Login / Register
 
American Idol's Drummer
New Reply
Subscribe
dannygold
Thread Starter
#1
15th March 2009
Old 15th March 2009
  #1
Lives for gear
 
dannygold's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,880

Thread Starter
dannygold is offline
American Idol's Drummer

I thought it was a singing competition, not a "fills that aren't in the actual song" competition. If it is IS a "fills that aren't in the actual song" competition he might win!
__________________
Danny Gold
#2
15th March 2009
Old 15th March 2009
  #2
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 23,831

chrisso is offline
I don't know what you are talking about, but I'm sure he doesn't have to play the same fills as on a particular record.
__________________
Chris Whitten
dannygold
Thread Starter
#3
15th March 2009
Old 15th March 2009
  #3
Lives for gear
 
dannygold's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,880

Thread Starter
dannygold is offline
What I'm saying is a drummer in that context shouldn't draw attention to themselves. He does.
Jax
#4
15th March 2009
Old 15th March 2009
  #4
Jax
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2002
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 4,782

Jax is offline
I heard his playing when I was forced to watch the show at family gathering. Fwiw, I thought his fills fit the gig perfectly: American Idol is all flash and fireworks. The fills he does are exactly that. Not to mention he's a ripping drummer.

Playing my exact same kit here -

#5
15th March 2009
Old 15th March 2009
  #5
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,740

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I don't know what you are talking about, but I'm sure he doesn't have to play the same fills as on a particular record.
he fekkin should. Guitar, keys, bass, strings and vocals do. So the ruddy drummer does as well - my biggest hate (and the quickets way to get "replaced" on my sessions) - being a drummer who doesn't know the part.

Drummers - YOU DON'T MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG
#6
15th March 2009
Old 15th March 2009
  #6
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 23,831

chrisso is offline
By and large drum fills are not scripted. They are an ad lib, improvised.
Many drummers play a different set of fills on the same song everytime they play it.
Also, the key difference with regard to 'Idol' shows is this.
They aren't tributes, like The Bootleg Beatles or THe Counterfeit Stones.
They are merely using other peoples songs.
The drummer in a 'cover' band is not required to play 100% what was on the record.
#7
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #7
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,740

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
By and large drum fills are not scripted. They are an ad lib, improvised.
Many drummers play a different set of fills on the same song everytime they play it.
Also, the key difference with regard to 'Idol' shows is this.
They aren't tributes, like The Bootleg Beatles or THe Counterfeit Stones.
They are merely using other peoples songs.
The drummer in a 'cover' band is not required to play 100% what was on the record.
not on my gigs they aint!!

Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Dirtbombs and QOTSA all work out their fills. Adlibs are not acceptable apart from in the working out stage....

point taken though - even though I consider it a bit slack ( the drumming not your point !!)
#8
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #8
Gear Head
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 52

rockdrummer027 is offline
When you play as tight as he does, I don't think anyone should have a problem with a few extra fills, and no matter how good you are, drummers are never expected to play music as written. Even in musical theater drum charts are no more than "road maps" that say play this type of groove for this many measures, and include some ensemble hits.
#9
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #9
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 23,831

chrisso is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
not on my gigs they aint!!
Ad libs are more than acceptable, they are a tradition in 90% of pop/rock/funk/country.
Stuff that's worked out in advance and repeated cancels out any momentary inspiration that takes the music to a higher level.
I've often come up with a better fill on the second or third take of a song in the studio.
The record producers I've worked with would rather hear a variety of ideas and something they might never come up with themselves, rather than work everything out in advance.
This isn't classical music.
#10
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #10
Gear Head
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 52

rockdrummer027 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
he fekkin should. Guitar, keys, bass, strings and vocals do. So the ruddy drummer does as well - my biggest hate (and the quickets way to get "replaced" on my sessions) - being a drummer who doesn't know the part.

Drummers - YOU DON'T MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG
Then it sounds like I won't be doing any sessions for you. "Working out fills" completely kills the creativity involved. As long as the emphasis fits the groove and it ends in the right place to transition, you shouldn't be complaining about an improvised fill.

