Arguing about music...

[Bierce85]

So lately I've been wondering if it's really worth it or not to discuss music with people.

Just the other night I was at the pub with a few friends talking about music since everyone there was either in a band or at least very in to music. I wound up getting in to a somewhat heated argument with a guy about our quite different tastes. At one point I mentioned I listen to mainly older music these days as it possess qualities I love that I just don't hear much in new music.

He responded with "Yeah, it's okay. I can't really get into it" with a very apathetic, disinterested tone almost as if he's been through this argument before.

I found this totally dismissive and rather insulting. In fact, screw it, it was dismissive and insulting. How can you make such a blanket statement about 30-40 years worth of music? What kind of closed-minded, stubborn/ignorant person would say this? All the rock, jazz, funk and soul from the 50s-70s I've spent a lifetime enjoying and based my musical identity on is "OK"?

So anyway, this dude was the "hardcore" type. He mentioned earlier in the night that he was in 3 bands. All of them some sort of hardcore or punk influenced thing. He must of rattled off about 15 bands I've never heard of and cited them as "important" and "influential" and "life changing". He had a buddy there from one of his bands that was in to all the same stuff, so I'm stuck arguing with two guys who think Stevie Wonder is "ok" and The Refused are music legends. Obviously this is apples and oranges but these were their words, not mine.

I told them I find punk and hardcore to be largely childish and something they'd eventually grow out of. Sure, that's a dickish thing to say to two dudes that want to spend their lives playing heavy music but hell, they said Stevie is "OK". At that point I'm not being nice anymore. Keep in mind I like my fair share of metal and hardcore but I've always viewed it as a sort of adolescent thing. Perhaps that's a little harsh or dismissive but I've found it to be something I really only enjoy when I'm feeling hyper or obnoxious, not when I want to listen to something that really moves me.

Anyway, I came to find out today that the dude I mainly argued with was "this close" to punching me in the face over this stuff. I had no clue at the time he was that angry or offended. I was appalled and a little insulted at his point of view, but nowhere near wanting to physically hurt him.


So I wonder, is it even worth it to discuss music outside of a creative environment? Seems like 75% of the time it winds up going in a negative direction for me. I think a large portion of the problem occurs when someone is really moved by a song or piece of music. Once that happens, that song or piece will forever hold a little spot in your heart that, whether or not you realize, is very dear to you. When someone challenges it, you understandably get upset.

The real mystery to me is why a particular melody, rhythm or progression does what it does to us. Do we all hear the fundamental elements of music the same? Does an E to an A chord do the same thing when it enters all of our brains? It must not because them we'd all agree on everything, right?

I'm still a little amazed that this guy wanted to punch me for my "ignorance" when he dismissed 40 years of music as "OK". How can a guy who obviously hasn't even listened to much of anything earlier than 1990 be so comfortable saying such a thing?

The whole thing's a damn mystery to me.

[narcoman]

simply because music is different things to different people. Iggy Pop is important to me. For me, Stevie Wonder is a pile of uninspiring dross. It's all personal - music is only partly about the way it sounds. It's very often about the delivery and experiences of those giving the message.

As for the Refused - I never liked them, but for the punk scene, a very important band. So no, you're not wrong, but neither are they. As for the violence thing - you get the same from soccer and any other tribal based activities - and rock n roll (from punk to garage) is VERY tribal. Garage, punk and all the other hard edged forms of music are less about musical cleverness and more about importance of message. Politics are feeling rather than statement.... you either get it or ya don't!

[Chaellus]

if either one of you gets insulted that easily by music crticing then i dont think its the music at all more like both of you have anger issues

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

if either one of you gets insulted that easily by music crticing then i dont think its the music at all more like both of you have anger issues

hmm.. good point. Is it really relevant though? My question was of the value of debating music, not whether or not we have personality disorders.

[musikwerks]

Wasn't it Thelonius Monk who said "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture"?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Bierce85

hmm.. good point. Is it really relevant though? My question was of the value of debating music, not whether or not we have personality disorders.

