Women In Audio: Proceed With Caution...

[AWrestoration]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

cool, she looks great on the console as well....

wow, thanks for reminding me why i got out of the entertainment industry.

i've been doing live and studio sound for thirteen years. i have a degree in audio technology, and i've worked in studios, listening rooms, ballrooms, major festivals, and club booths all over the country.

for thirteen years i got used to being sexually harassed on a weekly, if not daily, basis. most men in the industry can't deal with having a woman at the console. "chicks can't mix;" sound familiar, gents?

the reason there aren't more women in the industry is because it's a hostile work environment. 60% of the men you work with sexualize the working relationship. they make comments about your appearance, they hit on you when you're trying to set up a mic, they try to touch your ass or tits, and when you're not interested, they call you a bitch and complain to the manager.

imagine that, guys, if you can. imagine that, at least once a week at the studio or club where you work, a man tries to "accidentally" brush against your crotch. if you say anything, you're being "difficult to work with."

of the three women in my college audio course, i was the only one that didn't drop out, due to sexual harassment from the instructor.

it takes a tough lady to deal with all this. plus, a woman has to be three times as good as her male peers to get accepted. the women who have made it in the field are * exceptional. * and there are plenty of great ones, especially in studio settings (where alcohol isn't usually involved )

that's why there aren't more women in audio, despite the fact that many of us love to solder and read circuit board diagrams, and can tell instantly where in the signal path your short is, by the sound.

i'm doing audio restoration now. i get to geek out, make shit sound better, troubleshoot, and find creative solutions to audio problems, and no one's called me a bitch at work, or told me i'm "much hotter than the last engineer" in 9 months. ladies who are still in the entertainment industry: i salute you. you love what you're doing, or you wouldn't be doing it.

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by AWrestoration

wow, thanks for reminding me why i got out of the entertainment industry.

i've been doing live and studio sound for thirteen years. i have a degree in audio technology, and i've worked in studios, listening rooms, ballrooms, major festivals, and club booths all over the country.

for thirteen years i got used to being sexually harassed on a weekly, if not daily, basis. most men in the industry can't deal with having a woman at the console. "chicks can't mix;" sound familiar, gents?

the reason there aren't more women in the industry is because it's a hostile work environment. 60% of the men you work with sexualize the working relationship. they make comments about your appearance, they hit on you when you're trying to set up a mic, they try to touch your ass or tits, and when you're not interested, they call you a bitch and complain to the manager.

imagine that, guys, if you can. imagine that, at least once a week at the studio or club where you work, a man tries to "accidentally" brush against your crotch. if you say anything, you're being "difficult to work with."

of the three women in my college audio course, i was the only one that didn't drop out, due to sexual harassment from the instructor.

it takes a tough lady to deal with all this. plus, a woman has to be three times as good as her male peers to get accepted. the women who have made it in the field are * exceptional. * and there are plenty of great ones, especially in studio settings (where alcohol isn't usually involved )

that's why there aren't more women in audio, despite the fact that many of us love to solder and read circuit board diagrams, and can tell instantly where in the signal path your short is, by the sound.

i'm doing audio restoration now. i get to geek out, make shit sound better, troubleshoot, and find creative solutions to audio problems, and no one's called me a bitch at work, or told me i'm "much hotter than the last engineer" in 9 months. ladies who are still in the entertainment industry: i salute you. you love what you're doing, or you wouldn't be doing it.

that sucks. This is true outside the entertainment industry, but for some reason a lot of strides have been made everywhere else in the last 20 years that the control room is still catching up to, which is probably why you see more women in post production than in music production.
It was good you were a trail blazer and good that you recognized enough was enough, you shouldn't have to endure that kind of nasty and gross interaction at work of all places (anywhere really, but you get the point...)
It's been said many times before in other threads, but you really do get a microcosm of the industry here on this board and there's plenty of chest beating boy's locker room mentality around here.
glad you hit stride with what you're into though.

