Frustration of "Producing" yourself...

[Andysw]

Hi guys,
Just wanting to have a whinge,
I already have an action plan of what I think I need to do with this but I really,
a) need to whinge about it
b) get some tips =D

Firstly let me say I can't post a clip of what I'm talking about, I know that's a real cop out but for label reasons etc, etc red tape I'm obliged to keep this under my hat until it's finished.
With that out of the way,

I'm recording an album for my duo project, kind massive attack kind of stuff, and for the first time EVER I'm singing on 50% of the tracks as well as programming/writing/producing/engineering everything..
So I'm kind of in that weird, no outside input headspace, where you can't be objective about your own vocals.

Usually I only write/produce/engineer and only sing BV or solo for demo tracks so I've kind of never put pressure on myself to be "perfect" (Keep in mind I'm an ABSOLUTE perfectionist, if it doesn't sound like It could be something I bought at the shop then it sux basically)

My problem is that I always end up disliking the takes I'm getting, the main reason being the above and also because ever since I've been producing and singing on my own tracks (around 10 years) I've been using Autotune,
That's not to say I can't sing in tune!!!!!
It's just that because I'm used to whipping up a track and throwing a vocal on it, putting on autotune to get a quick reasonable sounding demo i've never really learnt to record without it.
So I'm used to hearing my vox with autotune sounding machine perfect.

For engineering reasons I don't want to use autotune on this product, and I want the vocals to shine in their own right,
But right now I'm hating my takes because of that and also because the material is quite hard and taxing, therefore by the time i've sung say 2 passes my vocal cords are pretty stripped and nasal sounding,
Which I hate even more than the occasional off tune notes,
What I think I need to do is....

- Practice more and more and sing heaps of clean takes (already doing this but more I think is needed, only thing that worries me is I don't want to become robotic and lose the "vibe" or magic of the performance, I'm worried if it's too "rehearsed" It'll sound stale)
- Sing in sections, so sing the verses first which are softer and quieter and get them right before moving onto the parts that tax my cords, and work on them over a number of days to get a "non nasal" take.
- Throw autotune in the BIN!

Any advice?

:(

[eMM]

IMHO, I don't think there is anything that replaces an objective opinion and the fact that people usually "perform" better when someone else is present (and preferably someone else is running the DAW).

[Andysw]

Thanks

I know what you mean.. I don't really have that option at the moment,

However, i've been trying again over the past few days and feeling a lot better about it now,

I think a combination of practice and singing the song in sections as to not tax my voice all in one go has really helped,

I'm feeling WAY more confident about it than I was before,

Still missing the ease of autotune but feeling like I'm doing the right thing in forgoing it

Thanx for taking the time to post ..

[DontLetMeDrown]

Originally Posted by Andysw

...I'm worried if it's too "rehearsed" It'll sound stale...

Well, let's be realistic... If I practice my guitar too much, does that make the playing "stale"? I don't think there's any shortcut out of this one. Practice, practice, practice makes perfect, and perfect is not stale. Maybe hire a vocal coach and someone to just engineer the vocal session. Then you lose the burden of having to run the rig and you can focus solely on performance. The good thing about having other people on board is that they'll push you to your limit. It's somtimes much harder to push and motivate yourself, especially when you're already feeling defeated.

Good luck.

[lakeshorephatty]

Originally Posted by DontLetMeDrown

Well, let's be realistic... If I practice my guitar too much, does that make the playing "stale"? I don't think there's any shortcut out of this one. Practice, practice, practice makes perfect, and perfect is not stale. Maybe hire a vocal coach and someone to just engineer the vocal session. Then you lose the burden of having to run the rig and you can focus solely on performance. The good thing about having other people on board is that they'll push you to your limit. It's somtimes much harder to push and motivate yourself, especially when you're already feeling defeated.

Good luck.

This is a good point, athough i think the key point is, don't make the songs you are working on stale.

Sing a lot, sing as much as you can. open up your voice and your sound, but sing other things. sing anything, just don't sing the songs you are looking to nail. When you feel you can sing some of the other material in a convincing way, then come back to yours.

Producing yourself I think can be one of the biggest challenges out there. I think it takes a lot of patience. So much more patience than with someone helping that it could be very frustrating. However like a lot of difficult roads, once you've travelled it there are huge benefits to what you will have learned. I think you can learn to produce things better by really producing yourself honestly than by doing anything else. What is harder than looking at and analysing yourself?

If you put in the time and perservere, it can be done, with good talent on your side. In the end having great control of all aspects as long as you are very creative can produce something very unique. Collaborations can be just as unique though.