Sometimes when youre playing you have that magic fill that afterwards when youre playing the track back, you say "wow, im glad we were recording that take because that fill was perfect." Sounds to me like youre missing out on a ton of those satisfying moments.

Do guitar players write out their solos? Sometimes yes, but usually they just know what key to play in and run with it. Are you saying all guitarists should compose note for note too? Especially live. If John Mayer played the same solos he plays on his album versions, his concerts would be a hell of a lot less exciting.

Have you played drums? It sound like you don't understand the way the instrument works.
#11
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #11
Gear Head
 
makesijoseph's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2007
Location: trinidad and tobago
Posts: 46

Send a message via MSN to makesijoseph
makesijoseph is offline
hey that drummer is aaron spears you talking about and he is a good drummer but he does make some big BIG FILLS but dont worry as ling as he comes back in time its ok he also plays for usher
__________________
Music is expression ROCK RAP REGGAE SOCA all expressions
#12
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #12
Lives for gear
 
shanabit's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 6,165

shanabit is offline
Hey, as long as they STAY away from the 80's tom rolls and keep hammering on the ride or crash, Im fine

We called our last drummer the Rushing Dragon as he would rush and then drag ALL THE TIME!!!

He couldnt seem to find the downbeat after his 80's tom thunder LOL
#13
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #13
Gear Head
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 52

rockdrummer027 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by aiff View Post
While we're on American Idol. I haven't seen much of it, but the bass player is just phenomenal. Next time you watch the show listen to the bass player.
Every single musician in that band is phenomenal. Props to whoever put that together.
#14
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #14
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 23,831

chrisso is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockdrummer027 View Post
Every single musician in that band is phenomenal. Props to whoever put that together.
In these economic times, $$$$ put it together.
#15
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #15
Gear Head
 
Joined: Aug 2007
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 53

drcrazyriffs is offline
I have been watching and I'm on he fence. I am a professional bassist who has played with a number of R&B/Gospel drummers and I can say that most of the "fills" he is doing I hear every gig from the drummers I play with so there was nothing new in that department. Furthermore, the chops he's pulling off are very nice but there were a couple of times when I got side tracked by the drummer's LOOOOOOOONNNNGGGG fill and not the singer. Overall I loved his placement. Just a tad bit over the top at times. Just my humble opinion.
__________________
Dee H
CEO-Chief Engineer
4 Seven Music Group
CrazyRiffs/Trilogy Studio
#16
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #16
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,740

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockdrummer027 View Post
Then it sounds like I won't be doing any sessions for you. "Working out fills" completely kills the creativity involved. As long as the emphasis fits the groove and it ends in the right place to transition, you shouldn't be complaining about an improvised fill.

Sometimes when youre playing you have that magic fill that afterwards when youre playing the track back, you say "wow, im glad we were recording that take because that fill was perfect." Sounds to me like youre missing out on a ton of those satisfying moments.

Do guitar players write out their solos? Sometimes yes, but usually they just know what key to play in and run with it. Are you saying all guitarists should compose note for note too? Especially live. If John Mayer played the same solos he plays on his album versions, his concerts would be a hell of a lot less exciting.

Have you played drums? It sound like you don't understand the way the instrument works.
been playing drums since i was 4 years old .... so i reckon it's those that think you can jam on records who don't understand the instrument.

As i said - jam in rehearsals and even during work out time in the studio. Lock them down once worked out. Most drummers I've worked with (from Dirtbombs, through to Yeah Yeah Yeahs) lock their fills down. Same for live - if it's not your (the drummers) gig - lock it down. A-Idol? Brilliant drummer with NO discipline. Spoils it for me - just like Beyonces drummer...over the top Vegas style!

