hard work ruined by remix engineer or mastering

[Piedpiper]

This is a new experience for me.

After over two years of pouring my life's blood into engineering and producing a completely undeveloped but talented songwriter with no performing experience, the client decided he wanted to have his project remixed by a famous mix engineer, whom he chose on paper without consulting me, to better insure his chances in a competition in which he planned to enter the CD. His guy then proceeded to "ruin" everything I had worked hard to achieve. The client trusted him implicitly due to "who he is" and encouraged him to disregard my input and follow his own instincts. The client then continued to solicit my unpaid input which he typically disregarded. I ended up telling him it was now between him and his new guy to sort it out. In addition to all this, the "famous" mastering engineer he similarly chose without my blessing squashed it to death. What started as a very subtle and refined project ended up as a harsh aggressive mess completely out of character with the evolution of the project.

I do feel that if we had all been able to sit together in the same room to mix it we could have produced something that we all could have been happy with, but we're in the states and the mix guy is in the client's native London. My only consolation is that I continued to refine my own mixes for possible alternative "producers mix" release. It made me want to find a way to insure against this happening again in my contracts.

Thoughts? Experiences? Contract wording?

[lowfreq33]

Eh, that does suck. I've been in a few similar situations. It is hard when you've worked on something you actually care about and it gets handed off to someone else to ruin.

The bottom line is, we're in a service industry, whether we like it or not. I've had several clients go with a mix engineer who cut them a better deal, or was a friend, or maybe even had a more extensive resume. Never with very good results. But no matter what, if you did the job you were paid to do (and I hope this wasn't a favor job or on spec), then you should sleep well at night. Take some consolation in the fact that a bad sounding record is usually blamed on the mix engineer or mastering engineer.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by lowfreq33

Eh, that does suck. I've been in a few similar situations. It is hard when you've worked on something you actually care about and it gets handed off to someone else to ruin.

The bottom line is, we're in a service industry, whether we like it or not. I've had several clients go with a mix engineer who cut them a better deal, or was a friend, or maybe even had a more extensive resume. Never with very good results. But no matter what, if you did the job you were paid to do (and I hope this wasn't a favor job or on spec), then you should sleep well at night. Take some consolation in the fact that a bad sounding record is usually blamed on the mix engineer or mastering engineer.

Thanks. I did get paid quite well, up until he ran out of money because he had to budget in the very expensive mix engineer.

[Tantrum The Cat]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

This is a new experience for me.

After over two years of pouring my life's blood into engineering and producing a completely undeveloped but talented songwriter with no performing experience, the client decided he wanted to have his project remixed by a famous mix engineer, whom he chose on paper without consulting me, to better insure his chances in a competition in which he planned to enter the CD. His guy then proceeded to "ruin" everything I had worked hard to achieve. The client trusted him implicitly due to "who he is" and encouraged him to disregard my input and follow his own instincts. The client then continued to solicit my unpaid input which he typically disregarded. I ended up telling him it was now between him and his new guy to sort it out. In addition to all this the "famous" mastering engineer he similarly chose without my blessing squashed it to death. What started as a very subtle and refined project ended up as a harsh aggressive mess completely out of character with the evolution of the project.

I do feel that if we had all been able to sit together in the same room to mix it we could have produced something that we all could have been happy with, but we're in the states and the mix guy is in the client's native London. My only consolation is that I continued to refine my own mixes for possible alternative "producers mix" release. It made me want to find a way to insure against this happening again in my contracts.

Thoughts? Experiences? Contract wording?

Assuming you have the tracks still, you should make some alternate mixes that YOU are happy with and put THOSE in your portfolio/demo reel/online samples/what have you.

Pretty much everything I do is delivered to clients to be mixed and mastered elsewhere, and I've had to learn that what I send is going to come back sounding different - sometimes drastically so. I chalk it up to experience, make sure that I have a version that I like the sound of, and move on.

I don't mean to be glib, by the way - it took a few years for the old ego to be okay with all of this!!!

