took the pretense to higher and higher levels of stupidity where keyboards don't make any sound at all (the lucrative midi controller market).

Like the black comedy idiocracy were Joe, the leading character,wakes up from a 500 year coma and learns that water has been replaced by "Brawndo: The Thirst Mutilator", an energy drink advertised as rich in electrolytes that has bought off the FDA and is now being used for virtually every purpose, including crop irrigation. Water is only used in toilets. Over time, the electrolytes in the Brawndo have accumulated in the soil, killing the crops and causing the food shortage. After several failed attempts to explain to the cabinet members the importance of water in irrigation, Joe instead convinces them that he can talk to plants, and promises that if they use water on the crops, it will end both the food shortage and dust bowls.

And this is exactly were we are right now.
There's a point where you just have to step back and go "you know what? This shit isn't working anymore. It's just ****ing cheap and stupid. And go back to the real gear.

[RTR]

Originally Posted by Batchainpuller78

that is a very good point, however there is a whole flock of people and cooperations trying to tell us what to buy next or how to do this and that, a whole lot of this industry is saying, analog you old fool buy the plug in and go ITB, and because of time efficiency it's used and preferred by many.
I'm not so fond of it as my studio is 98% analog and my vinyl collection is too.
and I do miss a certain kind of sound but mostly I don't like working behind the computer all day long and I don't like little screens with lists of parameters and function buttons, I also don't like the delay digital control has, in buttons, switches, and what not always that bit of processing, in analog it's one function per button, on or off, more or less, I find working like that a lot more intuitive and creative, it's like playing an instrument versus programming something, and the absence of a screen during a session is very very very nice, people are drawn to it like skeeters to a campfire.

I'm with the op on instruments that give inspiration, sitting behind a real piano is a totally different experience than playing on a nord-lead, it does not sound & feel like you sitting behind a real instrument resonating and producing overtones in a real room.

But in the end a good melody, song or tune will come across on anything even if it's made with a gameboy or recorded via the microphone mini jack on the back of a pc.

and my vinyl collection is too

REALLY...I thought albums were digital

[RTR]

Originally Posted by Careyn

I program my drums in the computer and probably will continue to do so.
Sometimes reason sometimes battery. Out on the board.

I also have the spectrasonics romplers and a lot of the stuff is good. But it is fixed and pre programmed. And guess what they used to make it. Vintage synths. Why because they sound good. It is good for what it is. I prefer to make my own sounds though.

The computer will be a sequencer/drum machine/sampler.
The computer won't be the whole F*****n studio for 20.000!

I just don't think that would be such a wise investment
Kind regards.

hip hop I assume?

[Careyn]

Originally Posted by RTR

hip hop I assume?

House, downtempo, ambient, idm. Synth music.
But the universal truism of why analog is better and gives musicians and studio owners more value for their dollar is not genre specific. So whether you are doing guitar based music, synth based music, hip-hop, metal, jazz or anything else if you focus on putting money into the actual components that make your studio what it is instead of somebody's poor idea of what that component can be emulated to sound like for no money (if he can manage to conceal his digi turd with extra features and sales pitch hype) you will have better sound.

[Batchainpuller78]

Originally Posted by RTR

REALLY...I thought albums were digital

Well I do have some more modern productions, where digital recording and editing was used before the album was printed to Vinyl making it not a 100% AAA record.

I also don't deny there are some great digital recordings out there with an amazing content.
but music is very much subjective in what one likes or dislikes and the sonics and types of music from the decades before computers became a household item are just more pleasant to my ears and being.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Careyn

But perspectives can be right or wrong and that is why we argue.
Otherwise values do not exist. Neither do principles blue. And everybody is right all the time.



Word has it that in the days of early Jazz if a musician couldn't play the horn very well they would say that he was "Sucking" on that horn. That's where the term "Suck" as being something bad came from.

Next.



Nothing is perfect. But I will take somebodys honest effort into building a piece of gear that gives my real tangible value over some digi-companys air for money anyway of the week. But thats me. If you like throwing your money down the drain keep buying digital.




Stringing together polispeak words ain't gonna cut it this time. So I must say you really have no answer for me and your claims are without merit. I'm not convinced. Either bring a valid argument to the table about why I should choose to buy digi-gear and invest my hard earned money into putting some rich fatcats kids through college over gear that gives me actual tangible components or shut up already.