Discussing/debating/whatever-ing anything is pointless if any of the involved parties are close-minded, poorly-informed, or dispassionate. It sounds like all the characters in your anecdote were varying degrees of all these things.

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Discussing/debating/whatever-ing anything is pointless if any of the involved parties are close-minded, poorly-informed, or dispassionate. It sounds like all the characters in your anecdote were varying degrees of all these things.

Good point. Perhaps I make myself sound that way but can you honestly say as a person who's devoted their life to music that if someone put down everything you've enjoyed with a single "OK" branding you wouldn't get a little ticked off and say few things back? Even after a few beers? C'mon, what are you some kind of zen master?

Your post seems to passive aggressively put me down for calling metal "adolescent". I see you're in a metal band... I could be wrong, but in a way it seems you're doing something similar to what I did: reacting to an opinion you see as false.

I see your point though, maybe I shouldn't be dismissive at all of anything. It's just hard to be that way around someone who thinks nothing recorded before 1990 is worth while.

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by musikwerks

Wasn't it Thelonius Monk who said "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture"?

For some reason I'm having a hard time imagining Thelonious Monk saying something like that. I've heard the saying before though and I'm starting to believe it more and more....

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Bierce85

Good point. Perhaps I make myself sound that way but can you honestly say as a person who's devoted their life to music that if someone put down everything you've enjoyed with a single "OK" branding you wouldn't get a little ticked off and say few things back? Even after a few beers? C'mon, what are you some kind of zen master?

Your post seems to passive aggressively put me down for calling metal "adolescent". I see you're in a metal band... I could be wrong, but in a way it seems you're doing something similar to what I did: reacting to an opinion you see as false.

I see your point though, maybe I shouldn't be dismissive at all of anything. It's just hard to be that way around someone who thinks nothing recorded before 1990 is worth while.

No prob, I didn't mean to be condescending at all. And a zen master I am not! Especially after a couple beers...

Of course that guy's reaction would irk me. He's kinda being a dick. On the other hand, rather than chalk up his entire musical experience to "childish" and "something he'll outgrow", I'd suggest you listen carefully to his take on punk rock and hardcore and consider its validity.

Yes, I play in a metal band. Punk rock, hardcore, and metal have played a HUGE part in my musical experience, and I treasure it all deeply. On the other hand, I'm extremely well-versed in jazz, funk, folk, you-name-it. I'm simply a music lover. Hell, these days, I find myself completely fascinated by the country music of the 1950s - 1970s. My point is, if your mind is closed to ANY musical style (whether it's "old" music, like your bar-friend, or punk rock, like you), there's really no point in discussing it with you. I could tell you all about how much punk rock meant to me as a teenager, and how its meaning is drastically different but still very important and valid to me as a 20-something, and how I anticipate its importance when I'm a middle-ager. But if you're just gonna write it off as something I'll outgrow, well, then, **** you! No offense, really, but maybe your pal wasn't interested in defending something you just plain don't get (which is fine, if you'd just concede that point rather than dismiss the genre as a whole). His attitude on older music is exactly the same as yours on hardcore.

That's what I meant to be getting at.

I don't think it's a reflection on you as a person or anything. Believe me, I've met my fair share of really cool people who just don't "get" metal/punk/whatever (including my very awesome mother!). I'd just prefer not to discuss those things with them. No harm, no foul.

I only suggest that you give him (and his musical preference) a fair and competent listen before you go writing it off as juvenile, otherwise, you're just as guilty of ignorance as he is.

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

I only suggest that you give him (and his musical preference) a fair and competent listen before you go writing it off as juvenile, otherwise, you're just as guilty of ignorance as he is.

Well if you recall, I did state in my OP that my reaction to his opinions were harsh and dismissive. I'm normally not that way. I get a little heated when people put down stevie wonder because he's one of my personal heros.

Also, I like some punk rock. I also like a lot of metal and hardcore.. just haven't been as into it lately and I've been on an old music kick/exploration.