Missing out on satisfying moment? Not at all. Leave that in pre-production. Time is money - get it nailed the way it's planned.
#17
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #17
Lives for gear
 
syra's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2003
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 2,481

syra is offline
The whole band is Rickey's band who is also the bass player...drummer is teddy campbell. Amazing drummer...the fills are his thing...the way he plays.
#18
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #18
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 23,831

chrisso is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
been playing drums since i was 4 years old .... so i reckon it's those that think you can jam on records who don't understand the instrument.

Missing out on satisfying moment? Not at all. Leave that in pre-production. Time is money - get it nailed the way it's planned.
Your way of thinking is radically different from anyone I've ever met or worked with.
Well, I guess I've never worked with Mutt Lange.

But, many recordings are made without pre-production anyway.

You have a valid reason to state a method that works for you, but I wouldn't want anyone to read this thread and think
1) static repetition of pre-planned fills is normal practice in the studio
and
2) to improvise fills in a recording is wrong
#19
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #19
Lives for gear
 
geareyes's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 548

geareyes is offline
Hey Jax...Nice clip !

Some nice hat/kick interaction round the 3:15 mark

Drums are so insanely expressive !

Mike
#20
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #20
Gear Head
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 52

rockdrummer027 is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
been playing drums since i was 4 years old .... so i reckon it's those that think you can jam on records who don't understand the instrument.

As i said - jam in rehearsals and even during work out time in the studio. Lock them down once worked out. Most drummers I've worked with (from Dirtbombs, through to Yeah Yeah Yeahs) lock their fills down. Same for live - if it's not your (the drummers) gig - lock it down. A-Idol? Brilliant drummer with NO discipline. Spoils it for me - just like Beyonces drummer...over the top Vegas style!

Missing out on satisfying moment? Not at all. Leave that in pre-production. Time is money - get it nailed the way it's planned.
Locking down fills might be the right idea for a mediocre drummer but any drummer with the slightest bit of skill should be able to play a fill that compliments the song EVERY time. For most skilled drummers its probably more difficult to play a scripted fill because thats not what they're used to. Concentrating on what to hit and when is distracting you from just playing whatever comes to mind and and making sure you're really locking in with the track.

And if Teddy Campbell has NO discipline, I don't understand why he's the one featured in all the drumming magazines and not the drummer from the Yeah Yeah Yeah's. Maybe it's because everyone is hiring him for their gigs and not some guy from a one hit rock band.
#21
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #21
Gear Head
 
Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 52

rockdrummer027 is offline
You owe it to yourself to check out this video.

Teddy Campbell

Watch that and tell me he doesn't nail all the scripted ensemble hits, yet still throw in unscripted, tasty fills. Let me see Brian Chase play something even remotely like that.
#22
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #22
Lives for gear
 
maxpidge's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2007
Location: Detroit, Mi
Posts: 2,219

maxpidge is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
been playing drums since i was 4 years old .... so i reckon it's those that think you can jam on records who don't understand the instrument.

As i said - jam in rehearsals and even during work out time in the studio. Lock them down once worked out. Most drummers I've worked with (from Dirtbombs, through to Yeah Yeah Yeahs) lock their fills down. Same for live - if it's not your (the drummers) gig - lock it down. A-Idol? Brilliant drummer with NO discipline. Spoils it for me - just like Beyonces drummer...over the top Vegas style!

Missing out on satisfying moment? Not at all. Leave that in pre-production. Time is money - get it nailed the way it's planned.
apparently you have never recorded the dirtbombs live...
#23
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,902

Duardo is offline
Quote:
he fekkin should. Guitar, keys, bass, strings and vocals do.
On "American Idol"? They're usually new arrangements, aren't they?

Quote:
my biggest hate (and the quickets way to get "replaced" on my sessions) - being a drummer who doesn't know the part.

Drummers - YOU DON'T MAKE IT UP AS YOU GO ALONG
I don't disagree with the first part, but you can know the part and improvise fills at the same time.

