Clients mixing instead of mixing engineer ?

[Rokus666]

Hi,

How do you solve the problem when the clients sit behind your chair and tell you things randomly on the mix session. They just tell me things the way they want it, I don't want to be more specific. At the end I have a feeling that It's just another amateur mix. They just want to keep bringing certain random elements up in the mix untill it overpowers the whole track, and stuff like that that doesn't make rational sense to me.

If I am hired to mix it, how can I make a sonic judgement without affecting client's irrational request ?

The other day I had a "producer" in my chair (the guy who made the beat)...He was so "particular" about his drum sound and the levels of his drums. At some point he had a single kick drum soloed for 4 hours (not exagerating) just EQ-ing the bottom, just dragging the eq with the mouse up and down for hours and walking around the room and listening in the corners. Also he had me put the compresor on over-the-top limited and compressed kick drum. Also when he bounced down his "drum mix" that he was working on for hours, the tracks came out bounced at unity gain.
I "mixed" one sinlge song for 4 sessions with them attending each time, and he was always lacking something, whether kick wasn't good, or the vocal was too quiet, something needed to be brought up in the mix, nothing ever needed to come down considering that the meter was banging red. Nothing was ever just right.

And the best part is that I agreed to charge a flat fee for the whole record.

What woould be the most professional response to this ???
What would you tell him if it was you in this situation ?
How do your people skills kick in this situation ?

[DaydreamInSound]

Had this recently with a whole album... I think the thing now sounds absolute gash.

Apart from the 2 songs I originally mixed and he didnt want to change - theyre the standout best mixes of the album!

[Infernal Device]

About 10 minutes in I would have switched to hourly rate. Any decent human would not do that to you.

[suedesound]

Well at least they didn't insist on being there for the mix session, not pay any attention for the whole day, then send you an email with a huge list of changes after oking each mix in the studio. Then send you five more emails over the next few weeks asking for more changes. I should mention this is after they decided to track everything on their own at their rehersal space with crappy mics and interface to save a few bucks, then booked one day to mix 6 songs.

Or go over a very long and detailed list of everything that needed to change from the rough you gave them after tracking, talking over the actual mixes you're trying to play them that you worked on all week that sound completely different from the roughes anyway.

I think I would completely lose it if I had to watch someone EQ a kick for 4 hours, probably would lose it after an hour.

For advice on your situation, get your mix as close to done without them there then have them come in and give you notes on what to change etc.

[Jax]

There's a point where a client crosses the line because he or she doesn't respect or trust in your knowledge and skill. It is always a good idea to play examples of your work to the client before ever starting a project with them. If they like what they hear, they have a better idea what to expect when you mix their material. I'm not saying you didn't do this, but since it is unknown, I'm mentioning it.

A good alternative or addition to this is mixing one song for free, especially when the client is new to you. However, in this case it's a good idea to have them sign a contract saying that if they agree to use your free mix, you're going to mix the rest of their material as well.

I would've told your client that if he wants to rent the studio so he can experiment with mixing, he's welcome to take the engineer's chair. And I'd refuse to take credit for any mixes coming out of the studio that he did.

The subtext to ALL of this is that if you don't exude an air of confidence and reliability (hopefully based on the reality of what you have to offer), none of the above will even be possible. People will walk all over you unless you take charge.

[hipass]

Charge by the hour it's the only fair way to do it...
Because there will always be someone who will take advantage of you.
So if you charge $750/day to mix 2 songs then if they take 2 days to do one song it's the clients fault and you get compensation for your time.

[papanauta]

learn the lesson.
got to charge per hour.

[soundsundergroun]

I tell them to let me get the mix sounding good then they can make changes. Most of the time the changes are minimal.

[andrewh]

Every now and then I get a little frustrated while mixing when the client gets a little too involved. But I NEVER charge a flat rate. Always a day rate, or sometimes hourly. No big deal...

[NathanEldred]

Originally Posted by soundsundergroun

I tell them to let me get the mix sounding good then they can make changes. Most of the time the changes are minimal.

+1

[The MPCist]

Just incorporate their ideas into the mix and move on. It's their music after all so why not.

If it takes up too much time, switch to by hour or by day after the first song is mixed....

But if they're paying for it, just let them realize their sonic dream.

[Rokus666]

Originally Posted by The MPCist

Just incorporate their ideas into the mix and move on. It's their music after all so why not.

If it takes up too much time, switch to by hour or by day after the first song is mixed....

But if they're paying for it, just let them realize their sonic dream.

that is a good point, but what if their dream is based on some irrational sonic vision ?

Like breaking the song elements apart, and pushing each of the elements up in the mix every once in a while.
I'll try to give an example:

They didn't hear enough pads so they wanted it more in the mix with more body...and after 2-3 hours, they finally realize that pads are over-powering the mix, so the pads come down.

