Women In Audio: Proceed With Caution...

[-silent-sam-]

Originally Posted by Zenith

I was searching for a thread dedicated to women in audio on this site, and I have yet to find one (even though there are plenty dedicated to engineers' bitching girlfriends/wives)...

Considering there is a nominal amount of anonymity on here, I am looking forward to some honest (and maybe painful) answers to this question:

Do you think women are as capable as men when it comes to engineering?

I am an instructor of audio engineering and music production at a fairly well known training facility. I love what I do and I am damn good at it - However, I have noticed that it takes me a little more time to earn the respect of my (mostly male) students as apposed to the other instructors. After they figure out that I am well versed in the art of recording, they sometimes hold me in higher esteem than my male coworkers. I've taught at least a thousand students and have witnessed this phenomenon over and over again... What gives fellas?

Keep Rocking,
- Zenith

First off I think women are equal to men in the studio.... Like someone else said if your good your good, if your bad your bad.

Statistics also show that women in general have better, longer lasting hearing then men... however this statistic may be based on he fact that men tend to do more physically demanding, and noisy work then women do... If so as women are liberated more and more and start doing the same work that men do, this will not apply. But for now this is what they say....so that right there is one reason why a woman might actually have an advantage over a man.

ANYWAYS now that we have established that I personally believe that men are equal to women and vice versa here is my opinion on your situation, and the situation of women in the recording industry in general.

Women have come a long way in some ways and they haven't in other ways. I hate to say it but when I went to high school it was 99% guys in electronics, 99% guys in autobody class, 99% guys in woods class, 99% Girls in Cosmotology, 99% Girls in Family studys..... You get the point.... society still plays a huge role on what we become based on our sex. More guys join bands when they are young , more guys take electronics blah blah blah.

That being said it is obvious that, the main reason why the recording industry is mostly men IS NOT because women aren't able to preform as well as men in the studio. Thankfully these days, as a women you can choose to do what you want to do...... you just have to want to scrape the shit off your windshield and find out what you can actually do aside from having a baby and a husband, which is sometimes easyer said then done i think.

One thing I have observed from the women I have know in the industry which is a sad trend (from my observation) is that it is easy for them use there sex to there advantage to move ahead quickly. I have seen women advance in big studios very quickly and be favored pretty much for no reason other then the fact that they are female.... and then eventually they just hit a brick wall because they never took the time to actually learn and evolve properly. To me this would be considered "relying on others" which Stevil also said most of the women he knows through music have taken this route.

Unfortunately this is a very easy and tempting route to take and from my observations it is a route that some of the already very few woman in the industry will take. And as I said before the unfortunate thing about taking that route is that you don't actually learn yourself and you don't actually get better at what you do.....From my observations alot of these females end up being paid runners on bigger projects and don't end up going any further then that. They don't end up assisting, they don't end up engineering there own projects. They just get fast acsess to important projects and end up being runners.

And whats wrong with that? Basically that these women may have the potential to be better engineers then the onces they are running for. However to do that you have to do it yourself, pay your dues, learn, evolve...


Unfortunately for women, there are a-lot of sexist assholes who easly assume that any woman in the industry must have slept her way to where she is or used there gender to there advantage. It's terrible.... it's not fair... it should not be tolerated.... but this is what happens.

That might explain why some of your students take time to warm up to you... the thing is no matter what people think you did to get where you are.... if your a good engineer it will eventually show. Once again a very terrible thing..... but I think its true.

Aside from that I am sure there are other reasons as well...... Nerds are easily intimidated by women for example..... there scared.

Moral of the story is...... If your good your good if your not your not.... if you have the brains, the passion to learn, the drive to stick with it..... sex doesn't matter.

[AllAboutTone]

Good post, I still have the extreme need to see a lady making it happen at the console and with the tools of trade, honest this is something that would really make me work even harder at what I do, I'm not talking about knowing a software and using a mouse, and talking the entire shebang. I have saw many female artist that have made it in the music Industry but I have yet to see a female band that reaches the ladder of well known artist, YES we have plenty that can sing there ass off but few that can really play and pull it off like a male. I would like that to come to past, I'm all for the females in control.

