Neve & Neve clones - one man's opinion on the (now totally done to death) subject

[Jake Holland]

I've read several years worth of threads on the topic of comparing this Neve to that Neve. In my studio right now, I have the best example of Neve that each current manufacturer makes. I have compared all of them extensively over the last while and I am here to set the record straight. I have to mention that I have read some real bullshit here on gearslutz on this topic.

All testing was done with the EQ sections disengaged and with matched input/output level on all the units. Direct bass, guitar and Rhodes were among the best ways to hear the differences. I also setup an acoustic guitar on a walk up Gracie guitar stand and placed the seperate mic stand with a KM84 microphone on it so that the micing position would never change for perfect repeatability. Guitar on its own playing stand and mic on its own stand.


Here is what I have in my studio:

AMS/Neve 1084 module in rackmount
Chandler LTD-1
Vintech X73
Brent Averil 1073
Rupert Neve Designs Portico 5012


1. Lets start at the top. Out of all of these, the one that without a shadow of doubt sounded the best was the AMS-NEVE 1084. No question!

2. The closest sounding preamp to the AMS-NEVE without a shadow of doubt was the Rupert Neve Designs Portico 5012 in SILK mode only.
Anyone who wants to argue this, get your boxing gloves on. The tonality was very close with the top end being slightly cleaner and with a little less sparkle. The bottom had the tight focused sound of the AMS but a little less punchy and more of a solid kind of sound.

3. The Brent Averil 1073 was similar as well to the AMS unit but had an exaggerated bottom and and did not have the silky sparkly top end that defined the AMS-NEVE 1084 and the Portico 5012 sound which I discovered during my testing is really a staple of the Neve sound since both of these were real Neve designs and not clones.

4. Vintech X73. This one sounded like it was trying to be something like the AMS unit but it totally missed the target. Bottom end was undefined and mushy. Top end was grainy and the dimension overall was smaller.

5. The Chandler LTD-1. Hmmmm...a very different sound. Great in it's own right but nothing like the AMS or Portico units. The Chandler LTD-1 sounded the farthest away from the AMS-Neve but had a really cool sound of its own that I liked a lot. Where the Averill and the Vintech sounded like they were trying to be a Neve and not quite hitting the mark, the Chandler really should have never been put into the Neve 1073 clone camp. It has a really thick and round sound. Much thicker than the AMS or Portico. It also has some really forward upper midrange push to it that might make a vocal sound a lot more in your face and bigger in a mix than what a Neve might do. I found the LTD-1 sounded better on bass guitar and bass drum than the AMS or Portico units. I'm keeping it becuase it offers something different but very useful. Its like the Neve sound with a couple twists that are very useful.


I found in my reading of Gearslutz threads that most people ranked them in this order according to how close they sound to authentic Neve:

AMS-NEVE
Brent Averill
Chandler LTD-1
Vintech X73
Portico 5012


I'm going to conclude here by writing that if you want the best Neve sound, you are going to have to go for either the AMS-Neve 1073/1084 or the Portico 5012 in SILK mode. The preamps in these two units are very close. Obviously the real surprise here is that the Portico 5012 sounded the most like the AMS-Neve when in SILK mode. A lot more so than the Averill or the Vintech or the Chandler units which everyone around here touts as being the best and closest thing to the AMS units. Not so. The Portico is the closest without question. Believe it.

The Chandler LTD-1 sounds the least like the Neve sound but does its own really great thick fat tone.

The Brent Averill and Vintech left a lot to be desired and did not deliver what the Portico 5012 did when compared to the AMS which is the best you can get right now on the new market.


Get these units lined up together in the same room and check them out for yourself. You will find the same truth I have.

[kittonian]

I don't want to cause a huge crisis here but you make a statement that "unit had an exaggerated bottom and and did not have the silky sparkly top end that defined the AMS-NEVE 1084 and the Portico 5012 sound which I discovered during my testing is really a staple of the Neve sound since both of these were real Neve designs and not clones". The reality is that you are testing against two modern designs. The AMS is not identical to the original 1073/1084, it is a bit more hi-fi sounding. This must be that "silky top" you are referring to. Nothing wrong with that but look through the posts of people who actually have experience with the original modules and you'll notice that the general consensus is that the new AMS units are a bit more hi-fi.

