Women In Audio: Proceed With Caution...

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by Brian!

Oh, right. So what did you have to contribute to this thread?

Look in the mirror, buddyfuuck

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by olivia_nb

you're not just ignorant, you're rude too.

Your're not just boring, you are delusionalfuuck

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Zenith

You have to understand this is not about "craving" respect - It is about my students trusting me. If they respect you, then more than likely they trust you - If they trust you, they will assimilate the information you are providing them. This has nothing to do with me - I could give two shits less... I just want to create an environment that is conducive to education.

I do see where you are coming from however - Humility is a difficult trait to find in the entertainment industry. If you are good at what you do, generally you keep your mouth shut about it - I just posed a question and am not looking for personal gratification...

By the way, I said I was damn good specifically to demonstrate that I am not looking for pity. I will be the first to state that you never stop learning and there is always room for improvement... I'm good but not that good lol...

All you have to do is to know is that YOU are very good at what you do. If someone misses out on what you can teach them because of their own close-mindedness that's their loss.

[RTR]

Originally Posted by Zenith

I was searching for a thread dedicated to women in audio on this site, and I have yet to find one (even though there are plenty dedicated to engineers' bitching girlfriends/wives)...

Considering there is a nominal amount of anonymity on here, I am looking forward to some honest (and maybe painful) answers to this question:

Do you think women are as capable as men when it comes to engineering?

I am an instructor of audio engineering and music production at a fairly well known training facility. I love what I do and I am damn good at it - However, I have noticed that it takes me a little more time to earn the respect of my (mostly male) students as apposed to the other instructors. After they figure out that I am well versed in the art of recording, they sometimes hold me in higher esteem than my male coworkers. I've taught at least a thousand students and have witnessed this phenomenon over and over again... What gives fellas?

Keep Rocking,
- Zenith

What..are we supposed to send e-mails to every woman engineer asking them to join GS..why dont you ask them why they are not here..how the hell are we supposed to know..women want equal treatment but post crap like this..I think equal would be to post and mix in on GS as an engineer..but women do need attention right...It had to be said.

PS> why is there no thread for midget engineers, are there ears not as good..what gives guy's?..ughhh

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by RTR

What..are we supposed to send e-mails to every woman engineer asking them to join GS..why dont you ask them why they are not here..how the hell are we supposed to know..women want equal treatment but post crap like this..I think equal would be to post and mix in on GS as an engineer..but women do need attention right...It had to be said.

PS> why is there no thread for midget engineers, are there ears not as good..what gives guy's?..ughhh

.

dude, EVERYONE needs attention.

in fact, you just proved this with your hostile post.

.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

Your're not just boring, you are delusionalfuuck

.

real mature, people...

can we PLEASE keep some level of respect here - for once.

why are some of you guys such jerks? insecurity? what? i don't get it...

...does EVERYTHING have to be a pissing contest?

can't you have discourse for five minutes without flaming and insulting each other?

.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by RTR

What..are we supposed to send e-mails to every woman engineer asking them to join GS..why dont you ask them why they are not here..how the hell are we supposed to know..women want equal treatment but post crap like this..I think equal would be to post and mix in on GS as an engineer..but women do need attention right...It had to be said.

PS> why is there no thread for midget engineers, are there ears not as good..what gives guy's?..ughhh

Wow, you have some issues way beyond women in audio.

Good luck with that.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by AWrestoration

wow, thanks for reminding me why i got out of the entertainment industry.

i've been doing live and studio sound for thirteen years. i have a degree in audio technology, and i've worked in studios, listening rooms, ballrooms, major festivals, and club booths all over the country.

for thirteen years i got used to being sexually harassed on a weekly, if not daily, basis. most men in the industry can't deal with having a woman at the console. "chicks can't mix;" sound familiar, gents?

the reason there aren't more women in the industry is because it's a hostile work environment. 60% of the men you work with sexualize the working relationship. they make comments about your appearance, they hit on you when you're trying to set up a mic, they try to touch your ass or tits, and when you're not interested, they call you a bitch and complain to the manager.