Originally Posted by silent-sam

First off I think women are equal to men in the studio.... Like someone else said if your good your good, if your bad your bad.

Statistics also show that women in general have better, longer lasting hearing then men... however this statistic may be based on he fact that men tend to do more physically demanding, and noisy work then women do... If so as women are liberated more and more and start doing the same work that men do, this will not apply. But for now this is what they say....so that right there is one reason why a woman might actually have an advantage over a man.

ANYWAYS now that we have established that I personally believe that men are equal to women and vice versa here is my opinion on your situation, and the situation of women in the recording industry in general.

Women have come a long way in some ways and they haven't in other ways. I hate to say it but when I went to high school it was 99% guys in electronics, 99% guys in autobody class, 99% guys in woods class, 99% Girls in Cosmotology, 99% Girls in Family studys..... You get the point.... society still plays a huge role on what we become based on our sex. More guys join bands when they are young , more guys take electronics blah blah blah.

That being said it is obvious that, the main reason why the recording industry is mostly men IS NOT because women aren't able to preform as well as men in the studio. Thankfully these days, as a women you can choose to do what you want to do...... you just have to want to scrape the shit off your windshield and find out what you can actually do aside from having a baby and a husband, which is sometimes easyer said then done i think.

One thing I have observed from the women I have know in the industry which is a sad trend (from my observation) is that it is easy for them use there sex to there advantage to move ahead quickly. I have seen women advance in big studios very quickly and be favored pretty much for no reason other then the fact that they are female.... and then eventually they just hit a brick wall because they never took the time to actually learn and evolve properly. To me this would be considered "relying on others" which Stevil also said most of the women he knows through music have taken this route.

Unfortunately this is a very easy and tempting route to take and from my observations it is a route that some of the already very few woman in the industry will take. And as I said before the unfortunate thing about taking that route is that you don't actually learn yourself and you don't actually get better at what you do.....From my observations alot of these females end up being paid runners on bigger projects and don't end up going any further then that. They don't end up assisting, they don't end up engineering there own projects. They just get fast acsess to important projects and end up being runners.

And whats wrong with that? Basically that these women may have the potential to be better engineers then the onces they are running for. However to do that you have to do it yourself, pay your dues, learn, evolve...


Unfortunately for women, there are a-lot of sexist assholes who easly assume that any woman in the industry must have slept her way to where she is or used there gender to there advantage. It's terrible.... it's not fair... it should not be tolerated.... but this is what happens.

That might explain why some of your students take time to warm up to you... the thing is no matter what people think you did to get where you are.... if your a good engineer it will eventually show. Once again a very terrible thing..... but I think its true.

Aside from that I am sure there are other reasons as well...... Nerds are easily intimidated by women for example..... there scared.

Moral of the story is...... If your good your good if your not your not.... if you have the brains, the passion to learn, the drive to stick with it..... sex doesn't matter.

[TC Custom Audio]

Originally Posted by Zenith

I was searching for a thread dedicated to women in audio on this site, and I have yet to find one

I know of one and I think it was deleted because it degenerated into the strange, sexist nonesense that I see in many of the posts above.

[Jules]

Please report anything that breaks forum rules

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Gilli C

but do wonder if it may be as simple as women just don't process technical info the same way as guys: not that they can't but perhaps there is enough of a difference in the brain, and its a bell curve kind of thing - at each end theres a few people exhibiting the extremes.

Great Point !!

[Darwin James]

Audio engineering isn't that difficult, it's just not sexy enough of a field for most women to get into.

They can learn if they desire.

[IsleBeatUDown]

There are very real differences between "typical" male and female brains which have been shown with current imaging tech. The differences explain a lot. For me, the most interesting anecdotal evidence of this was the reporting of a woman changing her gender. She starting taking massive doses of testosterone to jump-start the change and she described her thought process changes as bizarre: checking out women on the street in an obvious and rude fashion she couldn't control; geeking out in general about scientific topics she hadn't cared about last week.

I only mention this to say that without being sexist, science is showing us real differences between the sexes (all 4 or 5 of them). We all exist somewhere along this continuum and perhaps the women so inclined to be engineers are off to one side of the bell-curve or another.