Quote:
As i said - jam in rehearsals and even during work out time in the studio. Lock them down once worked out. Most drummers I've worked with (from Dirtbombs, through to Yeah Yeah Yeahs) lock their fills down. Same for live -
You keep mentioning the same few drummers, but I'd guess that most drummers don't play their fills the same way each time. Personally, if I go to a live show and hear all of the same fills as on the record I get a little irritated. Same goes for me personally...very few of the fills I play are planned out in advance. What's the point?

And again, since we're talking about "American Idol" here, so we're talking about different arrangements...so how do you know that his fills aren't worked out ahead of time?
#24
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #24
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,740

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Your way of thinking is radically different from anyone I've ever met or worked with.
Well, I guess I've never worked with Mutt Lange.

But, many recordings are made without pre-production anyway.

You have a valid reason to state a method that works for you, but I wouldn't want anyone to read this thread and think
1) static repetition of pre-planned fills is normal practice in the studio
and
2) to improvise fills in a recording is wrong

Cool.

Not many records are made without pre-production though. Nearly all spend more time in rehearsal with the producer than recording.

Static (no - with feel) repitition - ie playing what has been written IS normal BUT with the caveat that if there is an idea for something better - then DO it.!! But ask the producer first !!
#25
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #25
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,740

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duardo View Post
On "American Idol"? They're usually new arrangements, aren't they?


I don't disagree with the first part, but you can know the part and improvise fills at the same time.


You keep mentioning the same few drummers, but I'd guess that most drummers don't play their fills the same way each time. Personally, if I go to a live show and hear all of the same fills as on the record I get a little irritated. Same goes for me personally...very few of the fills I play are planned out in advance. What's the point?

And again, since we're talking about "American Idol" here, so we're talking about different arrangements...so how do you know that his fills aren't worked out ahead of time?
I'm not arguing that he hasn't! I'm only arguing for the "you should" approach.

I've recorded hundreds, if not thousands, of drummers over the years - and all the good ones know exactly what they're gonna do each time. There is an ellemtn of jamming - but not in every take....

Of course if something isn't working - then yeah - things change. But once it's down, they play it the same. Vinnie and Carmine work(ed) that way. Same with Chester Thompson (sp?). Often musical parts work WITH a fill (in fact more often than not) - so it'd be silly to change. Jam fills when the location is planned for. Different drummers? I've got old videos of the Beatles playing and Ringo is playing the written parts. I'[ve seen the Stones in the late 70's and in the 0's.... the fills are the same (well mostly ) as he records. Same for U2. Same for Oasis. Same for the Verve. Same for Maroon 5 (who i don't like - but very good live). Same with Ronnie Size in the late 90's etc etc etc

Look - there isn't anything WRONG with jamming. But you don't do it with me and many others! Especially if I'm hiring!! Play it as written unless otherwise stated! What's so hard for people to get about that !!
#26
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #26
Gear addict
 
Jake's Avatar
 
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 313

Jake is offline
I can't believe I'm here posting about American Idol, but here I am.

I think the premise (i.e. the fills aren't in the original song) is false, because many of the arrangements are very different from the original tune. Why shouldn't the drums in a different arrangement be different? So I really don't understand the premise. If the complaint is that he overplays (and I would agree that sometimes he does) that's a different issue than complaining about the fact that he rearranges the drums when the entire song has been rearranged to begin with.
#27
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 3,902

Duardo is offline
Quote:
I'm not arguing that he hasn't! I'm only arguing for the "you should" approach.
If you're hiring, sure, then you can say "you should" to whomever you hire...but in general, "one should"? I don't think so.

I could easily respond with a list of drummers who don't play things the same way each time, but I don't suppose there'd be much point in doing that...but on most of the concerts I've seen and live albums/DVDs I have the fills are not note-for-note the same as on the albums. Some more than others. Even Neil Peart, who's known to be particularly anal about his fills, always leaves a few spots open for improvisation both live and in the studio.

Quote:
Look - there isn't anything WRONG with jamming. But you don't do it with me and many others! Especially if I'm hiring!! Play it as written unless otherwise stated! What's so hard for people to get about that !!
So do you actually write out drum parts note for note?

