Ebay Shill Bidding?

[Blewgrass]

Has anyone raised an eyebrow about this phenomenon on Ebay when buying? Here is the scenario:

Good seller, 100%
you bid on the item and then a bidder with say (40) rating bids.
You outbid mr (40) and then near the end of the auction you get a (0) bidder who shows up, bids up the item to just under your max.
You win item.

You can't prove it, but your smell receptors wonder if associates or insiders to the seller have created (zero) accounts to bid up items to higher prices.

Is there any way to tell if this is happening?

thanks for your adivce

Steve

[lowfreq33]

Of course there is.

If you're on ebay... it's happening.

[AllAboutTone]

This goes on everyday, there is not much you can do about it, good reason not to put a max bid (like way above), do your bids within seconds of the auction ends, and if you are lucky you will win.

[roxxon]

It happens all the time.
You will often find out later, when you get a second chance offer! LOL!

I've followed re-listed auction items and watched the same bidder or another bidder with zero or little feedback win, the same item again.
More than a few times on some occasions.

The shill-sellers-bidders are searching for a specific price point.
Without setting a buy-it-now price.
I know it's illegal, but really...
Who gives a rat's ass, as long as the price is fair?

I did a tonne of business with one Ebay power seller.
He was a great guy, great deals and great customer service after the fact.

I am positive that he was bid-shilling during his auctions where he listed numerous items starting at one cent.

The tell-tale-give away was the same phantom bidders kept winning many of his rock-bottom items where few or no other bids were made.
He had about 20 different shill-bidder accounts.

I followed the "winners" of the auctions on his site that I lost.
To see the feedback the left for the deal transaction.
There was none.
As I suspected.

If he had left fake seller-buyer feedback, he probably never would have had any problems.


A few months after I began dealing with the seller, I received messages from four angry fellow-Ebayers.
They also had figured out that this seller was doing some shill-bidding.
They wanted me to help take him down and to report him to Ebay.
I refused.
They were furious with me.

I told them that no one was forcing them to buy from that seller.

I took it that they were choked that they couldn't win decent items for less than a buck.
Well, they did band together and they reported the seller.The seller was suspended.
He was off for a few months, he's back and now he only lists buy it now prices.

I actually felt bad for the guy.
He always treated me right.
Realistically, I never expected to win items that had a street price tag of a few hundred dollars for a penny.

Obviously, other people did.

Oh, well...

[Blewgrass]

Very interesting Roxxon,
I followed a couple of your ebay relateld threads and learned a lot. I'm pretty sure that this just happened to me, but it was only a hundred bucks, so whatever. I did read some of ebays standard legal poo poo about shill bidding, and see that there is no way to deal with it. I also agree with the above comments that you have to be present for the end of the auction and not bid a max.

I still got a good deal so I don't care as much. I learned a lot by reading your experience with the pay pal drama. I almost bought something with a guy that had a recent negative but held out for a better record. I think 100% is the only way to go, but ebay is losing appeal quickly.

[roxxon]

I hear you, bro.
There's usually no problem when you deal with real Ebay stores.
They usually have fixed prices and or take offers.
I have bought a lot of great gear on Ebay, used and new,
mostly from the U.S.A.

I live in Canada.

There are ways to deal with shill bidding, but really is it worth your time?
You have to ask yourself that first.

It depends heavily upon if you really want a certain item very badly.

There is a legal practice on Ebay known as bid sniping.
At any time before the auction ends, if you use that method of bidding, you will automatically win the item.
Your bid will, trump the highest bid in the auction.

The danger of using that feature is that you could possibly end up paying far more than you really want to for your item. Especially, if the seller is playing the bid-shilling game.


The main reason that a number of Ebay seller choose to go the bid-shilling route is... A lot of Ebay buyers don't like to bid on items with fixed prices, they are hoping to garner a great deal.
Some of them also really enjoy the thrill of bidding and the excitement of winning items for a great price.