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

Assuming you have the tracks still, you should make some alternate mixes that YOU are happy with and put THOSE in your portfolio/demo reel/online samples/what have you.

Pretty much everything I do is delivered to clients to be mixed and mastered elsewhere, and I've had to learn that what I send is going to come back sounding different - sometimes drastically so. I chalk it up to experience, make sure that I have a version that I like the sound of, and move on.

I don't mean to be glib, by the way - it took a few years for the old ego to be okay with all of this!!!

Thanks for the moral support. If you reread the second to last line in the second to last paragraph you'll see that's exactly what I did. Yup, the ol' ego is slowly but surely being beaten into humble submission. Any day now, I might even grow up.

In this case I was the producer as well as engineer, and was not expecting to be sidestepped. Unfortunately, I had nothing in the contract to protect against it. The whole thing was a huge learning experience that escalated way beyond my original expectations. I'm actually quite thankful for the experience, mostly...

[narcoman]

yup. Happens a lot. I'd say half the time I'm producing - when it comes to the mix stage the label or management sidesteps me and does what they want. Kind of the stupidest thing anyone can do - the producer should really be allowed to finish what he/she started..... the mix is PART of the production!!

ah well....

[Jay Pemberton]

I'm reminded of a problematic EP project back in 1993. It was a from-scratch remake of a nightmare recording of a band who'd had no experience in a studio, and thought they could turn up at 10 in the morning (dead strings, clapped-out drums whose heads hadn't been changed in 12 years....I could go on), record most of the day, demand everything be their way in the mixing and whatnot, and emerge with a fully professional-sounding, finished, duplication-ready master by 10 the same evening!

The band themselves weren't the problem. It was their self-styled prima-donna 'manager' eejit who was the cause of the problems. The band generally acted like so many quiet puppies around this eejit, but once he was out of the loop, things went better.

The remakes were a great improvement over the first batch, just the band and myself at the sessions, no-one else. I did the mixing and mastering in solitude. The results weren't the greatest, but the band were seemingly pleased with the final product, much improved over the initial efforts.

It was perhaps five months later when cassette copies of their EP were at last manufactured and were to be made available. I soon saw a couple of the band members, and asked them how the tapes sounded. They told me the cassettes I'd made them off the master sounded much better. I got a copy of the finished tape, and even before I gave it a listen, I saw where it went wrong. Eejit had had his name put on them as 'producer' even though he'd been barred from the studio, and the songs were in a different sequence as well.

And the sound....horrid. The extreme bottom and top ends were very boosted, into distortion, more reverb had been added, the midrange sucked out, and there was some other weird texture on the top end I later learned was 'aural exciter'. Unlistenable, like it had been run though a graphic EQ set like a V.

The rhythm guitarist and I discussed this. He told me the band were not happy with the tapes. We decided to pay a visit to the firm who was going to duplicate the cassettes, to find out what had happened, and to see what could be done about it.

We met the person who'd been involved. He told us Mr Eejit had said the tape was horrible and wanted something done about it. There were no proper monitors; this worthy was listening to everything on a small speaker designed for in-wall installation that was sitting on a chair. And doing whatever he did based on what was coming out of that.

He was doing a 'customer's always right even when wrong' thing. I explained that Eejit had no say in it, and since my name was on it it must represent what I produced, etc. I understood how he was caught in the middle of this fray, and asked him to please ring me in future if something like this was to happen again. I don't think he was too hip to that idea though, sadly.

They were unwilling to print new labels to reflect proper credits and song sequence; in the end we settled for me remastering the songs to a new DAT tape to reflect the sequence shown on the labels, with the tapes to be made from that.

Moral--if you are engaged by a band to engineer and produce something, supervise the manufacturing as well!

[jeremy.c.]

sorry to hear this. we would all do well to learn that the job of saving people from themselves is the realm of psychotherapists and priests...