You make an interesting point though about how punk continues to have a meaning for you now and still will later in life. I guess I never thought about it that way. The more I think about it the more I could see someone holding onto their "inner punk" as they got older and perhaps getting more meaning out of it in their old age than they ever did as a teenager.

thumbsup

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Bierce85

Well if you recall, I did state in my OP that my reaction to his opinions were harsh and dismissive. I'm normally not that way. I get a little heated when people put down stevie wonder because he's one of my personal heros.

Also, I like some punk rock. I also like a lot of metal and hardcore.. just haven't been as into it lately and I've been on an old music kick/exploration.

You make an interesting point though about how punk continues to have a meaning for you now and still will later in life. I guess I never thought about it that way. The more I think about it the more I could see someone holding onto their "inner punk" as they got older and perhaps getting more meaning out of it in their old age than they ever did as a teenager.

thumbsup

Yeah! Ya see, NOW we just had a meaningful musical exchange! That was exactly what I'm talking about!

So what kinda punk, metal, and hardcore do you like? What about it do you like? And what kind of old music have you been exploring?

Like I said, I've been in a sort of country-music exploration. I've also been trying to check out classic bands that went under my radar (for example, I've been digging stuff like Crazy Horse [I'm a HUGE Neil Young fan], Dylan, the Beatles [oddly, I never got into them before now], and the Byrds).

[musikwerks]

For some reason I'm having a hard time imagining Thelonious Monk saying something like that. I've heard the saying before though and I'm starting to believe it more and more....

I've seen it attributed to Elvis Costello but I'm pretty sure it was T.M.

[donsolo]

I don't care what genre we're talking about, it's the same across the board.

Bunch of up and comers are acting like Run DMC weren't THAT important and that Public Enemy was just OK but Souja Boy, that's my sh*t!!!

Punk rockers for the most part tend to dismiss anything with more musical content.

Metal c*ckrockers tend to dismiss anything that doesn't show just insane technical prowess.

RnBers either reminisce about the good ol' days of Marvin Gaye or they blur the hip hop attitude of "if it ain't new, it ain't sh*t"

Jazzers dismiss anything with a simple chord structure.

Folkers tend to hate anything with an amplifier.

It doesn't matter, they're all d*cks when it comes to music because really we wind up debating aesthetics rather than actual music. On many levels, Trane, The Clash, Tupac, Aretha and Art Garfunkel are on the same plane of greatness in their own aesthetic.

But to disregard an entire movement of music no matter what it is is childish and you will grow out of it fuuck.

Seriously though, if you look at any genre of music and can't find something truly great within the genre (great band, great sound, great direction), it's really just your own aesthetic preference. And debating music with people of this influence is just plain silly. You're not going to turn a punker onto Staxx or the Funk Brothers because they're just not going to give a s*it about it because it's just not their "style." When in reality (and here's where you get to sleep at night) the best musicians of all genres tend to cross those lines pretty easily. I mean Trane was listening to more than just bop, he was way into african tribal music and classical. Miles is your prime example, someone who fluidly crosses genres thus creating whole new genres (fusion).

Blues guys tend to be the worst. I mean, Blues is great and is some of the most expressive music on earth but it's 3 chords, 12 bars and 5 notes (give or take, add the microtonality and maybe you're up a bit). But the blues guys only hear those 5 notes and spend their lives at these open mics rockin the same ol pentatonic licks that they learned in highschool. I guess it's true for all genres though, Bad rap, bad indie rock, bad jazz, it all exists.

Get my point?

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

So what kinda punk, metal, and hardcore do you like? What about it do you like? And what kind of old music have you been exploring?

Like I said, I've been in a sort of country-music exploration. I've also been trying to check out classic bands that went under my radar (for example, I've been digging stuff like Crazy Horse [I'm a HUGE Neil Young fan], Dylan, the Beatles [oddly, I never got into them before now], and the Byrds).