[CREAMY WILLIAMS]

Originally Posted by AWrestoration

wow, thanks for reminding me why i got out of the entertainment industry.

i've been doing live and studio sound for thirteen years. i have a degree in audio technology, and i've worked in studios, listening rooms, ballrooms, major festivals, and club booths all over the country.

for thirteen years i got used to being sexually harassed on a weekly, if not daily, basis. most men in the industry can't deal with having a woman at the console. "chicks can't mix;" sound familiar, gents?

the reason there aren't more women in the industry is because it's a hostile work environment. 60% of the men you work with sexualize the working relationship. they make comments about your appearance, they hit on you when you're trying to set up a mic, they try to touch your ass or tits, and when you're not interested, they call you a bitch and complain to the manager.

imagine that, guys, if you can. imagine that, at least once a week at the studio or club where you work, a man tries to "accidentally" brush against your crotch. if you say anything, you're being "difficult to work with."

of the three women in my college audio course, i was the only one that didn't drop out, due to sexual harassment from the instructor.

it takes a tough lady to deal with all this. plus, a woman has to be three times as good as her male peers to get accepted. the women who have made it in the field are * exceptional. * and there are plenty of great ones, especially in studio settings (where alcohol isn't usually involved )

that's why there aren't more women in audio, despite the fact that many of us love to solder and read circuit board diagrams, and can tell instantly where in the signal path your short is, by the sound.

i'm doing audio restoration now. i get to geek out, make shit sound better, troubleshoot, and find creative solutions to audio problems, and no one's called me a bitch at work, or told me i'm "much hotter than the last engineer" in 9 months. ladies who are still in the entertainment industry: i salute you. you love what you're doing, or you wouldn't be doing it.

respect -

[SFTPH]

I hate to say it but us men think with our johnny and unless you work with gay dudes there will be that sexual tension, however so slight or subconscious it may be. It takes us fellers a little time to get past the lust and get on to the respect.

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

I hate to say it but us men think with our johnny and unless you work with gay dudes there will be that sexual tension, however so slight or subconscious it may be. It takes us fellers a little time to get past the lust and get on to the respect.

I get what you're saying, but the chasm between what you just said and AWrestoration's experiences couldn't be jumped by Evel Knievel...

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by olivia_nb

I get what you're saying, but the chasm between what you just said and AWrestoration's experiences couldn't be jumped by Evel Knievel...

I did not read any posts but the original so i missed that one. I was referring to a more professional atmosphere i.e. making records in a big room where you are with the same small group of people for a few weeks. Get better security if you are getting harassed @ live gigs. I've seen fools rolled for doing a lot less than groping female employees.

[_rd]

Originally Posted by Zenith

Do you think women are as capable as men when it comes to engineering?

At engineering in general? I don't think so. At audio engineering? I think so, as it's not an exact science like other engineering crafts.

I love what I do and I am damn good at it - However, I have noticed that it takes me a little more time to earn the respect of my (mostly male) students as apposed to the other instructors. After they figure out that I am well versed in the art of recording, they sometimes hold me in higher esteem than my male coworkers. I've taught at least a thousand students and have witnessed this phenomenon over and over again... What gives fellas?

Why are you craving others respect so much? Most individuals (and this goes for both genders) I've met in my personal and business life who were damn good at something 1) were humble enough not to tell everyone 2) didn't give a damn about the respect of others.

[Brian!]

Originally Posted by _rd

At engineering in general? I don't think so. At audio engineering? I think so, as it's not an exact science like other engineering crafts.

uhh what?

[_rd]

Originally Posted by Brian!

uhh what?

An exact science is any field of science capable of accurate quantitative expression or precise predictions and rigorous methods of testing hypotheses, especially reproducible experiments involving quantifiable predictions and measurements. Mathematics, physics, chemistry, as well as parts of biology, psychology, and the social sciences can be considered as exact sciences in this sense. (Wikipedia)

[Brian!]

Originally Posted by _rd

An exact science is any field of science capable of accurate quantitative expression or precise predictions and rigorous methods of testing hypotheses, especially reproducible experiments involving quantifiable predictions and measurements. Mathematics, physics, chemistry, as well as parts of biology, psychology, and the social sciences can be considered as exact sciences in this sense. (Wikipedia)

Please explain what prevents women from being as capable as men in those fields.

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by Brian!

Please explain what prevents women from being as capable as men in those fields.

I can tell you that. Most women don't care about cold hard facts, they care about how those facts make them and others feel. And then they like to talk about those feelings. Women could do those jobs but they generally don't want em.

[_rd]

Originally Posted by Brian!

Please explain what prevents women from being as capable as men in those fields.

