Women In Audio: Proceed With Caution...

[Zenith]

I was searching for a thread dedicated to women in audio on this site, and I have yet to find one (even though there are plenty dedicated to engineers' bitching girlfriends/wives)...

Considering there is a nominal amount of anonymity on here, I am looking forward to some honest (and maybe painful) answers to this question:

Do you think women are as capable as men when it comes to engineering?

I am an instructor of audio engineering and music production at a fairly well known training facility. I love what I do and I am damn good at it - However, I have noticed that it takes me a little more time to earn the respect of my (mostly male) students as apposed to the other instructors. After they figure out that I am well versed in the art of recording, they sometimes hold me in higher esteem than my male coworkers. I've taught at least a thousand students and have witnessed this phenomenon over and over again... What gives fellas?

Keep Rocking,
- Zenith

[Stevil]

Women's Audio Mission

[Never1]

I think women are equally as capable in being great engineers.

The only real reason I can think of that there aren't many women in this field, is that it is such a geeky line of work. 90% of women are put off by the technical stuff, but you need to know the theory and the physics and the electronic ins and outs to make it all work.

[heyman]

Yes...!

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by Stevil

Women's Audio Mission

That is a great organization - WAM kicks ass... So does FAVE International...

[Stevil]

i don't think women suffer from any kind of physical impairment that would keep them from engineering. they have ears, fingers & the ability to make judgment calls.

-you could break out the "old boys club" argument.

-it's a numbers game & since less women are involved in rock music, fewer would make their way behind the glass.

-there's the WNBA assumptions that the girls league is lesser. (sure they can make a good layup but they cant dunk)

-an array of scenarios regarding the reality of your average studio environment vs the temperament of your average woman. resulting in a flood of ego, emotional & technical aptitude related speculations that border on misogyny.

i think you can spend all day debating the nature vs nurture of it. but at the end of the day i'd think a woman would have a better insight as to why so few of her "sisters" venture into audio. any theories?

[rhizomeman]

Originally Posted by Never1

I think women are equally as capable in being great engineers.
90% of women are put off by the technical stuff, but you need to know the theory and the physics and the electronic ins and outs to make it all work.

I like the first part of your post, but the second part sounds very sexist and frankly, bs.

The reason women have not prospered as much, and are not promoted as much, in scientific, technical, and mathematical fields is due to cultural expectations and oppression throughout history. (And no, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal/democrat - most democrats are a bunch of pussies (sorry sexist analogy)). I just believe in maximum freedom for individuals whether that means brilliant engineer or sluttiest porn star. I say go for it, and f**k what anyone else says!!

But in answer to your query, yes women are just as capable in any field. Men are overall physically stronger (and of course have dicks) other than that, differences are negligible.

[cooker]

I learned engineering from a woman at my school. I haven't met any other woman doing this job professionally but do know some students.

If I have to generalize, woman can be equally good on the technical side (the geeky part) if they have studyed enough and carryed the experience. Though I never seen one "look" comfortable even when she is while working.

The weak side would be the musical side. Its just my limited observation, even if they know some tricks, they aren't comfortable as men to decide when to use. Thats ok I guess as thats mainly the producers/composers job but it does give more trust to the people around the engineer when he/she throws a good idea.

Also not to forget musicians are more comfortable when working with woman. As for getting the job done good and quick, thats a big + specially if the musicians are not experienced.

[Stevil]

Originally Posted by cooker

I learned engineering from a woman at my school. I haven't met any other woman doing this job professionally but do know some students.

i've only met one woman seriously involved in pro audio & shes Manley.



i've spent 13 years working in technology distribution though & have met many women working in highly technical parts of the industry. so even though i agree with the assessment above that 90% of women glaze over when tech talk starts in (including most women i've dated & am related to), i think there's a large enough segment that if pro audio wasn't such an insulated industry, more might venture in.