Damn right I am an absolutist. And under your relativism you have to respect my position but under my absolutism I don't have to respect yours. I can dismiss it as wrong and misleading.




I guess I am not the only person to misspell the word lose but on a more serious note analog is better because it costs more money to produce and customers get a lot more tangible value for their money. This is the point I am stressing. I have yet to hear a valid argument from the opposing members.



If you're wrong, you're wrong. That's not my fault. Don't all worked up because I called you out on your lies.


And


This is a valid point and I agree with it but it is completely and totally irrelevent. I want to see what the schematics on a piece of gear look like, what it's main components are, how much do they cost and how it has come to dominate the recording industry.
In other words: Show me the money. Show me how much money they put in the shiny box on the front page add. Because at the moment all you've told me is that despite the fact that all your money is not going towards actual components but rather towards building profit and more hype for the company this technology has worked for some people. Sure. But it doesn't make it better.
At the most, it's just bad gear. A cheap knock off of the real thing that worked in cases where compromises had to be made.

Other arguments presented to me:

-There have been pop tracks produced with digi-gear.

-It is recalable and easy.

-I like it.




Again for for **** sake we are not arguing about whether or not the plug-ins can be used in a mix but rather we are arguing why should we choose these ridiculously expensive digi-gear that cost absolute shit to produce over real tangible component gear that does the same thing and gives us real tangible value for our money. I have YET to hear a valid argument on this.



It is not your friend or the people that do that type of trading that are driving the price up. I say that's bullsh!t. This can be attributed to a backlash against the business model the keyboard companies are following these days... you know... cheap and by the thousands. A business model that relies on the grunge effect to stay alive. And the misinformation of untrustworthy and uncouth people like yourself. And like the pyramid scheme it really is, it relies on new customers to stay alive. Because after the first few digital synths and softsynths you purchase you learn to take these glowing reviews with a grain of salt.
In short this is happening because most of the gear today has no sustenance, it is cheap, shallow, and gimmicky, and people are drifting away from it because each subsequent purchase is not giving them the sound they are after. So they hunt down the originals. The minimoogs, the junos, the jupiters, the 2600s. The real s**t.
Gear that was made by people who had a much wider appreciation for synthesis and the music industry in general and you're doing them a disservice by suggesting that some cheap digi-knock off offers us better value.
drifting oscillators, leaky caps?
As opposed to what Blue? No oscillators and no capacitors at all?
Just money for air? Software in a box?

Well blue, your friend is not to blame for this. The real problem is the fact that these emulations have the same problem you have! They lie to themselves and to others.
It is like the companies these days are trying to outdo each other at who will make the cheapest gear possible and sell it for the maximum amount of money!
That's how digital gear, which was already pretty ridiculous in its pretense (''analog modeling'').... has morphed into software gear, which gradually took the pretense to higher and higher levels of stupidity where keyboards don't make any sound at all (the lucrative midi controller market).

Like the black comedy idiocracy were Joe, the leading character,wakes up from a 500 year coma and learns that water has been replaced by "Brawndo: The Thirst Mutilator", an energy drink advertised as rich in electrolytes that has bought off the FDA and is now being used for virtually every purpose, including crop irrigation. Water is only used in toilets. Over time, the electrolytes in the Brawndo have accumulated in the soil, killing the crops and causing the food shortage. After several failed attempts to explain to the cabinet members the importance of water in irrigation, Joe instead convinces them that he can talk to plants, and promises that if they use water on the crops, it will end both the food shortage and dust bowls.

And this is exactly were we are right now.
There's a point where you just have to step back and go "you know what? This shit isn't working anymore. It's just ****ing cheap and stupid. And go back to the real gear.

[bold added]

Or... maybe you just don't know how to make it work for you. Others obviously feel they can make that technology work for themselves and their clients.
_______________________

The 'relativism' you seem predelicted to a attribute to me would, I think, only dictate that I respect your right to hold your own opinion -- not that I respect the opinion itself.

An altogether crucial distinction.

Perhaps, though, we can't expect a self-described 'absolutist' to understand such nuance.
_______________________

BTW... mixing up all those quotes from many people without attribution as you did above might prove a trifle confusing. Since more than a few are from me, a casual reader might be inclined to think they all were -- which is, most certainly not the case.
_______________________

PS... I've been meaning to add -- I do agree wholeheartedly on one point: shameless marketing BS, when one runs into it, is as disreputable as it often is laughable.