imagine that, guys, if you can. imagine that, at least once a week at the studio or club where you work, a man tries to "accidentally" brush against your crotch. if you say anything, you're being "difficult to work with."

of the three women in my college audio course, i was the only one that didn't drop out, due to sexual harassment from the instructor.

it takes a tough lady to deal with all this. plus, a woman has to be three times as good as her male peers to get accepted. the women who have made it in the field are * exceptional. * and there are plenty of great ones, especially in studio settings (where alcohol isn't usually involved )

that's why there aren't more women in audio, despite the fact that many of us love to solder and read circuit board diagrams, and can tell instantly where in the signal path your short is, by the sound.

i'm doing audio restoration now. i get to geek out, make shit sound better, troubleshoot, and find creative solutions to audio problems, and no one's called me a bitch at work, or told me i'm "much hotter than the last engineer" in 9 months. ladies who are still in the entertainment industry: i salute you. you love what you're doing, or you wouldn't be doing it.

.

i feel really sorry that this happened to you. this is a travesty.

i'm deeply ashamed of the many guys who just can't be respectful.

it's 2009, felluz. get a freeking clue...

...remember the golden rule of ethics...


OTOH, i'm happy you found a better situation for yourself - which sounds cool!

.

[_rd]

Originally Posted by Sqye

dude, EVERYONE needs attention.

Do you even realize that you just insulted a lot of people?

[_rd]

Originally Posted by Brian!

And you still didn't answer my question. Ignoring that women around the world have not had the same educational opportunities as men and along with that, the fact that women were basically only either housewives or secretaries up until the last 50 (?) years is simply not representing the entire picture.

There must be some serious cultural differences. In Germany, women have more opportunities to chase a career in whatever they want, because men have to spend roughly one year in compulsory military service after high school while women don't (but they CAN, if they choose to).

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by _rd

Do you even realize that you just insulted a lot of people?

.

are you being serious? sarcastic?...maybe you could be kind enough to point out exactly how i've "insulted all these people", please?

...or is there some linguistic sublety i'm missing here?

i was seriously NOT trying to "insult many people" AT ALL........quite the opposite!

.

[circleserratica]

To be honest, I know next to nothing about audio engineering compared to the majority of the people on this forum, but reading what women in the industry have to say is both grounding and inspiring. Everything I know right now I taught myself from scratch....on the most part because none of my friends (predominantly women and gay men) share this interest. Knowing now that there are organizations such as the WAM is such a sigh of relief in an industry that generally isn't very female-friendly (a lesson quickly learned by being a film major). Though, the generally positive response from the guys in this thread is also comforting. Just goes to show gender stereotypes, while steadfast, are being eroded over time.

[_rd]

Originally Posted by Sqye

.

are you being serious? sarcastic?...maybe you could be kind enough to point out exactly how i've "insulted all these people", please?

...or is there some linguistic sublety i'm missing here?

i was seriously NOT trying to "insult many people" AT ALL........quite the opposite!

.

I (and I see myself included in "everyone") just refuse to be put into the same corner as people needing attention.
Reading your response, I am pretty sure you didn't mean it that way though.

[AWrestoration]

hey all,

i just wanted to say that, a few knee-jerk responses aside, this is a great thread. it sounds like some folks are getting to talk openly about gender issues in the sound industry, and some other folks are getting to think about things in a new way.

let's keep it positive, and keep it going! and thanks for giving me a chance to rant. that's what the moan zone's for, right?

-AW

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by RTR

What..are we supposed to send e-mails to every woman engineer asking them to join GS..why dont you ask them why they are not here..how the hell are we supposed to know..women want equal treatment but post crap like this..I think equal would be to post and mix in on GS as an engineer..but women do need attention right...It had to be said.