Now, on the other hand, when you say the BAE has an exaggerated bottom end and not as much on top, you might be surprised to learn that the original 1073/1084 modules sound exactly the same. This is why BAE is such a respected company. Their modules are interchangeable with the original modules. Same transformer, same wiring, same module chassis, etc. They are the real deal modules in every way.

Now, that being said, I am not stating that one is better than the other or not. I am simply stating that you need to understand that you can't base a test like this off of a new unit, even though the company is still called AMS Neve. To be fair and do this test correctly, you need to find a pristine, mint condition 1073 or 1084 original module. Then compare all the new modules against that.

Regardless of the outcome, either the AMS or BAE modules are going to make a great recording. No one is questioning that in any way. They are a bit different tonality wise but very much on a similar plane. Both are great modules.

[wildpark]

well iam lucky since i bought that shadow hills gamma 4 with st ives,

this stopped my every request after neve pres.

[kellyd]

Now, on the other hand, when you say the BAE has an exaggerated bottom end and not as much on top, you might be surprised to learn that the original 1073/1084 modules sound exactly the same. This is why BAE is such a respected company. Their modules are interchangeable with the original modules. Same transformer, same wiring, same module chassis, etc. They are the real deal modules in every way.

The BAE does not sound exactly the same as a vintage 1073. Put them back to back and listen to them. The BAE has more low mids and the upper mid range detail is not the same nor is the top. After hours of use in the studio, I found the Aurora had more of what the orig 1073 had than the BAE. Between the BAE 1073 that's here and the Aurora, the Aurora gets used 100% of the time and the BAE at the moment gets used for scratch gits.

[Duardo]

that's what i keep saying to everyone : why bother with a clone when you can nearly get the REAL THING designed by Rupert HIMSELF

I think that Rupert himself would not necessarily be happy to hear that people are under the impression that his new units sound almost identical to an original 1073. I think he'd be happy to hear that people prefer them, but he's said many times that he doesn't consider the 1073 to be such a great-sounding preamp and is a bit frustrated that people find it to be so desirable, when each of his later designs he finds to be an improvement over the previous ones. I think adding the "silk" knob was a good way to give a nod to the past while still striving for a cleaner, more open sound...kind of a best of both worlds-type scenario...but he's not trying to replace his old designs.

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Jake Holland

Get these units lined up together in the same room and check them out for yourself. You will find the same truth I have.

in a post replete with dismissively arrogant perspectives, this statement reigns supreme.

my gram always said 'sunshine, you can be right, or you can be effective. take your pick.'

and now, i'll stand back and observe the outflow of gratitude for setting us all straight.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Jake Holland]

Yes. Why the heck would people buy a Neve clone when they can buy the Rupert Neve Portico which sounds closest to the AMS-Neve re-issue and is made by the man himself.


That camp of people that find the Portico

1. "nothing special"

2. "too clean and sterile sounding to be a Neve"


You folks really need to have your ears checked.



Also, Joshua Aaron...you sell Brent Averill products.


The Portico 5012 is a steal. It has all the vintage Neve color and is only a smidge cleaner than the AMS-NEVE unit.

[dbjp]

Before we take your word for it, could you provide us with samples of your test(s)?

[Sean Sullivan]

I'm sure that the Brent Averill sounds better than the Vintech, but I paid $900 for my X73i with a power supply, and the Brent Averill and Neve AMS are $3000 new with a power supply (I don't recall ever seeing one used). I'd be very surprised if I heard at big enough difference to justify spending 2 or 3 times as a much per channel.

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by dbjp

Before we take your word for it, could you provide us with samples from your test(s)?

No way! Didn't you hear? Things have finally been set straight around here!

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by Jake Holland

I've read several years worth of threads on the topic of comparing this Neve to that Neve. In my studio right now, I have the best example of Neve that each current manufacturer makes. I have compared all of them extensively over the last while and I am here to set the record straight. I have to mention that I have read some real bullshit here on gearslutz on this topic.

How about Wunder?

Wunder PEQ2

Greg

.

[Sofa King]

wow.
thanks Jake.

Anyone need some 31102s or 1066s?
Aparently theyve just been rendered pointless.

Sean

[pristineb]

This is a fantastic post! The most comical thing I've read in a long time.

I would comment further but it's just too funny!

[doorknocker]

A new era with 1073 threads has begun for Gearslutz! Change we believe in.... Whereas every other poster would start with 'I'm sorry to go into this again' or the like, the OP isn't shy about it, he's 'setting things straight'. I get a kick out of that.