Their approach is the same for each one of the elements in the mix(vocals, drums, bass, synth lines,...) periodically each of the elements has to be set to loudest level in order to satisfy them sonically and they move one to another part.
Sounds weird...but I feel a little burnt with this approach, because the artist is new and didn't have any prior experience working on mix sessions in the studio...

[rkwyent]

Originally Posted by Rokus666

that is a good point, but what if their dream is based on some irrational sonic vision ?

Like breaking the song elements apart, and pushing each of the elements up in the mix every once in a while.
I'll try to give an example:

They didn't hear enough pads so they wanted it more in the mix with more body...and after 2-3 hours, they finally realize that pads are over-powering the mix, so the pads come down.

Their approach is the same for each one of the elements in the mix(vocals, drums, bass, synth lines,...) periodically each of the elements has to be set to loudest level in order to satisfy them sonically and they move one to another part.
Sounds weird...but I feel a little burnt with this approach, because the artist is new and didn't have any prior experience working on mix sessions in the studio...

Sounds like you have a hard time putting your foot down in this situation.

You are the best judge of how your speakers and room translate. let them know that. If they are looking for a particular sound, YOU find it for them dont let them try. You are the one with the experience.

I would address that situation and if they don't like it they can walk. That is too much of a hassle to deal with.

[Zenith]

Oh it is so painful to read this - Ouch! I have been there, done that, swore I would never do it again, and then repeat ad nauseam...

You seem like a very customer service oriented audio engineer - Unfortunately your client will realize this and then proceed to use it to their advantage, even though it is inherently wrong. Equalizing the kick drum for four hours is ridiculous - Kudos to you for your tolerance... I would have thrown myself out of the nearest window 45 minutes into it (boost, cut, boost, cut, wander, boost, cut - UGG!)...

Most clients that I have worked with have not been that picky, but they do want to to be part of the mixing process in some way, shape, or form. Because you are painting a sonic picture, they want to hold the brush - Here are some ways I have included the artist(s) without them totally stepping on my toes:

1. Set ground rules - "Your input is very important to me, however when I am listening critically I would really appreciate a quiet environment so I can focus. Could you jot down your ideas and share them with me during breaks?"... I have found this helps tremendously when it come to clients barking out orders.

2. Ask your client to bring in a "guide CD" - Something that they feel reflects the overall feel they are going for. I will proceed to A-B them throughout the session - The artist will feel like they contributed substantially to the final product.

3. If you are working in a digital environment capable of automation, I will have each musician come up to the board and ride the fader throughout their individual track. Normally they are too afraid to go more than a couple of dB up or down, but they leave feeling like they were in control.

I hope some of these suggestions helped... Happy Mixing!

[Rokus666]

Originally Posted by Zenith

Oh it is so painful to read this - Ouch! I have been there, done that, swore I would never do it again, and then repeat ad nauseam...

You seem like a very customer service oriented audio engineer - Unfortunately your client will realize this and then proceed to use it to their advantage, even though it is inherently wrong. Equalizing the kick drum for four hours is ridiculous - Kudos to you for your tolerance... I would have thrown myself out of the nearest window 45 minutes into it (boost, cut, boost, cut, wander, boost, cut - UGG!)...

Most clients that I have worked with have not been that picky, but they do want to to be part of the mixing process in some way, shape, or form. Because you are painting a sonic picture, they want to hold the brush - Here are some ways I have included the artist(s) without them totally stepping on my toes:

1. Set ground rules - "Your input is very important to me, however when I am listening critically I would really appreciate a quiet environment so I can focus. Could you jot down your ideas and share them with me during breaks?"... I have found this helps tremendously when it come to clients barking out orders.

2. Ask your client to bring in a "guide CD" - Something that they feel reflects the overall feel they are going for. I will proceed to A-B them throughout the session - The artist will feel like they contributed substantially to the final product.

3. If you are working in a digital environment capable of automation, I will have each musician come up to the board and ride the fader throughout their individual track. Normally they are too afraid to go more than a couple of dB up or down, but they leave feeling like they were in control.

I hope some of these suggestions helped... Happy Mixing!

I will memorize number 1 and use it today!
The problem is that I got little stuck being too tolerant and diplomatic. Very hard to get out from that situation.
This is awesome, thank you.

[Jax]

Those are excellent suggestions, Zenith. They point to the fact that giving the client a structure is often necessary, especially for people who wouldn't otherwise know how to work professionally. It's a two way street. You have to think of how you'd like to be treated if you were the client. If you never give them anything to do, some clients can appreciate that and work with it. When they start treading all over your sanity in your workspace, THAT's when you need the ability to recognize your boundaries and SPEAK UP.

Contracts are GREAT for this. You can put whatever you want in the contract within reason and expectation, including that the client should be quiet or absent during mixing unless a hired producer will be there to make suggestions, and that ideas and changes for the mix will be discussed AFTER each mix session, not during.

Keeping them involved and giving them a sense of control over what you're doing is absolutely necessary. I've not always been on top of everything in that way, but it always goes much more smoothly when I am.

Great thread!