Most of the drum charts I've seen (and I do read music) do not.
#28
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #28
Moderator
 
narcoman's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 11,740

narcoman is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duardo View Post
If you're hiring, sure, then you can say "you should" to whomever you hire...but in general, "one should"? I don't think so.

I could easily respond with a list of drummers who don't play things the same way each time, but I don't suppose there'd be much point in doing that...but on most of the concerts I've seen and live albums/DVDs I have the fills are not note-for-note the same as on the albums. Some more than others. Even Neil Peart, who's known to be particularly anal about his fills, always leaves a few spots open for improvisation both live and in the studio.


So do you actually write out drum parts note for note?

Most of the drum charts I've seen (and I do read music) do not.
generally we discuss them as work out what they should do. Don't worry - there is plenty of time for artistic input..... but i'm not a believer that the studios are places to "muck about".... i prefer to get the tune worked out before hand.

Yup - million ways to skin a proverbial - but this is how i do it. I prefer not to leave things to chance but to work a great recording from the outset. I also believe that follows through to performance live. Yes - leave a few areas for showing off, why not. But what I really hate (and what I go at great lengths to sort out with acts on our development company) is drill it into everyones head that a band SHOULD work a little like an orchestra - if 4 players go off improvising in there own way then it generally ends up rubbish. Improv doesn't usually mean everybody , even in jazz. When you start making it up as you go you end up throwing somebody - and that leads to a compromised performance.....yes - and an incorrect drum fill can do it.

Everyone can do there own thing - obviously. But if you're working for me, you'd get chastised UNLESS it was all about the drums at that particular moment.
#29
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #29
Allons-y
 
Batchainpuller78's Avatar
 
Joined: Dec 2008
Location: Belgium
Posts: 2,808

Batchainpuller78 is offline
so Narcoman I'm guessing you are not very fond of Miles his early 70's period?

Although as a recording engineer doing other bands I think you are quite right, I love bands that got their sound & music together before they enter the studio, then you just capture their performance mix it & send it on the way easy peasy instead of doing take after take of something they are searching for.

As a musician having my own recordingstudio, I love mucking about and experimenting.
and I love doing fully improvised music, but yeah that's not 4 musicians going off on their own soloing, it's each with having total freedom trying to create something together, more about energy and dynamics & getting some kind of groove locked.

The drummer shown here is pretty good yes, however I'm really not into that style of drums & I have not seen american Idol but I think I have a pretty good Idea what the fills are going to be like.
#30
16th March 2009
Old 16th March 2009
  #30
Gear Guru
 
chrisso's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 23,831

chrisso is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by narcoman View Post
but i'm not a believer that the studios are places to "muck about".... i prefer to get the tune worked out before hand.

Here's the thing....
Your opposite to 'worked out' fills is 'jamming' or 'mucking about'.
That's nonsense.
I've worked alongside and watched many great drummers and they have all had the same method IME.
They don't rehearse or work anything out.
They play through the song once, they then discuss the overall approach (groove and fills) with the artist and producer, then they go out and cut it in one or two takes.
In my experience you don't know exactly what fills you are going to get and are generally blown away by some inspired fills that come out of the blue.
The top drummers know what appropriate fills sound like, and understand what people want to hear, so they rarely need to be locked in before they start to record.
A couple of months ago I watched Gregg Bissonette cutting a 3 minute track for a film score.
The writer hired him because he was looking for that kind of inspiration.
As it was film score the drum part was fairly locked in and written down, but Gregg still played his own fills.
Once they'd nailed a take that was exactly what they wanted, they recorded another couple of takes where gregg improvised more. Each take was more ambitious and the writer and producer were in raptures.
They ended up using the penultimate take where Gregg played with a lot of freedom and sounded energetic and inspired.
The final take was just out there. Everyone loved it, but it was just a little too OTT for the film.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Ibanez_V12 / Music Computers
82
tracktension / So much gear, so little time!
1
Maison77 / Drums!
4
TwinkleToes / The Moan Zone
5

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.