As for your students, if they're mostly guys, then that explains them, too. Territorial, horny, looking for a girlfriend and/or mother-figure. A friend tried explaining it to my wife by saying that all the complex behaviors of men boil down to the next orgasm. Sex, drugs and rock'n'roll. See? The sex comes first - the other are just substitutes because we don't get enough sex (after all, how many partners could you find to have sex every 15 seconds when it crosses our minds?).

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Not taking sides on either here but I have never saw a woman behind a console making it happen as a engineer. I'm sure they are many, I have to say "I would love to watch" Seeing a lady at work clearly knowing what she is doing with gear would be better than having sex with her......lol

I totally agree - Seeing a man at work clearly knowing what he is doing with gear would be better than having sex with him... Once in a while you find one that excels at both Booyah!

[Darwin James]

oh snap. now this thread is starting to heat up.

[Led]

I've worked with several female engineers, all who's work would blow many male counterparts away. I had a female as the other assistant along with me when I began, she always kept me working my ass off to compete with her for gigs. One of the females from our shop named Karen Hewitt went on to work very successfully internationally. Sylvia going out and setting up Radio Star took more balls than many guys I know have.
Overall the women I assisted seemed to have a less 'analytical' approach to things than the guys I worked with, and were generally better at multitasking.

[bcgood]

Originally Posted by Zenith

I totally agree - Seeing a man at work clearly knowing what he is doing with gear would be better than having sex with him... Once in a while you find one that excels at both Booyah!

Ha ha! You rock Zenith, so glad you're here. We need more women in this place. I hope you stay awhile.

[AllAboutTone]

Why aren't the ladies chiming in ? we are having a nice chat about them, are they up for the task?.......I mean we are not bragging here we just want results.
I wanna hear something a women did from top to bottom, from building the room to the master finished product......give me a link.

[Gilli C]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Why aren't the ladies chiming in ? we are having a nice chat about them, are they up for the task?.......I mean we are not bragging here we just want results.
I wanna hear something a women did from top to bottom, from building the room to the master finished product......give me a link.

all right then...

heres a link to a track I mixed/co- mixed
RECLOOSE, Dust - Boomkat

an album
Beggar's Choice | Amplifier NZ Music

And myspace:
theres a remix/redo and an instrumental
BirdMad on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

and theatre sound design:
Gil Eva Craig on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

I didn't build my room tho...thats what men are for! (its an existing room in our workshop - its fairly crap).

Gil

[CREAMY WILLIAMS]

I think it is obvious why there are fewer women in the business - just have a look at some of the posts!

I grew up mainly around women and I am rather uncomfortable with frat-boy/rugga bugger antics. I seriously think that having a strong woman or two around does wonders for the behavior of groups of blokes.

I play with a spectacular female flute virtuoso (she's on my myspace tune) and I have seen her been given rather short shrift by male players - until she kicks their arse!

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Gilli C

all right then...

heres a link to a track I mixed/co- mixed
RECLOOSE, Dust - Boomkat

an album
Beggar's Choice | Amplifier NZ Music

And myspace:
theres a remix/redo and an instrumental
BirdMad on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

and theatre sound design:
Gil Eva Craig on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

I didn't build my room tho...thats what men are for! (its an existing room in our workshop - its fairly crap).

Gil

Beggar's Choice sounded great but the electronic music does not count in my mind, only thing thats being tracked of real art is the vocals.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Beggar's Choice sounded great but the electronic music does not count in my mind, only thing thats being tracked of real art is the vocals.

I had a great time tracking this album, "The Shape I'm In" by Zac McFadden - I had the privilege of working on this project as the recording engineer (about a year ago).

Zac McFadden & the Crooks on MySpace Music - Free Streaming MP3s, Pictures & Music Videos

Not all of the songs he has posted were completed by me (or are on the album for that matter). Most of the ones that have over 2,000 hits are mine. People really care for the title track from the album but my personal favorite is "Vegas"...

I am sharing this with you, AllAboutTone, because you have never heard an acoustic recording completed by a female engineer and that's terrible - It's not your fault...

