Are today's top "mainstream" mix engineers complicit in the decline of good music ?

[sage691]

I don't know if this topic has been discussed here before, as I did not follow the rules and do a search for it. After very recently having had an exciting experience of spending some time in the room where a very well known mix engineer was doing his "thang" on an also VERY well known and successful pop/rock act, I must say that I left with a very deep impression of just how much the ME is responsible for the end result that the public gets to hear. I was quite lucky to know the right person (who knows someone who knows the drummer in the band), and was essentially able to sneak in as an outsider. It was probably the most educational experience I have yet had concerning the different levels of the music production process, and just how much weight is put upon the shoulders of the ME.

Anyway, the point I really want to get to was concerning what completely and utterly SHOCKED me about this experience! No, it was not some secret box or chain of esoteric gear, nor was it the incredible speed at which he made his MANY processing decisions; what completely and utterly stunned me was how totally uninspired, weak, and drab the raw tracks that the artist/producer handed over to the ME were. They were so boring and sterile sounding that I would have literally been embarrassed to have anyone hear it if I was the creator. And this is a BIG band with BIG sales figures! I was told later that the band records most all of there overdubs and vox at home (like many of us here) on their own rigs, and the drums were cut at a real quality facility, and that this is pretty standard these days with most artists. I just can't even put it into words how totally drab and uninspiring these raw tracks were !!! There was virtually no emotional dynamic expression, just completely contrived cliche performances of soul-less "let's get this done so we can make some more $" progressions. Then, he started doing the smoke and mirrors "tricks of the trade" and actually started making this totally boring drivel into something half-interesting. It would be a grotesquely abhorrent understatement to say that he was merely "enhancing" or "accentuating" something special that was already there; indeed, he was literally making something that was absolutely un-engaging from a musical listener's standpoint into SOMETHING ENGAGING! Still drivel, still cliche, still mechanical sounding -- but ENGAGING ! Many of the usual "hype" methods of processing audio that are discussed here were employed, and yet there were a few very important others that I haven't seen discussed here. But that's not the point of this thread!!

I couldn't help but feeling after that experience that, as far as the mainstream is concerned, great engineers have essentially replaced great musicians today. I say this because they are literally depended upon by artists and producers to create "excitement" in otherwise boring, formulaic music. In other words, there is alot more to it than merely knowing which knobs to tweak and which effects to add; to me he was serving more of the role of what probably used to be a producer, because he had to take something lifeless and dull and give it a BIG facelift! I would think back in the day if something sounded drab and dull the producer would kick the artist in the arse and get them to pull something better out of their gut. We all know how 2 performances of the same riff or vox part can sound completely different in terms of emotional energy and "engaging-ness".

This also got me thinking about how many posts I have seen over the years on GS about the decline of the music industry, and more specifically the unprecedented decline of major labels promoting ground breaking type artists, in favor of teeny bopper manufactured corporate pop idols. There seems to be a majority here that shares these very sentiments from what I have read, which can be both comforting and nauseating at the same time; comforting because it's good to know you're not a complete alien in your philosophical disposition, yet nauseating because 99.9% of the people here seem to be more obsessed with "getting the sound of the pros" than they are with working towards being an inspirational musician and performer.

In the Tony Maserati Q & A thread there is one post where he comments on his experience sitting in on a remix of some old James Brown 8 track stuff. He said he was amazed at how well it was done, and by how just throwing up the 8 faders on the console the record was already "mixed". It's funny, but he credits those engineers for being spot on in their capturing of JB and his band, but he fails to credit the musicians. I find this funny, because IMO those were some bad ass old mo fo performers who simply knew how to wail, and THIS is mostly why those tracks were able to mix themselves! Great performers with great passion, and who could play together and vibe off each other and take it to the next level.

Imagine these musicians feeling they could just give a lackluster performance and rely on a famous engineer to "spruce it up" later in the mix ? Is that not simply nauseating to you ?

Yet, it seems that "turd polishing" has literally become the norm today. What startles me the most is that I have learned it is indeed possible to polish a turd enough as to make it, if just for a short time, SEEM like it is something exciting and special! To me that is just completely mind boggling, to say the least. Perhaps this is what we mean by "disposable music" today -- it is essentially a polished turd that starts to smell after a little while when the perfumed paint job wears off, and so it gets discarded for a new one. BTW, haven't many of you seen a strange paralell to this in the film biz ? With the advancement of spectacular digital FX, it seems that bad acting and cheesy tabloid culture idol worship has become "the norm" in that industry.

Which brings me back to the point and topic of this thread . . .

[NesNeedsGear]

thanks for sharing.

but I felt compelled to stop reading the cliche rant soon as you said "pop/rock".
pop sucks, it's dead, lifeless...we get it. this isn't music most engineers enjoy listening to.

it's not mind-blowing - it isn't jazz, classical, or some form of truly stimulating ear candy.

it's pop. it's for young girls. repetitive, robotic, lifeless, mind-numbing, drivel-inducing garbage for the masses.
as for the engineers....we're not replacing good musicians. Tony just alluded to the fact that it is truly an art to CAPTURE and RECORD music through the use of anything other than the human ear.

[rack gear]

bay city rollers 1976
leif garrett 1977

do I need to go on?

[flober1970]

excuse my french..

"pearls to the pigs"

F

[narcoman]

OP:

sometimes yes, sometimes no.... that simple.

[Batchainpuller78]

Very right on the JB thing, the production of music has shifted from capturing an artists performance versus creating one with the aid of technology.
You could say James cut his records together as well with the use of technology, but he cuts his live performances together as well, pfeww A Dj would have a hard time following James Brown live band DJ skills

With good music, good bands, the sound is in the playing not so much in the Records, these bands are great live as well, even without P.A.
If you would take away the Public. Adress systems and the Lightshows etc... most modern act would fall apart whilst the JB's for example would easily still be a very funky and good sounding experience.

Electric instruments have done great harm, as most bands are not able to perform in balance and play to a room like acoustic bands are able to do.

and the fact that lot's of sequencing, sampling, gridwork, & digital emulation of analog and acoustic instruments kinda sucks the life out of some music.
again read my signature prophetic words spoken by a wise man in 1963.

mainstream music is business and they will milk a cow until it's dry.
and I do feel diversity in mainstream has become very small.
If I see television footage of the 60's and 70's of music that was shown on television in germany and the netherlands and BBC I can assure you not much of that going around these days on TV.
Amazing Jazz, progressive-rock, electronic experimental music, anything really.
And now they show clips of things that were shown on television but seldom you see new acts like that shown on TV.

I notice it instantly if a band is good, as when they play the sound from the speakers is good... no matter what if guys know how to play it will sound good... it's not searching for a good sound it's just choosing a great sound as they got the sound.
I once even had a classical composer his toy electric band, where he would let his idea's go wild in a zappa kind of way, and everything I mean everything every note, drumhit, pauze was arranged and written, and of course being a classical composer arrangement and choosing the right blend of instruments to perform that given their characteristics, ambitus, etc.. and boy that would just mix itself because the music is written to mix itself. the whole approach is different to just recording instruments and layering them and get them to fit together and mix and blend when maybe the music and playing is not really that well.

[shanabit]

Lack of songwriting skills and musicians who dont learn their craft is the real reason for the crap thats out there now. Mixers just polish that turd and get paid

[superjc]

gimmee gimmee more, gimme gimmee gimmee more; gimmee....



you're a womanizer, woman woman woman-IZEERRRRRR

you're a womanizer, woman woman woman-IZEERRRRRR!!!!



Who would you blame?


Engineers are turd polishers, they have to eat too!