[Zenith]

i think you can spend all day debating the nature vs nurture of it. but at the end of the day i'd think a woman would have a better idea as to why so few of her "sisters" venture into audio. any theories?[QUOTE BY Stevil]

Excellent point... You are a wise man! Personally, I started of as a composer and needed the necessary tools to commit my compositions to a medium... I realized that either I could A.) rely on others or B.) suck it up and educate myself... I opted for the latter... It just so happens that I fell in love with the whole studio environment, from plugging in the first input to ripping the scribble strip off of the console at the end of the night. I always had a passion for left brained activities - I guess I'm just built for it...

Please do not think that the intention of my thread was a plea for pity - I don't believe in victims... Women need to get off their keisters just like anyone else go for it! I am just interested on what goes on inside the male engineers' mind when it comes to working with members of the opposite sex... I love working with men personally :-D

[Stevil]

Originally Posted by Zenith

Excellent point... You are a wise man!

thanks! i try to be.

Originally Posted by Zenith

Personally, I started of as a composer and needed the necessary tools to commit my compositions to a medium... I realized that either I could A.) rely on others or B.) suck it up and educate myself... I opted for the latter...

most of the women i've known thru music went for option A.

Originally Posted by Zenith

I always had a passion for left brained activities - I guess I'm just built for it...
I am just interested on what goes on inside the male engineers' mind when it comes to working with members of the opposite sex... I love working with men personally :-D

if it is more of a "nurture" thing, hopefully you represent a growing trend because this audio sausage fest is tired.

[MonoBrow]

Geo's sound post corner

I learned a LOT from reading her thread here.

[audiostout]

Originally Posted by Zenith

I realized that either I could A.) rely on others or B.) suck it up and educate myself... I opted for the latter... It just so happens that I fell in love with the whole studio environment, from plugging in the first input to ripping the scribble strip off of the console at the end of the night. I always had a passion for left brained activities - I guess I'm just built for it...

Please do not think that the intention of my thread was a plea for pity - I don't believe in victims... Women need to get off their keisters just like anyone else go for it! I am just interested on what goes on inside the male engineers' mind when it comes to working with members of the opposite sex... I love working with men personally :-D

I pretty much started the same way. I wanted to get better and recording myself, just like you. And I got addicted to the chaos of recording since I'm a scattered brain individual.

But I've never worked with women because I've never had the chance.

[rumleymusic]

{edited because I am an a-hole}

Of course women are just as capable. I frequently feel short changed as an engineer and musician living in San Diego, because of some stereotype that says all good engineers/artists come from LA or New York. So I can imagine what it must be like to feel under appreciated as a woman in a field stereotypically dominated by men.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Ignore her fellas. It is probably just that time of the mo.....

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Of course women are just as capable. I frequently feel short changed as an engineer and musician living in San Diego, because of some stereotype that says all good engineers/artists come from LA or New York. So I can imagine what it must be like to feel under appreciated as a woman in a field stereotypically dominated by men.

You have got to be freeken' kidding me - I posted a totally valid question, open ended, no negative intentions whatsoever, and your reply was IT"S MY TIME OF THE MONTH - Sir, you have crossed the bounds of good taste... You attempt to insult me one minute just to turn around and further attempt to relate with me the next - You are talking out of both sides of your mouth...

With that said I am going to take this opportunity to walk the high road and wish you the best on your personal journey - Everyone has their own crap to deal with, including you... You may be having a bad day - I feel that you are a kind, understanding person - maybe just a little jaded by a lady or two... Talk about stereotypes - Goodness gracious... Better luck in the future with women, my good man...

[Sounds Great]

Oh, I thought maybe Playboy had a new spread coming out...



Seriously, I've the utmost respect for women pursuing any career they wish to be involved in. Why NOT audio?

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Oh, I thought maybe Playboy had a new spread coming out...

ROFL

[rhizomeman]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

Ignore her fellas. It is probably just that time of the mo......

Uh yea...what the f**k is wrong with you? That's pretty insulting. Seems like you're the one we should ignore.

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by Zenith

Do you think women are as capable as men when it comes to engineering?

Hello and welcome. The answer to your first question is yes, I do think that women are capable of performing as well as men in engineering.