[joey tunez]

was this whole thing made by dj quik?

[Careyn]

Originally Posted by theblue1

[bold added]

Or... maybe you just don't know how to make it work for you. Others obviously feel they can make that technology work for themselves and their clients.
_______________________

The 'relativism' you seem predelicted to a attribute to me would, I think, only dictate that I respect your right to hold your own opinion -- not that I respect the opinion itself.

An altogether crucial distinction.

Perhaps, though, we can't expect a self-described 'absolutist' to understand such nuance.
_______________________

BTW... mixing up all those quotes from many people without attribution as you did above might prove a trifle confusing. Since more than a few are from me, a casual reader might be inclined to think they all were -- which is, most certainly not the case.
_______________________

PS... I've been meaning to add -- I do agree wholeheartedly on one point: shameless marketing BS, when one runs into it, is as disreputable as it often is laughable.

Can't you just ****ing give me an answer about why should anybody choose expensive digital gear that costs **** to make over expensive analog gear that is expensive to make? F*ck....you keep saying this. "For some people this technology works well." How hard is it to answer my question Blue?


You are complaining about shameless marketing bullshit yet you are willing to defend expensive digi gear that is built on that very attribute and that very attribute only!

And that, my friend, is moral relativism for you because you are talking from a position of hypocrisy. Blame me for being absolute but at least people know what I stand for.

You are just hiding your superficial posts behind 10 cent words and I am sorry to tell you ''dude'' it is not working.


Here...

I could could ''flower it up'' too if I wanted:

The premise that supports your declarative proposition is in a state of incorrectness because you are postulating the pragmatic truth that electronic equipment built on capacitors, resistors, inductors and transistors offers more tangible value to the potential purchaser because the the sum of the cost of the raw material resources that went into producing it is of greater monetary value than that of digital equipment.

You have not met the objective of offering any rebuttal to nullify this pragmatic truth. Instead you resort to attacking the characteristics of the person presenting you the evidence, rather than by addressing the substance of the evidence presented to you.
Your intellectually shallow style over substance and appeal to ridicule arguments however cannot deduce the truth.

And the undisputed fact you are constantly trying to divert attention from on your witch-hunt is that

analog gear offers more tangible value to potential musicians and studio owners than digital because the raw material resources that make the analog product what it is are of greater monetary value that those of digital and software gear.

I presented you this bulletproof fact. You are arguing the merits of it.

[Batchainpuller78]

Okay okay no need to shout!
It won't change a thing no matter how big your letters are.
You know be happy, get the analog gear you want & use it
let all the rest cook in their digital world.

[akai96]

Is it that bad?

[Yago]

Originally Posted by Careyn

This is where you and I are different. When I buy a piece of gear the first thing I ask my self is how much money did the company spend to produce this. I am not talking about research.

This is the part that really points out the flaws in your thinking .
"research money" goes against your argument , so you just decide to erase it for your convenience .


Oh and as you are such a fan of analogue equipment and it's monetary value , can I ask your opinion on SMD over through hole technologies , as SMD has repercussions associated with rework ? :p

[dodgeaspen]

I will admit I am not a fan of digital but it does play a part in the field. Do I hear a difference in the quality of sound in music today because of the digital rehelm? Yes. Is this a good thing? Personally I think sonically the music sounded better in analog, but also the quality of the musicians playing the music was better back in the day. Digital has opend doors to anyone who wants to record. With digital you look at a screen and make adjustments with your eyes. Is this a good thing? No. It takes the originality out of the music with auto tune and cutting and pasting milliseconds from songs. When tracking and mixing you NEED to listen to the music.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Careyn

Can't you just ****ing give me an answer about why should anybody choose expensive digital gear that costs **** to make over expensive analog gear that is expensive to make? F*ck....you keep saying this. "For some people this technology works well." How hard is it to answer my question Blue?


You are complaining about shameless marketing bullshit yet you are willing to defend expensive digi gear that is built on that very attribute and that very attribute only!

And that, my friend, is moral relativism for you because you are talking from a position of hypocrisy. Blame me for being absolute but at least people know what I stand for.

You are just hiding your superficial posts behind 10 cent words and I am sorry to tell you ''dude'' it is not working.


Here...