So no reserve auctions and or penny auctions really appeal to many buyers.
This is exactly why bid-shilling exists.
The seller would either get little or no action on their auctions in many cases if they put their real asking price for an item.
Shill bidding is a form of protection for the seller, it saves them from eating crow, financially if only cheapskate bidders vie for their items for sale.

Though it's deemed as illegal by Ebay, honestly I don't really care about sellers who choose to use shill-bidding.
I can understand why potential buyers would be miffed and left angry by the practice.
As a famous man once said: "You can tell that there is buggery taking place aboard a ship, when you can taste sh@t on the captain's dick."

The above statement speaks volumes about Ebay and PayPal.

[Blewgrass]

thanks man,

Your lessons and wisdom from experience are much appreciated. What you are saying speaks volumes of logic. Spoken by a truth seeker who has learned the Way...

I, too have scored some great deals on evil bay, but I am very reserved, paranoid, and cautious about choosing sellers. As I stated before, the piece of gear was available at a slightly reduced price through other sellers, but the smell test woudn't flush...

I'm not in the mood to lose $1500 in this economy! I'm glad you didn't pay your *girlfriend* the $6k for your phantom Studer tape machine either....sometimes the temptation is strong to trust people, but that's another story and thread... sigh... we live in very cynical times.

Cheers and thanks for the free lessons!

Steve

[roxxon]

I'm so glad that someone could learn from my past errors!

Kudos, for listening and learning with me!


And at least PayPal's customer protection program has improved by a country mile, since the previous time when I dealt with them!

[tengu]

I have had a couple of problems with ebay and maybe a few shill bids but in general I think it is a really good site.

The amount of things I have sold on ebay with minimal hassle is quite a bit. Not to mention the amount of people it can reach all over the world.

The pluses far outweigh the negative in my experience.

[AllAboutTone]

Originally Posted by tengu

The pluses far outweigh the negative in my experience.

Ditto

[Blewgrass]

Agreed. The size of the worldwide seller network is staggering. I have been very fortunate in my travels in ebayland thus far.

I prefer craigslist and/or local forum dealings. I bought a Martin gutar off a guy on the East Coast (I'm in California) with only a promise and pictures. It worked out great, and the guitar was a fantastic instrument (which I later traded for a vintage martin!)

It's just too much fun. Gear swapping may be the most gratifying process of all. Letting go of something you don't use, and getting something you want, without the use of cash.

[joeydego]

Cant say I'm innocent. Ive had friends bid on stuff to ensure it doesnt sell below XXX dollars.

[Blewgrass]

tuttHey, at least you're honest about your dishonesty!

[triez]

Ebay Australia removed the facility for putting a reserve on any auction. I can understand why people would shill in that case, what's the point of having an auction if you have to post your reserve price as the starting point for the auction to prevent having your item sold for less than you are prepared to take?

[roxxon]

Even if there is no reserve price, you can set a starting bid minimum.
The auction doesn't have to start automatically at zero or one cent.

Let's say that you as a seller wanted at least a buying price of around $500.
You could set the opening bid at $425.00.
Hoping that a bidding war might begin and that you might get at least your asking price or a bit better.
Depending on the supply and demand value and availability of the item which you are offering for sale.

In fact as another poster once mentioned in the past, that his starting bid price as a seller for a specific item, actually was his item's reserve price.

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by roxxon

Even if there is no reserve price, you can set a starting bid minimum.
The auction doesn't have to start automatically at zero or one cent.

Let's say that you as a seller wanted at least a buying price of around $500.
You could set the opening bid at $425.00.
Hoping that a bidding war might begin and that you might get at least your asking price or a bit better.
Depending on the supply and demand value and availability of the item which you are offering for sale.

In fact as another poster once mentioned in the past, that his starting bid price as a seller for a specific item, actually was his item's reserve price.

the only downside to that approach is that it costs a lot more to list an item starting any higher than 0.99 now... in fact I think there is no fee for a 0.99 starting bid anymore.

but setting a reserve costs quite a bit too, so you need to weigh all the possibilities...