PS> why is there no thread for midget engineers, are there ears not as good..what gives guy's?..ughhh

Dude - Calm down - If you didn't like the topic of the thread you shouldn't have commented on it... Apparently there is some sort of interest, otherwise this monster wouldn't be pushing 138 posts - I never intended for it to go this far... I've moved on and am very much enjoying participating in other discussions - I would suggest you do the same...

P.S. I guess we are in the "moan zone" on the other hand lol...

[kirkhawley]

In general, men are specialists, women are generalists. Men are hard-wired to be good at obsessing on one thing until they know all about it. Women are hard-wired to handle everything else while guys obsess about one thing. Pre-historic societies - usually the guys were obsessed with hunting and that's all they did while the women took care of the kids, kept the fires burning, cooked, made stuff, ran the camp... That's why women are smarter, more mature and more socially adept than us. It's a good thing we're stronger and meaner or we'd be totally screwed.

I learned this watching ducks. I found I started obsessing with learning stuff about their behavior, then realized that no woman I've ever known would sit there like an idiot watching stupid ducks.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by kirkhawley

I learned this watching ducks. I found I started obsessing with learning stuff about their behavior, then realized that no woman I've ever known would sit there like an idiot watching stupid ducks.

[vonrichter]

A lot of male/female stereotypes that people treat as gospel are merely self-reinforcing arbitrary cultural fashions. They are subject to evolution in myriad directions over time, and can be completely turned upside down depending on a given culture.

In 2009, it's about time we ditch the whole gender identification in areas where it's irrelevant.

(Obviously physiological differences exist between men/women, but we're not talking about basketball or something, we're talking about moving faders and using ears.)

[Gilli C]

Originally Posted by kirkhawley

In general, men are specialists, women are generalists. Men are hard-wired to be good at obsessing on one thing until they know all about it. Women are hard-wired to handle everything else while guys obsess about one thing. Pre-historic societies - usually the guys were obsessed with hunting and that's all they did while the women took care of the kids, kept the fires burning, cooked, made stuff, ran the camp... That's why women are smarter, more mature and more socially adept than us. It's a good thing we're stronger and meaner or we'd be totally screwed.

I learned this watching ducks. I found I started obsessing with learning stuff about their behavior, then realized that no woman I've ever known would sit there like an idiot watching stupid ducks.

Said it before I think its a bell curve kind of thing , and Im surely at one end of it. I'm certainly not hardwired to multitask. It takes intense effort for me to remember and do the things in life to keep home , body and mind together. Quite stressful actually.

I was bought up in a small rural community, and the expectation was I'd marry a farmer and have a passel of kids after a brief stint working as a secretary. what a disaster that would have been.....

[Zenith]

Damn it - I can run an ICON blindfolded, but I can't figure out how to embed a pic - For crying out loud!

[Sounds Great]

Two ways to embed a picture:

If it is an internet link, paste the address, highlight it, and click the little [insert image] icon above that has mountains on it.

Otherwise, save the picture to you desktop, click below where it says [manage attachments] and attach it to the post.

[Zenith]

Thanks so much This was just too appropriate not to share!

[Sounds Great]

Thanks Zenith.

[Sounds Great]

Actually, part one of my instructions for posting a picture were incorrect. That was the old system. Now you just click on the picture icon and just put the picture's URL in there and click on it.

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by Sounds Great

Actually, part one of my instructions for posting a picture were incorrect. That was the old system. Now you just click on the picture icon and just put the picture's URL in there and click on it.

my only revision on the Women section would be that the on/off switch wouldn't be labeled and would periodically change without notification and would require at least 5 years of operation to even come close to guessing where it is next...
The Men's on/off switch would also be permanently broken in the "on" position.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by olivia_nb

my only revision on the Women section would be that the on/off switch wouldn't be labeled and would periodically change without notification and would require at least 5 years of operation to even come close to guessing where it is next...
The Men's on/off switch would also be permanently broken in the "on" position.

Hilarious (ROFL) - I'll be the first to admit that half the time I don't even know where my "on" switch is located (and tends to be intermittent at best)...