However, I have noticed that it takes me a little more time to earn the respect of my (mostly male) students as apposed to the other instructors.

After they figure out that I am well versed in the art of recording, they sometimes hold me in higher esteem than my male coworkers. I've taught at least a thousand students and have witnessed this phenomenon over and over again... What gives fellas?

A very wise person once told me that sometimes, it's actually better to generalize than to offer yourself as an example. Can you generalize that statement above? How do you know that men do not have to prove themselves to get respect from their peers too? Can you elaborate on that, please?

Furthermore, how do you know that once your credentials are established, you are held in "higher esteem than males"? Really? Higher esteem? Why is that?

Spurred by your post, I checked some (US) numbers. I discovered some interesting facts. I quote the first report available by following the link above (The Changing Representation of Women in Science and Engineering). It says:

In 1975, women earned 33% of all science and engineering bachelors degrees. In 1998, women earned 49%

The numbers have improved dramatically. S&E women have risen from 1/3 to almost 1/2 of the pie in 20-odd years. I recall that the numbers are dismally different for audio engineering, but don't have the data in front of me.

This change has happened very recently. Therefore, you will still find people who cling to the old attitudes and prejudices. This forum is not immune to it. Instead of focusing on the "boys being boys" threads in the Moan Zone, I invite you to participate actively in the rest of the site.

The value of gearslutz is directly related to the quality of the posts found here. If you find something that is objectionable (i.e. something that sensible people wouldn't say in front of a woman), then you should raise your voice, and if your complaint makes sense (i.e. there's a double standard, or sexism), we'll side with you. The flip side is that if you're being a whiner, we'll probably let you know too, just like we would with anyone else. Are you up for that?

We're not really a bunch of Neanderthals. I'd welcome a lady's rant as much as I would read a guy's moan, if it's well written.

Cheers,
++aldo

[Kyle S]

Ive been teaching my girlfriend how to edit and comp lately. Ive been recording her on the piano and then I give it to her and she edits it however she wants. Next step is teaching her about preamps and mics.

But back to the topic, I know zero girls that i could have an in depth discussion of electronics or audio with. Zero, and Ive searched for these girls too. i can tell even my gf kinda starts to glaze over when im explaining something technical. She helps when i have a band over and were doing drums or something. Shes seen every aspect of making an album from setting up the drums to sending a master off. So she knows a lil but I would never imagine her getting a career in audio. I cant really call what I do a career either so whatever.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by ElMosca

Hello and welcome. The answer to your first question is yes, I do think that women are capable of performing as well as men in engineering.

A very wise person once told me that sometimes, it's actually better to generalize than to offer yourself as an example. Can you generalize that statement above? How do you know that men do not have to prove themselves to get respect from their peers too? Can you elaborate on that, please?

Furthermore, how do you know that once your credentials are established, you are held in "higher esteem than males"? Really? Higher esteem? Why is that?

Spurred by your post, I checked some (US) numbers. I discovered some interesting facts. I quote the first report available by following the link above (The Changing Representation of Women in Science and Engineering). It says:

In 1975, women earned 33% of all science and engineering bachelors degrees. In 1998, women earned 49%

The numbers have improved dramatically. S&E women have risen from 1/3 to almost 1/2 of the pie in 20-odd years. I recall that the numbers are dismally different for audio engineering, but don't have the data in front of me.

This change has happened very recently. Therefore, you will still find people who cling to the old attitudes and prejudices. This forum is not immune to it. Instead of focusing on the "boys being boys" threads in the Moan Zone, I invite you to participate actively in the rest of the site.

The value of gearslutz is directly related to the quality of the posts found here. If you find something that is objectionable (i.e. something that sensible people wouldn't say in front of a woman), then you should raise your voice, and if your complaint makes sense (i.e. there's a double standard, or sexism), we'll side with you. The flip side is that if you're being a whiner, we'll probably let you know too, just like we would with anyone else. Are you up for that?