I could could ''flower it up'' too if I wanted:

The premise that supports your declarative proposition is in a state of incorrectness because you are postulating the pragmatic truth that electronic equipment built on capacitors, resistors, inductors and transistors offers more tangible value to the potential purchaser because the the sum of the cost of the raw material resources that went into producing it is of greater monetary value than that of digital equipment.

You have not met the objective of offering any rebuttal to nullify this pragmatic truth. Instead you resort to attacking the characteristics of the person presenting you the evidence, rather than by addressing the substance of the evidence presented to you.
Your intellectually shallow style over substance and appeal to ridicule arguments however cannot deduce the truth.

And the undisputed fact you are constantly trying to divert attention from on your witch-hunt is that

analog gear offers more tangible value to potential musicians and studio owners than digital because the raw material resources that make the analog product what it is are of greater monetary value that those of digital and software gear.

I presented you this bulletproof fact. You are arguing the merits of it.

No, actually, you didn't.

Not only that, you attributed to me a number of positions and conclusions of which even a moderately careful reading of my posts would disabuse any clear-headed thinker.

Now, I have no interest in persuading you to see or do things my way -- in the slightest -- but I am concerned about your many extremely dubious, often misleading and sometimes just downright boneheaded public statements -- because they may confuse impressionable newbs.


I'm not sure what your experience base is.

I, myself, grew up with (analog) tape recorders, a love affair that began when I was under 5; I did my first 'serious' overdub project when I was 14; in the early 1980s, I went through two commercial music/recording programs and worked on many score projects from classical to jazz to punk to advertising in analog tape studios. I've owned 10 analog reel tape recorders, five of them multi-tracks. (I stopped counting the number of cassette decks I'd owned when it topped 25.)

While I was still in school, I began my continuing involvement with electronic synthesis, initially learning to patch synths on a Moog Model 15 modular synth where you used real patch cords to connect modules (similar to the system used by Wendy Carlos on her seminal Switched on Bach album from the late 60s [when Wendy was still Walter]). I learned to sequence on pre-MIDI voltage controlled sequencers.


Like I said, I don't know what your experience base is, but I really don't need you to tell me anything.

Even if you could.


_________


I would suggest you take Batchainpuller78's excellent advice: live and let live.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Greener

The post above is a fair burn by any measure. +1.

That being said, I hate over dubs, I hate people even writing there songs before they play them. I play in an improv band that cuts everything from the back of the mind right into the recorder... Given costs and whatnot so far all we have been able to do is direct to digital... But one day there will be a DTD project, straight through analogue all the way onto a record... That just screams chops. All other music is pre-fab.

How's that for hardline? :P

Sounds good to me!


I used to do a strictly improv ambient electronica echo loop act (which I named Frippenstein in tribute to Bob Fripp and his far more sublime Frippertronics guitar and tape-echo based solo act).

After playing a lot of coffee house and small club dates, inviting friends up to improvise along with me, we put together an all-improv act around my rig that incorporated violin, lap steel and 6 string electric guitars, percussion and woodwinds (there was a lot of instrument hopping)... and it was both really fun and occasionally terrifying. (The worst thing, though, was the set up... my rig -- before the advent of echo-looper-in-a-box solutions -- was nasty... there were over 90 cables, including power cords, and only a small part of that could be left connected.)

Anyhow, I'm all about improv. (I have a crummy memory and I can decipher notation, given enough time, but I'm a million miles and several lifetimes away from sight-reading.)

(The morbidly curious can get a taste of Frippenstein in collaboration with another early 90s echo-loop act, Michael Rothmeyer, here.)


PS... with regard to the burn aspect of my previous post: I toned down the last bit a little after you posted. I really don't want to make Careyn feel bad. He reminds me of me when I was young and similarly manifesto-prone.

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by Greener

Bob Fripp is awesome!

No kidding!


Seeing him do Frippertronics was pretty damn awesome, for sure. It was a sort of combo performance/lecture (at the old Tower Records on Sunset Blvd in Hollywood, c. 1979 or 1980) and I had to perch on the edge of a wooden record bin, holding on to a building support column (and amazingly, the Tower employees were cool with that -- not your typical record store, that was). He was a little reserved but opened up and was ultimately quite charming... and seeing him improvise his Frippertronics music into those two big old Revox RTRs was really, really cool. Very inspiring.


[Sorry to derail the thread with talk about... um... music. ]