I'll stay political correct here and say that it's just my gut feeling (...or maybe a different steroidal hormone environment and perinatal androgen receptor distribution in the respective brain regions, especially in the phase of the sexual differentation of the individual's brain, among others).

[_rd]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

I can tell you that. Most women don't care about cold hard facts, they care about how those facts make them and others feel. And then they like to talk about those feelings. Women could do those jobs but they generally don't want em.

True. And music is meant to make people feel, so I'd be glad to see more women doing e.g. mixing. I could even imagine that women are better at capturing a golden moment as they are generally better at realizing subtle mood changes, for example.

[AllAboutTone]

Why lie, just giving credit where credit is due, no way I would do the things that you have been through in the studio etc, there is a creative session at hand and tracking/mixing comes first, I never mix session work with sex, believe me I have had women come on to me in session, rubbing tits all over me etc, I try to be cool about it and push forward, romance is for off the clock, not to been done in session work......you go girl....

Originally Posted by AWrestoration

wow, thanks for reminding me why i got out of the entertainment industry.

i've been doing live and studio sound for thirteen years. i have a degree in audio technology, and i've worked in studios, listening rooms, ballrooms, major festivals, and club booths all over the country.

for thirteen years i got used to being sexually harassed on a weekly, if not daily, basis. most men in the industry can't deal with having a woman at the console. "chicks can't mix;" sound familiar, gents?

the reason there aren't more women in the industry is because it's a hostile work environment. 60% of the men you work with sexualize the working relationship. they make comments about your appearance, they hit on you when you're trying to set up a mic, they try to touch your ass or tits, and when you're not interested, they call you a bitch and complain to the manager.

imagine that, guys, if you can. imagine that, at least once a week at the studio or club where you work, a man tries to "accidentally" brush against your crotch. if you say anything, you're being "difficult to work with."

of the three women in my college audio course, i was the only one that didn't drop out, due to sexual harassment from the instructor.

it takes a tough lady to deal with all this. plus, a woman has to be three times as good as her male peers to get accepted. the women who have made it in the field are * exceptional. * and there are plenty of great ones, especially in studio settings (where alcohol isn't usually involved )

that's why there aren't more women in audio, despite the fact that many of us love to solder and read circuit board diagrams, and can tell instantly where in the signal path your short is, by the sound.

i'm doing audio restoration now. i get to geek out, make shit sound better, troubleshoot, and find creative solutions to audio problems, and no one's called me a bitch at work, or told me i'm "much hotter than the last engineer" in 9 months. ladies who are still in the entertainment industry: i salute you. you love what you're doing, or you wouldn't be doing it.

[mdme_sadie]

What stops you is you, you have to be thick skinned, you have to be able to control others and yourself and you have to build working relationships out of mutual trust and take the fact that yes there are in fact physical and mental differences between different people and that not all generalizations lack any spark of truth, but that you can get over many of those differences both real and of perception.

Given this you can (in any field) basically differentiate yourself on terms of quality, service, professionalism, final output... ability basically. The moment you start differentiating yourself on something other than this though you're a sham.

There is no good reason why any woman should not be able to differentiate herself through ability in this field, therefore this topic doesn't even need to exist as it's basically there to make a presence felt, a pretense as the answer to the question is self evident, so keep work and politics separate if you have any self respect (or at least any respect for your work).

[Brian!]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

I can tell you that. Most women don't care about cold hard facts, they care about how those facts make them and others feel. And then they like to talk about those feelings. Women could do those jobs but they generally don't want em.

So every single woman on Earth is born like this and it has nothing to do with culture at all?

[_rd]

Originally Posted by Brian!

So every single woman on Earth is born like this and it has nothing to do with culture at all?

It's a genetic predisposition that culture and society can neglect or support.

[bwlee131]

I think there is no question that women are equally as capable of working as an audio engineer. I had the opportunity to meet with Leslie Anne Jones. She is the director of music recording and scoring for George Lucus at Skywalker Sound.

The fact is that audio engineering is a field heavily dominated by men. So unfortunately people will have preconceived notions as to what women are capable of.

[rhizomeman]

As a musician I never really thought about this until this thread - plenty of brilliant female musicians I have had the pleasure of working with.