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by olivia_nb

sorry to hear this. we would all do well to learn that the job of saving people from themselves is the realm of psychotherapists and priests...

well said. (deep breath)

[akai96]

Wow! I am learning alot just by listning to you all.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by akai96

Wow! I am learning alot just by listning to you all.

the voice of experience is an amazing thing.

[akai96]

For a while I was only a programmer. I did some notable records too,but so many times the final masters sounded so much worse than the rough mixes. Even though I was only the programmer, this was extremely frustrating.I can only imagine how frustrated you all are.

Do they like the new mixes/production? In the beginning of my career many times the tracks I'd worked so hard on were taken away and mixed by someone else. I used to cop resentments, but I've learned it's just how it goes sometimes. Fortunately, my rough mixes are some much better now (21 years later) that I oftentimes end up doing the finals. On the other side of the coin, if someone remixes it and the record comes out better, then I'm all for that.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by tekis

Do they like the new mixes/production? In the beginning of my career many times the tracks I'd worked so hard on were taken away and mixed by someone else. I used to cop resentments, but I've learned it's just how it goes sometimes. Fortunately, my rough mixes are some much better now (21 years later) that I oftentimes end up doing the finals. On the other side of the coin, if someone remixes it and the record comes out better, then I'm all for that.

The client likes the new mixes better but I strongly suspect that he does so because he trusts the mix engineer implicitly. I also think he's compelled to like him because he committed a load of money to him sight unheard. I believe that if the mix engineer had done something that I would have liked, the client would have raved about that.

[-silent-sam-]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

The client likes the new mixes better but I strongly suspect that he does so because he trusts the mix engineer implicitly. I also think he's compelled to like him because he committed a load of money to him sight unheard. I believe that if the mix engineer had done something that I would have liked, the client would have raved about that.

Doing your own mixes isn't a bad idea.....

I know this is a really frustrating situation to be in..... It's not fair at all.

but I guess part of being an engineer / producer is to help the artist realize their goal, not your goal for the project.

Defiantly a shame that all the hard work ends up being screwed with...... but I guess if thats what the client wants....... It's your job to talk him out of it otherwise...... If he won't listen to you then you have done all you can.

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by silent-sam

Doing your own mixes isn't a bad idea.....

I know this is a really frustrating situation to be in..... It's not fair at all.

but I guess part of being an engineer / producer is to help the artist realize their goal, not your goal for the project.

Defiantly a shame that all the hard work ends up being screwed with...... but I guess if thats what the client wants....... It's your job to talk him out of it otherwise...... If he won't listen to you then you have done all you can.

I would have been happy to work with the client on picking a mix engineer we could both be comfortable with and then work with them to accomplish our goals but the client was getting increasingly anxious and controlling due to his investment and agenda, and got in the way of a smooth facilitation of the situation.

I know one very experienced producer/engineer who has evolved wording in his contract that insures that no one other than him gets any producing credits, and that he has final say on everything. It seemed harsh when I first heard that but I get why now. I don't expect I'll take quite that route but at the very least my preproduction conversations with my clients have definitely been more informed in this area.

[N. Michael]

If you think your work can hold its own, then keep doing it. Make more and better sounding recordings. When this "artist" listens to the mixes a couple years down the road and wishes the drums sounded like real drums rather than cardboard boxes in a Budweiser can, maybe he will listen to some of your productions for a reference.

I'm not big on actual revenge, rather I prefer to build a better race car and win the next race legit. I understand, it is a bitch to lose control. I agree that adding contractual language to give you the right to mix and master is a good idea. Not always possible though.

I had an experience where my band spent a year working on material, demoing it, recording it, mixing it and then we took a chance on a certain mastering engineer. He was a dick and didn't listen to us at all. His beautiful house in the woods with his expensive gear and extensive client list didn't mean jack if he couldn't get the EQ right.

Unfortunately we had a production schedule we couldn't back out of. The mastered version was shit and we actually took it to our friends house and he helped us EQ it on a F**KIN' Mackie board through a couple of channels the day before we had to get the masters to the press to make the release date.