Russell

[toledo3]

Originally Posted by Andysw

Hi guys,
Just wanting to have a whinge,
I already have an action plan of what I think I need to do with this but I really,
a) need to whinge about it
b) get some tips =D

Firstly let me say I can't post a clip of what I'm talking about, I know that's a real cop out but for label reasons etc, etc red tape I'm obliged to keep this under my hat until it's finished.
With that out of the way,

I'm recording an album for my duo project, kind massive attack kind of stuff, and for the first time EVER I'm singing on 50% of the tracks as well as programming/writing/producing/engineering everything..
So I'm kind of in that weird, no outside input headspace, where you can't be objective about your own vocals.

Usually I only write/produce/engineer and only sing BV or solo for demo tracks so I've kind of never put pressure on myself to be "perfect" (Keep in mind I'm an ABSOLUTE perfectionist, if it doesn't sound like It could be something I bought at the shop then it sux basically)

My problem is that I always end up disliking the takes I'm getting, the main reason being the above and also because ever since I've been producing and singing on my own tracks (around 10 years) I've been using Autotune,
That's not to say I can't sing in tune!!!!!
It's just that because I'm used to whipping up a track and throwing a vocal on it, putting on autotune to get a quick reasonable sounding demo i've never really learnt to record without it.
So I'm used to hearing my vox with autotune sounding machine perfect.

For engineering reasons I don't want to use autotune on this product, and I want the vocals to shine in their own right,
But right now I'm hating my takes because of that and also because the material is quite hard and taxing, therefore by the time i've sung say 2 passes my vocal cords are pretty stripped and nasal sounding,
Which I hate even more than the occasional off tune notes,
What I think I need to do is....

- Practice more and more and sing heaps of clean takes (already doing this but more I think is needed, only thing that worries me is I don't want to become robotic and lose the "vibe" or magic of the performance, I'm worried if it's too "rehearsed" It'll sound stale)
- Sing in sections, so sing the verses first which are softer and quieter and get them right before moving onto the parts that tax my cords, and work on them over a number of days to get a "non nasal" take.
- Throw autotune in the BIN!

Any advice?

:(

Try singing like usual and put your hands around your neck and cheek muscles, and feel how they move, and tense. None of that really needs to be moving. None of those muscles should really be working. All of it needs to be happening in your throat and vocal chords.

Hum your parts. Practice humming them at extremely low volume... feel your throat when it tenses. Learn to "relax" it at those moments, and then start by singing your song above a whisper. Don't SING it... just *sing* it very very softly, paying attention to the nuance of the "swing" and percussion of your vocal and how it plays with the pocket of the music. Pay attention to the "acting" of your performance... attempt to be a musical/vocal "actor".

Try singing soft soft soft, and using proximity effect of a mellow microphone to your advantage.

It sounds like you're pushing your throat harder than you have to, and trying to "belt it" or "SING" it, and also clenching/tightening your outside throat muscles, when you talk about how you are getting ragged after a couple of passes.

Cutting verse/chorus vocals in different passes can be helpful.... but definitely try what I am laying out here.

You might also want to try actually using your "autotuned" track as a pitch guide for yourself.

Another idea, is when you are singing softly into something like a condenser, try cupping your hands by the sides of your mouth and see if you like how that effects the tone.

Over the years I've learned to be a much much better singer and have learned how to do a lot of dead on mimics of a variety of singers... but at one time I was squarely in Bob Dylan/Tom Petty-ville... so that was kind of a starting point of learning how to REALLY sing, that worked for me at least.

Once I saw what a few guys, who I thought were "belting" it were really doing (like Pete Rivera from Rare Earth, Brian Johnson, Bruce Springsteen, Darryl Hall...)... I realized that they actually sing at about speaking level much of the time, and they have just learned to control nuance. And they DO belt it sometimes, but they can because they have become powerful through learning not to tighten the incorrect muscles. As soon as you try putting out more air than your throat can handle, you are going to get that nasal stripped out thing going again....

Also, the Seth Riggs course is kind of antiquated and doesn't quite explain some ideas correctly, imo, but has some good ideas.

[toledo3]

But on the producing yourself, and perspective/objectivity and all of that...

All I can say is that for me I have thousands of written songs (been writing since I was in grade school) and most of the ones I am recording now, are about 2~3 years older than present day... it seems like it is the ones that I want to come back to later that are better, and it is a way of separating the wheat from the chaff.

The other thing is to think in terms of relativity and don't bite off more than you can chew. If it is easier to achieve something to with autotune, and it suits the song, and it's not going to annoy your potential listeners, then screw it. Try to allocate your energies where they can make the most difference... maybe for you it might be on concentrating on the attack/percussive qualities of your vocals, and appropriate duration of syllables. That being said autotune is something I have never ever used on my own material.

Think of how Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds has that loooong drawn out languid attack to the notes.... then how something like "Stayin Alive" is a bunch of really short clipped notes... akin to a groove a conga player might actually play. If you were to hit the rhythms from that melody, it would pop like a good conga part.

It is the groove of the vocal...