The less amazing thing is that this thread will evolve in the very same way that every other '1073' thread does, or let me say the same way that every other 'I'm right and everybody else is wrong and I can prove it'-thread goes.

And yes, I will get a second LTD-1 pretty soon though I'm concerned that I will lose business over it. Client: 'Wow, you're still using the LTD-1 though Jake Holland has SET THINGS STRAIGHT and you should know by now how un-1073-y it sounds'

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by kittonian

I don't want to cause a huge crisis here but you make a statement that "unit had an exaggerated bottom and and did not have the silky sparkly top end that defined the AMS-NEVE 1084 and the Portico 5012 sound which I discovered during my testing is really a staple of the Neve sound since both of these were real Neve designs and not clones". The reality is that you are testing against two modern designs. The AMS is not identical to the original 1073/1084, it is a bit more hi-fi sounding. This must be that "silky top" you are referring to. Nothing wrong with that but look through the posts of people who actually have experience with the original modules and you'll notice that the general consensus is that the new AMS units are a bit more hi-fi.

Now, on the other hand, when you say the BAE has an exaggerated bottom end and not as much on top, you might be surprised to learn that the original 1073/1084 modules sound exactly the same. This is why BAE is such a respected company. Their modules are interchangeable with the original modules. Same transformer, same wiring, same module chassis, etc. They are the real deal modules in every way.

Now, that being said, I am not stating that one is better than the other or not. I am simply stating that you need to understand that you can't base a test like this off of a new unit, even though the company is still called AMS Neve. To be fair and do this test correctly, you need to find a pristine, mint condition 1073 or 1084 original module. Then compare all the new modules against that.

Regardless of the outcome, either the AMS or BAE modules are going to make a great recording. No one is questioning that in any way. They are a bit different tonality wise but very much on a similar plane. Both are great modules.

This is exactly what I was thinking as I read the original post.

Although I've never tried the reissue, I would never make a test where it was the constant.

I'd bet that my BA unit sounds different too. Even though it's the one with the real Neve stuff in it.

I never think of Neve as having "sparkly hi-end" BTW.

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Jake Holland

Yes. Why the heck would people buy a Neve clone when they can buy the Rupert Neve Portico which sounds closest to the AMS-Neve re-issue and is made by the man himself.

Because you've waited this long to tell us the good news.

[Empire Prod]

There are a few old posts where people have posted files and the majority of people picked the Vintech as the "real" Neve. Then of course when the results were revealed, the flip flop began. "Ohhhhh...now that I have been listening to it for a while I like the AMS". I find it pretty silly

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by Empire Prod

There are a few old posts where people have posted files and the majority of people picked the Vintech as the "real" Neve. Then of course when the results were revealed, the flip flop began. "Ohhhhh...now that I have been listening to it for a while I like the AMS". I find it pretty silly

Don't forget the 'listening on laptop speakers, so can't be sure but...' approach

[Kiwiburger]

I don't have access to all those great preamps for comparison. But I love my Portico 5012, and would be very happy to use nothing else. I would gladly trade my API A2Ds for more Portico channels.

Having the Silk switch effectively means you are getting two preamp flavours for one price. I'm happy to hear that at least some people find the Silk coloration to be similar to the much-hyped holy grail 1073. I certainly enjoy the harmonics that Silk brings to a bass guitar.

But despite everyone telling me that the Portico is "too clean" - I find myself prefering the Silk switch turned off for most things. It's nice to have the choice. I love distortion, but I have plenty of other distortion options if I need them.

And the external 12V DC power supply is a godsend, imo. Power supplies and AC woes are a major source of noise and faults, and to be able to simply replace it with an off-the-shelf laptop PSU is fantastic. Or to be able to run of batteries.

Maybe it's just me, but I happen to think the Mr Neve knows what he's doing and does it very well.

[gorillainthemix]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I never think of Neve as having "sparkly hi-end" BTW.

nope

Originally Posted by Sofa King

wow.
thanks Jake.

Anyone need some 31102s or 1066s?
Aparently theyve just been rendered pointless.

Sean

Right this way, sir!

[piano]

Awesome Jake! Never mind the RUDE comments here. You did what most people advise but most do no do. You ran a shoot out.

Post some samples for us PLEASE!