[Larry Mal]

Guys... you've got to be cool. From what I can tell, the field of audio has been so hostile towards women that they simply stopped showing up for it. So now, when one does, y'all act a fool, and scare them right off again! I'm not saying it's as crass as rubbing up against them and acting out sexually, but some comments- the German gentleman's in particular- are just bizarre. Here's a quote:

"I'll stay political correct here and say that it's just my gut feeling (...or maybe a different steroidal hormone environment and perinatal androgen receptor distribution in the respective brain regions, especially in the phase of the sexual differentation of the individual's brain, among others)."

I mean, can you imagine what it is to have it discussed what the limitations of your brain and emotional chemistry are? When it has been well established that women are as capable of doing any job as a man can, even in fields that they have historically been left out of?

Let's look at medicine. There was a time when women were not considered able to be doctors, and in some countries, they still are. There were plenty of theories about why not, and plenty of reasons why it just wasn't possible for women to practice medicine. But lo and behold, a lot of women decided that they could be doctors, and now in most developed nations it is more or less not exceptional.

So enough with the brain theories. It's all a bunch of supposition, and you'll notice that it is usually not directed at men- no one funds research into discovering the limitations of the male brain and emotional chemistry, as men are shown to be successful in all fields- but why? In the one example of a female dominated industry that is coming to mind, nursing, it was never supposed that a man couldn't be a nurse (this is the United States I refer to), but simply that it was a woman's job, and what sort of man would want to do it? Men were doctors, women, nurses.

Here is my suggestion: in the future, everybody, men and women, simply stop considering the differences between the male and female mind pertaining to jobs. It isn't something that can be proven in any way, since no one can unravel the effects of culture on what sort of field someone goes into, and thus, no sort of "theories" regarding why a woman wouldn't find technical audio work very interesting because women are more into "feelings" than technical work, or some warmed over bullshit about how humans developed in hunter and gatherer days- and the societal structure that worked then- and how it applies to what jobs women and men feel they are going to go for. Human society is very fluid, and what worked when men were hunting mastodon, and the average child didn't live past infancy, isn't relevant to how society functions today.

There is some sexual dimorphism in the human species, but it doesn't exist in the brain. Or if it does, then in very slight and currently unprovable ways. The fact that a woman- any woman- became a doctor only means that it is possible for women to be doctors. The same is true in audio, and it really must be more societal reasons why more women don't go into it. You've heard some on this thread. If anyone is interested in knowing more about human sexual dimorphism, this is a great and fun read:

Why is Sex Fun? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And boys, chill...

YouTube - Temptations - Treat Her Like A Lady

Or next thing you know, you're at the console, and one of the few women in the field walk in, and you're freaking out, saying stupid shit, thinking you're turning her on by rubbing into her and shit, and she's posting on a thread like this, and you know how women tell their friends everything...

[Zenith]

Well said Mr. Mal Wonderful post...

[Thermionic]

I've never been able to comprehend why there are so few women in audio. It's pretty odd IMHO. FWIW, as someone who interacts with beta testers and in 'shoot out' situations, I've consistently found that women are better at hearing nuances and tend to have more acute hearing in general (numerous studies, going back years, suggest women may have a genetic disposition towards having more acute hearing (my empirical research would support this) Try Google). If I'm demo-ing something to a group in a studio and want someone to pick up quickly on the hallmarks of a piece of kit, I make a beeline for the female. My life would be easier if there were more women in audio.

I can't think of many female AEs. However, the few I can think of tend to be successful.

(forgive me if this point's been made - I have to run and have posted quickly without analysing whole thread).

Justin (excuse typos)

AND I used a recording that she engineered as an example of a good recording for a class I taught at SAE NYC. I always made sure I pointed this out to the female students (of which there weren't always too many). Isn't Alicia Keys' engineer female?

+1 for WAM!

Hillary is a nice person and a great engineer!