Probably the audio "industry" just needs to catch up with the rest of the fields. Many, many more female doctors today than 20 years ago, which I think is great!

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by _rd

It's a genetic predisposition that culture and society can neglect or support.

I would be interested to see the white papers on this topic... if there are any, but then you already admitted it's your gut feeling, i.e. your own societal prejudices...
I could make many stereotypes about Germans here to illustrate my point, but I'll abstain from that sort of behavior.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by _rd

At engineering in general? I don't think so. At audio engineering? I think so, as it's not an exact science like other engineering crafts.



Why are you craving others respect so much? Most individuals (and this goes for both genders) I've met in my personal and business life who were damn good at something 1) were humble enough not to tell everyone 2) didn't give a damn about the respect of others.

You have to understand this is not about "craving" respect - It is about my students trusting me. If they respect you, then more than likely they trust you - If they trust you, they will assimilate the information you are providing them. This has nothing to do with me - I could give two shits less... I just want to create an environment that is conducive to education.

I do see where you are coming from however - Humility is a difficult trait to find in the entertainment industry. If you are good at what you do, generally you keep your mouth shut about it - I just posed a question and am not looking for personal gratification...

By the way, I said I was damn good specifically to demonstrate that I am not looking for pity. I will be the first to state that you never stop learning and there is always room for improvement... I'm good but not that good lol...

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by Brian!

So every single woman on Earth is born like this and it has nothing to do with culture at all?

Notice how I said most and not all. May I suggest less hanging out here and more hanging out with women.

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by olivia_nb

I would be interested to see the white papers on this topic... if there are any, but then you already admitted it's your gut feeling, i.e. your own societal prejudices...
I could make many stereotypes about Germans here to illustrate my point, but I'll abstain from that sort of behavior.

You must not really know many hetero women over 25.

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by _rd

True. And music is meant to make people feel, so I'd be glad to see more women doing e.g. mixing. I could even imagine that women are better at capturing a golden moment as they are generally better at realizing subtle mood changes, for example.

Writing and playing music is not the same as engineering sound

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

You must not really know many hetero women over 25.

take your head out of your rear before posting for a change, I wasn't even responding to your ignorance, I was responding to the guy that claimed women were proven genetically different enough they would perform at a different level than men (after saying as much that it was his gut feeling). He was talking nature, you were talking nuture; the same mentality that suggests girls get bored by math and science or are too emotional to lead a nation, when all the evidence proves that things are moving in the opposite direction.
If you ever leave the cocoon of the studio you'll see a lot of progress being made in the real world in favor of women's equality that isn't reflected in the control room yet... I agree that traditionally women (whether they wanted those jobs or not) did not enter scientifically rigorous fields. The facts are changing this, eventually that will change attitudes. It's ridiculous to even suggest that physiologically men and women are so different that there could be a measurable difference in aptitude or intelligence based solely on hormones or whatever you want to make the influence out to be. There are measurable differences in testosterone and estrogen between men and between women, you would probably find some men and some women come close to meeting in the middle on things like hormones, especially later in life. So what else could we chalk it up to if it isn't nature?
Nurture. And that's refelcted in attitudes.

[jeremy.c.]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

Notice how I said most and not all. May I suggest less hanging out here and more hanging out with women.

you're not just ignorant, you're rude too.

[Brian!]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

Notice how I said most and not all. May I suggest less hanging out here and more hanging out with women.

And you still didn't answer my question. Ignoring that women around the world have not had the same educational opportunities as men and along with that, the fact that women were basically only either housewives or secretaries up until the last 50 (?) years is simply not representing the entire picture.

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by Brian!

And you still didn't answer my question. Ignoring that women around the world have not had the same educational opportunities as men and along with that, the fact that women were basically only either housewives or secretaries up until the last 50 (?) years is simply not representing the entire picture.

It is not my job to teach you how the world works. Ask your parents.

[Brian!]

Originally Posted by SFTPH

It is not my job to teach you how the world works. Ask your parents.

Oh, right. So what did you have to contribute to this thread?

[SFTPH]

Originally Posted by Brian!

And you still didn't answer my question. Ignoring that women around the world have not had the same educational opportunities as men and along with that, the fact that women were basically only either housewives or secretaries up until the last 50 (?) years is simply not representing the entire picture.

It is not my job to teach you how the world works. Ask your parents.