Looking forward to listening to these.

[in the red]

i think you´re missing out on something! these units are to be used WITH EQ, at least the ltd-1 which i own. that eq is like crack! once you use it and get it, you´re addicted! i would guess its the same thing with neve or vintech or... so why bother comparing just the preamps??

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by piano

Awesome Jake! Never mind the RUDE comments here. You did what most people advise but most do no do. You ran a shoot out.

Post some samples for us PLEASE!

Looking forward to listening to these.

I applaud the man for doing a shootout. Hell, I do them all the time.

Difference being that I post the files and let others draw their own conclusions.

Waving your d*ck around like you've figured out what the rest of us have not, isn't gonna score points on an open forum.

BTW - No one has knocked the portico on this thread yet.

[Doc Mixwell]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I applaud the man for doing a shootout. Hell, I do them all the time.

Difference being that I post the files and let others draw their own conclusions.

Waving your d*ck around like you've figured out what the rest of us have not, isn't gonna score points on an open forum.

BTW - No one has knocked the portico on this thread yet.

I agree Kenny. Its funny that no one has knocked the Portico; its because you can't!

Its a great product. Even if you have less than desirable microphones, it still amazing! I would speculate that the products under discussion sound absolutely nothing alike to my ear, but they all do "have a sound" and whether or not that "sound" is right or "perfect" or the "best", end all-be-all amplifier for any one of our applications is sort of impossible. I think the OP was right in putting them all to the test of the ear in his studio to make sure he was going to get something that would define these adjectives for him. Demoing equipment first hand, is truly the only way to figure out personal preference and equipment selection.

[dbjp]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

I applaud the man for doing a shootout. Hell, I do them all the time.

Difference being that I post the files and let others draw their own conclusions.

Waving your d*ck around like you've figured out what the rest of us have not, isn't gonna score points on an open forum.

BTW - No one has knocked the portico on this thread yet.

Nicely put. Spot on.

[AMIEL]

Originally Posted by wildpark

well iam lucky since i bought that shadow hills gamma 4 with st ives,

this stopped my every request after neve pres.

Really????
I have the Shadow Hills too..great preamp!

But I do not care about that 'I am the Neve clone"

At least until somone comes here with a serious shoot Out broadcated by Gearslutz TV! and conducted by Lynn Fulston with his cool shirt with black and white strips ( the one at Shane Wilson's video)

How many companies refer or claim that their preamps are a clone or are based around the Neve 1073 sound?

Breant Averill
Neve Portico
Chandler LTD1
Avedis MA5
Vintech
Aurora
Shadow Hills Iron transfofmer
Wunder
Chameleon Labs

and maybe others that I do not remember!

So where we are at?
Who are the best clones???????..and how different they sound between them that maybe the sound between other preamps that do not claim any special similarities and have a unique design are even closer to the sound between those preamps!

[wildpark]

i love too touch the monster faceplate and knobs

i just enjoy do recordings more as ever before

its not a neve api ssl clone

its a inspiration itself

and its a next generation pre with classic factor !


[QUOTE=AMIEL;3812852]Really????
I have the Shadow Hills too..great preamp!

But I do not care about that 'I am the Neve clone"

[Knox]

I wonder why Vintech gets the bad rap they get? The REAL reason. Possibly because they sold to Guitar Center as opposed to boutique places early on and it made them look bad (?) I feel if they were re-packaged in some trendy black enclosure, with trendy knobs / old school vu meters . . trendy lettering and only sold in boutique shops, or on the net, and with a trendy name . . possibly people would rave about them. I have 2 X73s that are absolutely usable on many things. Are they the best preamp in the studio or in the world? . . . No. But they don't deserve the ass kicking they get around here and other places on the net.

[drmmrboy]

1st off - can ya post some files..??

1. Lets start at the top. Out of all of these, the one that without a shadow of doubt sounded the best was the AMS-NEVE 1084. No question!

Did the AMS 1084 sound the best to your ears, and your rankings are "I think this sounds the best, this sounds 2nd best, etc.."..??

Or....Was the 1084 the constant that the others were compared to..??

Also.. Most everyone here is replying "1073." Same page everyone, same page!!

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by Knox

I wonder why Vintech gets the bad rap they get? The REAL reason.

Does it matter?

It's the cheapest clone and they're still in business.

It's a win/win.

Don't worry about what everyone else uses. Make music.