If you want to critique me, save that for another thread or shoot me a message - I think constructive criticism is so important to an engineer's growth, but I don't want to loose sight of the topic at hand...

Warm Regards,
- Zenith

[Gilli C]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Beggar's Choice sounded great but the electronic music does not count in my mind, only thing thats being tracked of real art is the vocals.

Thankyou...

I tracked the drums on beggars choice and gave Charlotte (the Artist) a submix of them. (except the last track 'mad', someone else recorded and mixed that. I did the mad remix thats on my Birdmad myspace page)

She did her own vocals and guitars on an Mbox, with a fairly modest mic, an AKG Perception 400. I helped her treat her room, and sort out levels & manage ptools sessions etc.

She was sole producer and I mixed it analogue on my PM2000 with a 001 using the tascam mx2424 convertors to give 10 ok outputs and eight ...*cough*... not so good.

Had to do this rather than dump to the mx2424 for work flow and time constraints.

much prefer to mix solely of the mx2424 tho.

I'm going to get Radar...that will be after I'v saved up for more 2 channels of compression (probably distressors, but open to sugesstions) and will keep the shitty ol' 001 rig running on OS9 for editing.

I also have a laptop running Ptools 7 (must get round to up grading to 8) which I use when working out of the studio on theatre stuff.

I used to do a heap of tracking, but now prefer to just mix. I feel I'm nearly ready to start producing.

ok, thats probably more than you need to know...sorry!

Cheers

Gil

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Zenith

I am sharing this with you, AllAboutTone, because you have never heard an acoustic recording completed by a female engineer and that's terrible - It's not your fault...

Thanks for the music, Nope around my area I have yet to run upon a female engineer, again I'm all for it if they can fill the shoes, I would love to stand back and watch. For a long time I never really heard of female musicians but now they are more and more of them playing out. I really cannot get into the art of recording electronic music, believe it or not I have recorded about every music out there except electronic in my 20 years behind the console.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Zenith

I had a great time tracking this album, "The Shape I'm In" by Zac McFadden - I had the privilege of working on this project as the recording engineer (about a year ago).

btw, great work, love the tones and tunes.....

[Led]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

I wanna hear something a women did from top to bottom, from building the room to the master finished product......give me a link.

Trina Shoemaker - Complete Discography

I don't think Trina builds rooms though..

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by Led

Trina Shoemaker - Complete Discography

I don't think Trina builds rooms though..

wow, Got my respect with the name Sheryl Crow attached.
Why can't I meet these females ??? lol

The room thing was a little extreme, hell I don't build rooms either....lol

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by bcgood

Ha ha! You rock Zenith, so glad you're here. We need more women in this place. I hope you stay awhile.

.

plus one...

please stay!

.

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

btw, great work, love the tones and tunes.....

You made my day - Thank you for your kind words...

P.S. I actually did help build the room I recorded this album in as an intern - I almost quit because of it lol - Patchbays suck to solder and laying the miles of cable underneath the false floor stunk - Sheesh! I do have to say however, upon completion it was very gratifying...

[Recording David]

^^ Yeah - I also listened to your tracks on the MySpace page. Great work - more power to you!

[audionickw]

Originally Posted by CREAMY WILLIAMS

I think it is obvious why there are fewer women in the business - just have a look at some of the posts!
I play with a spectacular female flute virtuoso (she's on my myspace tune) and I have seen her been given rather short shrift by male players - until she kicks their arse!

your post is the most sexist on here chief. if you have a sick mind like mine. seriously I think the guy has a point about the locker room type humor that exists in any traditionally male environment. When there are no women around we act like children! Period! We only ever act adults to impress women or to make money to get power to impress women.
Just think about all the audio innunendo: Nice Rack, this sounds like a big hairy ballsack, this has balls. etc... it's all about genitalia in the studio/stage

the women I know who work in audio are cool with this tomfoolery and bring sophmoric sex jokes to the table themselves. I can understand, however that many would feel left out. as more and more women get into it this will change though......slowly

[Zenith]