We're not really a bunch of Neanderthals. I'd welcome a lady's rant as much as I would read a guy's moan, if it's well written.

Cheers,
++aldo

Hello ++Aldo,

Thank you for the incredibly warm welcome - Let me address your post:

Everyone in life has to prove themselves - man or woman. This is coming from my perspective, therefor it may seem a little female oriented. I am not trying to take away from trials and tribulations that males experience - That is obvious from the argumentative banter that appears on this site (all in good fun hopefully)... I should speak more generally - I am too concerned with the "I" and not the "We" and I apologize for that...

The"higher esteem" portion of my post comes from the evaluations that the students have to fill out at the end of the course. I am no spring chicken, but I receive just as high, if not higher ratings than the Jedi Masters that have been instructing for 25+ years... During the beginning of the course, I frequently receive questions such as "are you an intern" or "girls can't hear low end" (seriously - I can't make this stuff up)... I'm good, but I'm not that good... I have been teaching for several years and I see the same pattern over and over again...

I would like to become a part of the GearSlutz community and totally accept that the quality of my posts will determine my reputation. I should only hope that if I come off as a whiner (G-D forbid) that someone would put me in my rightful spot. Hopefully this is something that I will not have to experience if I interact and react thoughtfully and intelligently....

I appreciate your research - Women have come dramatically far - I am well aware of this... If it wasn't for those that came before me I doubt I would have the opportunities I have available to me now.... I am forever grateful to both the men AND the women that paved the way...

I promise that my next post will not be in the "moan zone" lol - I am an eternal optimist and am looking for nothing more than a home to share successes, failures, questions, and answers. Thank you once again for the lovely post and I look forward to more correspondences.

Warm Regards,
- Zenith

[Sqye]

.

just ask emily lazar...

...emily's a partner of a good friend of mine at the lodge, andy hong (tape-op, etc.)


my mom is an electrical engineer, worked at bell labs, and built our first stereo.

no question, women kick ass.

cheers, and welcome!

.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by rumleymusic

It is probably just that time of the mo

One of my wife's favorites:

PMS - The time of the month when women act the way men do all the time...



I could care less what bathroom my peers use; all I care about is competence and creativity.

[sahiaman]

Fact is people make assumptions of each other everyday, even if it's unintentional. But it is with merit. Each engineer brings something different in the way they perceive the music and sounds around them. This difference between men is based on their environmental up bringing. Whereas, the difference between men and women is both environmental and scientific.

Women think more with the left side of the brain, they are more verbal, and perceive more colors and are more connected to their emotion because of this. Where it really bothers me is when women in audio try to think more like a man because they think men want them to prove themselves first. I'm sure many men don't know how to deal with women in their work place, so they take that attitude, which in turn results in them try to be like us more. I believe these men and women aren't just hurting themselves but also the advancement of audio in general.

We shouldn't be asking women to be equal to the guy's way of thinking, but we should embrace the difference in their thinking as something we can learn and gain from. The women I have learned most from in audio are the ones that follow their verbal left brain strengths, rather than nonverbal physical characteristics preferred by men. And the key thing they have taught me is there are many things I can't replicate without them by my side. Those are the ones that have opened my mind enough to show me that I need their help and it's not something I can 'learn' just by being around them. I can't think like them, and I need them around to help access that part of my thinking.

It's not a man's world in audio, and it's not a woman's world in audio. It's an us world. And the longer we both keep separate, or try to adapt to the other sexes way of working and thinking, the more we sell ourselves short.

We can't ask women to adapt to our world because it just isn't fair to them. And if it definitely not fair to us when we ask them to adapt.

[mrlouie]

I teach a 9 week class on Saturdays at the college in Long Beach, i do this for fun and kinda my way of giving back to the school because thats where i learned about recording many years ago, the instructor for my first beginning recording class was female.

I dont think the main problem is being female, the problem may be a lack of experience in the way of actually having worked on albums and/or in studios and then plus being female, it takes the students longer to have faith and trust that you know what you are teaching them.