[PhilipCohen]

For anyone interested, a case study of a classic, blatant shill bidder on eBay, and a comment on eBay’s attitude thereto at http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24033

[fragchamp]

AFAIK a seller cannot tell what amount you bid, so if they bumped it up to a cent under your bid then it must have been coincidence.

[fragchamp]

Originally Posted by terminal3

the only downside to that approach is that it costs a lot more to list an item starting any higher than 0.99 now... in fact I think there is no fee for a 0.99 starting bid anymore.

but setting a reserve costs quite a bit too, so you need to weigh all the possibilities...

Yeah, it's cheaper for the seller to list at 0.99 and shill to $50 than open the bid at $50, which encourages them to shill. Ebay seems to love its 99 cent listings.

[jomo1234]

I don't understand why Ebay can't simply refuse multiple bids from separate Ebay accounts using the same FTP address. Certainly you can use another computer to make a shill bid, but I suspect most sellers won't go that extra mile to do that.

[dietrich10]

It was easier to investigate possible shill bidding sellers in the past before ebay started blocking bidder id's.
You use to be able to go through sellers current auctions vs past to see the same bidders winning all the time...

It is hard not to bid on an item you want right away.

[hipass]

Originally Posted by jomo1234

I don't understand why Ebay can't simply refuse multiple bids from separate Ebay accounts using the same FTP address. Certainly you can use another computer to make a shill bid, but I suspect most sellers won't go that extra mile to do that.

The only problem is that a shill bidder can bid with a mobile device so he can get a different IP address or get his friend in another city to do it.
There really is no 100% sure fire way to stop it.

[cornutt]

Originally Posted by triez

Ebay Australia removed the facility for putting a reserve on any auction.

That's weird. I wonder why? Is it some Australian law? Reserves have been standard practice for auctions since waaaay before Ebay ever existed.

[PhilipCohen]

Shill Bidding on eBay: Case Study #2

Shining some light on the more sophisticated and therefore harder to detect shill bidding activity by many “professional” sellers on eBay auctions

This time a spreadsheet analysis of multiple auctions from some "professional" sellers from the US and Australia. Needless to say the analysis demonstrates, once again, that, contrary to eBay’s claims, shill bidding by many “professional” sellers is rampant on eBay auctions. The full comment and spreadsheet download links at:
http://www.auctionbytes.com/forum/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=24296

[Fletcher]

Shill bidding goes on at "real" auctions all the time... why would you think it wouldn't go on during "virtual" auctions?

[d1rtynyc]

Originally Posted by Fletcher

Shill bidding goes on at "real" auctions all the time... why would you think it wouldn't go on during "virtual" auctions?

You beat me to it.
I had that experience when I was 18 bidding for a car.

[Mr XY]

i see this happen all the time - does not bother me really - no one can force you to pay more than you are willing. I think if ebay fees were structured differently there would be less of this stuff going on.

[Sounds Great]

Originally Posted by Blewgrass

Good seller, 100%
you bid on the item and then a bidder with say (40) rating bids.
You outbid mr (40) and then near the end of the auction you get a (0) bidder who shows up, bids up the item to just under your max.

How could the shill bidder know what your maximum is? You are the only one that knows that until someone bids higher.

[hipass]

It's not hard say you have bid a max bid of $500 but the item is at $200 the shill bidder comes in and makes several bids up to you max then the seller cancels the bids. The another shill bidder or the same one bids up to the point of your max bid.
I had this happened to me I got an email stating I was out bid. Then a few minutes later I got an email stating I was the high bidder I won the auction but I was at my max bid.
This all happened within the last hour of the auction. This happened a while back I am not not sure if they have changing policies. But I do know eBay will suspend a user account permanently for shill bidding.

[AllAboutTone]

I'm not gonna lie, I have shill bided a couple times, its not right and I don't do it anymore, ebay caught me doing it and said if it happen again that my ebay account would be gone forever. I stopped, it happened years ago.
However I do send a fake best offer or 2 every now and then just to get the ball rolling.
So yes they are many FAKE OFFERS as well.