Originally Posted by audionickw

your post is the most sexist on here chief. if you have a sick mind like mine. seriously I think the guy has a point about the locker room type humor that exists in any traditionally male environment. When there are no women around we act like children! Period! We only ever act adults to impress women or to make money to get power to impress women.
Just think about all the audio innunendo: Nice Rack, this sounds like a big hairy ballsack, this has balls. etc... it's all about genitalia in the studio/stage

the women I know who work in audio are cool with this tomfoolery and bring sophmoric sex jokes to the table themselves. I can understand, however that many would feel left out. as more and more women get into it this will change though......slowly

Oh, I am all about off color humor - Generally I'm the first to pole vault over the line! I have a predisposition to crude jokes (Andrew Dice Clay was my favorite stand-up comedian when I was 8 y.o.)... I've actually been toning it down for you guys!

I have to agree that pretty much everything in audio is relatable to genitalia - It is so funny, but incredibly difficult, to teach an installation class without someone (including myself) making some remark about this or that - Examples:

- Grab the female end...
- Insert the 1/4 TRS into the input - No the other input - Stick it in THAT hole!
- Plug it in and turn me on...

So please, don't hold back any punches for me - I work with 14 other male engineers that are all "F**kity, F**k, F**k" all day long...

By the way audionickw, I love your profile pic - Where do you get your hair done?

[voicegenius]

Originally Posted by AllAboutTone

Why aren't the ladies chiming in ? we are having a nice chat about them, are they up for the task?.......I mean we are not bragging here we just want results.
I wanna hear something a women did from top to bottom, from building the room to the master finished product......give me a link.

Top female engineer right here: Secrets Of The Mix Engineers: Marcella Araica

May not be your style of music, but can't knock her work...

[audionickw]

Originally Posted by Zenith

Oh, I am all about off color humor - Generally I'm the first to pole vault over the line! I have a predisposition to crude jokes (Andrew Dice Clay was my favorite stand-up comedian when I was 8 y.o.)... I've actually been toning it down for you guys!

I have to agree that pretty much everything in audio is relatable to genitalia - It is so funny, but incredibly difficult, to teach an installation class without someone (including myself) making some remark about this or that - Examples:

- Grab the female end...
- Insert the 1/4 TRS into the input - No the other input - Stick it in THAT hole!
- Plug it in and turn me on...

So please, don't hold back any punches for me - I work with 14 other male engineers that are all "F**kity, F**k, F**k" all day long...

By the way audionickw, I love your profile pic - Where do you get your hair done?

it's a wig. check here's a more recent one of me

yeah we've been sending interns to find the P3N-1S with quick release or the VA-61-NA. or a male to male D to A turnaround. it never ends. glad you are around and wish more ladies were into this stuff. "the reverb in this cell is amazing"-Phil Spector

[Gilli C]

Originally Posted by Zenith

Oh, I am all about off color humor - Generally I'm the first to pole vault over the line! I have a predisposition to crude jokes (Andrew Dice Clay was my favorite stand-up comedian when I was 8 y.o.)... I've actually been toning it down for you guys!

I have to agree that pretty much everything in audio is relatable to genitalia - It is so funny, but incredibly difficult, to teach an installation class without someone (including myself) making some remark about this or that - Examples:

- Grab the female end...
- Insert the 1/4 TRS into the input - No the other input - Stick it in THAT hole!
- Plug it in and turn me on...

So please, don't hold back any punches for me - I work with 14 other male engineers that are all "F**kity, F**k, F**k" all day long...

By the way audionickw, I love your profile pic - Where do you get your hair done?

Bahahaha! its "F**kity, F**k, F**k" all day long at our place too. I checked out Andrew Dice Clay ... have you listened to Derek and Clive ? you might like it....on high rotate at our workshop. There is an occasional scramble to turn it off when theres a knock at the door...

As for the building thing.... I once plastered and painted a mix room I had a few years ago. Hated every F**king second. Managed to pour paint down my front and got sick of blowing white plaster boogers out my nose every day. Will.pay.pro.next.time.oh yes.

I really liked designing and making this funny wee XLR patching panel and looms for my room. Soldering = zen.


Gil

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by voicegenius

Top female engineer right here: Secrets Of The Mix Engineers: Marcella Araica

May not be your style of music, but can't knock her work...

cool, she looks great on the console as well....