An example would be if you were Sylvia Massy the students could care less about you being female, they would know that you made some great sounding records and they would trust you from the start.

My students trust me from the start not because im male but because of all the experience i have from working in studios/on albums for about 13 years. The first day of each new class i tell them about the studios i worked for, some albums i was an asst. engineer, some i recorded/mixed, and now the ones i have mastered, this lets then know about my experience in the field they are trying to learn.

On the first day you need to establish your experience to the students so they realise the person who is teaching them knows what they are talking about. Tell them about projects you have engineered/mixed and studios you have worked at.

The more real world experience working on albums you have the better it will be for your teaching career, you will always have this problem of lack of respect if you dont have much experience to back up your teaching.

Hope this helps,



louie

[ElMosca]

Originally Posted by Zenith

I am an eternal optimist and am looking for nothing more than a home to share successes, failures, questions, and answers. Thank you once again for the lovely post and I look forward to more correspondences.

Thank you, and again, welcome. I'm glad you decided to stick around, not just because you're a woman (we do need more female audio engineers contributing here), but also, because you write well and are open to other people's opinions.

Looking forward to your future posts.

Best,
++aldo

[Darwin James]

<Will marry the first cute female engineer I meet.>

[Gilli C]

Hey,

I'm female & lurk on gearslutz every day, and maybe possibly sometimes more than once a day , but don't post that often however.

I'm self employed doing a mix of studio mixing, live sound (mostly FOH) and sound design for theatre. I have a small mixing room & mix analogue on a PM2000. I edit in P.Tools and mix off a Tascam MX2424. I'm planning on upgrading to Rader.

heres my myspace: Gil Eva Craig on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos (the music tracks are from theatre shows)


I don't dwell too much as to why theres so few women in audio but do wonder if it may be as simple as women just don't process technical info the same way as guys: not that they can't but perhaps there is enough of a difference in the brain, and its a bell curve kind of thing - at each end theres a few people exhibiting the extremes.

kind of like those rare straight guys that have a better eye for fashion than the average chick, & always notice when you come in fresh from the hairdressers...at the other end of another bell curve..

anyhoo, Zenith, its good to see another women here.

Cheers

Gil

[Never1]

Originally Posted by rhizomeman

I like the first part of your post, but the second part sounds very sexist and frankly, bs.

The reason women have not prospered as much, and are not promoted as much, in scientific, technical, and mathematical fields is due to cultural expectations and oppression throughout history. (And no, I'm not a bleeding heart liberal/democrat - most democrats are a bunch of pussies (sorry sexist analogy)). I just believe in maximum freedom for individuals whether that means brilliant engineer or sluttiest porn star. I say go for it, and f**k what anyone else says!!

But in answer to your query, yes women are just as capable in any field. Men are overall physically stronger (and of course have dicks) other than that, differences are negligible.

oh come on, now...

You can't tell me that what I said was B.S.

The point is that 90% of women aren't into engineering and audio because they don't find it interesting.

They are fully capable of learning and being good at it, but most lack any interest in it.

Start talking tech stuff with a girl and watch her eyes glaze over. This isn't sexist at all... it's based on facts and observation.

Much the same, when women start talking about certain things and our eyes glaze over. We are different but fully capable of performing equally well.

[MikeSV]

Originally Posted by Never1

oh come on, now...

You can't tell me that what I said was B.S.

The point is that 90% of women aren't into engineering and audio because they don't find it interesting.

They are fully capable of learning and being good at it, but most lack any interest in it.

Start talking tech stuff with a girl and watch her eyes glaze over. This isn't sexist at all... it's based on facts and observation.

Much the same, when women start talking about certain things and our eyes glaze over. We are different but fully capable of performing equally well.

I think your point is more than valid. It's the same reason why you don't see alot of women go into computer science, auto repair, etc. It has nothing to do with whether or not they could do it (they absolutely could), it's just a difference in interests. Same could be said for most men and certain fields of work. It's not sexist, just the truth. But if a women is interested in audio engineering, then by all means she should have just the same opportunity to enter that field of work.