The feeling sucked. I learned. Even when I thought I was in control I really wasn't. Sometimes it is a babysitting job all the way to the shrink wrap (or Itunes)

Stick to your guns. I bet it will pay off in the end...

N. Michael

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by N. Michael

If you think your work can hold its own, then keep doing it. Make more and better sounding recordings. When this "artist" listens to the mixes a couple years down the road and wishes the drums sounded like real drums rather than cardboard boxes in a Budweiser can, maybe he will listen to some of your productions for a reference.

I'm not big on actual revenge, rather I prefer to build a better race car and win the next race legit. I understand, it is a bitch to lose control. I agree that adding contractual language to give you the right to mix and master is a good idea. Not always possible though.

I had an experience where my band spent a year working on material, demoing it, recording it, mixing it and then we took a chance on a certain mastering engineer. He was a dick and didn't listen to us at all. His beautiful house in the woods with his expensive gear and extensive client list didn't mean jack if he couldn't get the EQ right.

Unfortunately we had a production schedule we couldn't back out of. The mastered version was shit and we actually took it to our friends house and he helped us EQ it on a F**KIN' Mackie board through a couple of channels the day before we had to get the masters to the press to make the release date.

The feeling sucked. I learned. Even when I thought I was in control I really wasn't. Sometimes it is a babysitting job all the way to the shrink wrap (or Itunes)

Stick to your guns. I bet it will pay off in the end...

N. Michael

Thanks for the support. That's exactly my intention. It's already paid off in lessons learned, including compelling me to work on my mixes more. I've even rose to the occasion of standing up for myself without burning the bridge with my client, something I was definitely in danger of doing.

Sorry to hear of your "live 'n learn" story, but life is rife with less than pleasant learning experiences. Whatever it takes, eh?

[N. Michael]

Yes, whatever it takes is an excellent motto.

I frequently find myself having to give a strong opposing opinion in the studio. It is a fine line. I have been working on a project for some friends. They are a great bunch but I occasionally disagree with them. I usually say what I believe and let them make the final decision. It is hard to live with some of the choices, but.... I'm not really the Producer on this one, more an engineer. I believe it is the Producer's job to reel in the artist from bad decisions whenever possible. This is something I am learning to do better when hired as such.

Best of luck on your future projects...

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by N. Michael

Yes, whatever it takes is an excellent motto.

I frequently find myself having to give a strong opposing opinion in the studio. It is a fine line. I have been working on a project for some friends. They are a great bunch but I occasionally disagree with them. I usually say what I believe and let them make the final decision. It is hard to live with some of the choices, but.... I'm not really the Producer on this one, more an engineer. I believe it is the Producer's job to reel in the artist from bad decisions whenever possible. This is something I am learning to do better when hired as such.

Best of luck on your future projects...

Thanks. Obviously, one of the key points of negotiating disagreements is to avoid getting adversarial if at all possible. I'm sure I could have done better in that department when push came to shove. When passions collide...

[Reitzas]

Originally Posted by Piedpiper

.... the client decided he wanted to have his project remixed by a famous mix engineer....

Believe me, if you are good, you will be wearing the other shoes one day.

You will be "that famous mix engineer" that is called in to mix someone else's "baby".

Act in a manner now that reflects the way you would hope the engineer of that project would act.


David Reitzas : Mixer - Engineer - Producer

[Piedpiper]

Originally Posted by Reitzas

Believe me, if you are good, you will be wearing the other shoes one day.

You will be "that famous mix engineer" that is called in to mix someone else's "baby".

Act in a manner now that reflects the way you would hope the engineer of that project would act.

Good advice, with which I'm doing my best. The "famous" guy was very nice, as I was to him. The "problem" was that his priorities and taste were incompatible with my vision of the project, IMHO, in addition to the clients runaway attitude. If the client hadn't thrown a monkey wrench into the communications process we would have been able to work together just fine I'm sure.