The only punk band I've ever really seeked out was NOFX. I happen to think they're hilarious but still very meaningful a lot of the time. I know they're sort of a love em' or hate em' kind of thing but I always liked them. Also I've come to like the clash a lot in recent years. Does Elvis Costello count as punk? As for metal and hardcore, I'm a big Opeth fan. Blackwater Park is one of my favorite albums by any band, ever.. Another band I'm really liking as of late is Between the Buried and me. Not their older stuff so much as the newer colors album. Also, another band I really love which I'm sure you know since you're from Mass is Cave In. The cool thing about them is they're a hardcore/experimental/rock/metal/pop band all in one and somehow manage to do them all brilliantly. Seriously, I love every album they put out with Jupiter being my personal favorite. That's one of those monumental, earth shaking albums for me.

As for the old stuff, I've been listening to The Band a lot lately. I don't think anyone but Dylan (whom they were once a backing band for) created such imagery with their music. There's tons of great old music out there. That's kinda why I've been after it a lot lately. I grew up pretty much only listening to my dads old records, then got more into new stuff as a teenager, and lately it's been a sort of "home coming" back to the old stuff.

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I guess it's true for all genres though, Bad rap, bad indie rock, bad jazz, it all exists.

Get my point?

I do, but here's where the problem arises: When you call it bad and the other drunk guy at the bar calls it good.

[Chaellus]

Bierce85hmm.. good point. Is it really relevant though? My question was of the value of debating music, not whether or not we have personality disorders.





True but really the heart of the matter lies on the views and the people expressing there emotions in which this case you let it get to you...you could have easily just let it go...yea he may denote everything you stand for but do you think that if his attitude is like this its because of music debating.... obviously he's in to thinking that everything he likes is cool and everything else sucks well he's ignorant and trust me if he thinks like that he wont get far in life...some people are just in a phase of me me me they havent really grown up yet...hopefully they will and usually do , it wont really matter if you talk music or anything else... it will be like talking to the wall. You on the other hand sound like you were truly passionate about the topic which is probably true...and im sure drinking didnt help in your situation..so you jumped the gun and took his bait...he had his way with you... I really dont see why there would be a heated debate over music talking and discussing prefernce in ones taste i have managed to talk to friends people i dont know about music...and were not alway eye to eye on the subject but we dont resolve to hastyness or bitterness..i dont know in other words you could have made a wiser choice than to get bitter about it...im sure you had validity to it but it doesnt really help your case and only causes more resentment towards each other

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by Bierce85

I don't think anyone but Dylan created such imagery with their Lyrics.

Just felt the need to point that out. Lyrics are a form of poetry. Music is still just music.

I've always said that lyrics and music are mutally exclusive. Bad Lyrics coupled with good (or catchy) music can be a crutch and in Dylan's case, good lyrics are a crutch for what can be simple music.

That's why I dig instrumental jazz, it has to stand on it's own, no lyrics. Same with Alan Ginsberg, good poetry that has to stand by itself (even bad beat poetry used a pair of bongos or a sax or upright to crutch on trite writing) Hendrix doing watchtower is a great example of pairing good music with good lyric writing...

I once had a kid ask what kind of pedals to get to get that NoFx sound, I said "that's kinda obvious..."

And Punk is more of a lifestyle than a music form. That's what most people who don't "get it" fail to realize. Elvis Costello was more punk than most of these pseudo-punk bands of today. It's an outlook on the world.

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by Chaellus

True but really the heart of the matter lies on the views and the people expressing there emotions in which this case you let it get to you...you could have easily just let it go...yea he may denote everything you stand for but do you think that if his attitude is like this its because of music debating.... obviously he's in to thinking that everything he likes is cool and everything else sucks well he's ignorant and trust me if he thinks like that he wont get far in life...some people are just in a phase of me me me they havent really grown up yet...hopefully they will and usually do , it wont really matter if you talk music or anything else... it will be like talking to the wall. You on the other hand sound like you were truly passionate about the topic which is probably true...and im sure drinking didnt help in your situation..so you jumped the gun and took his bait...he had his way with you...

Here's the funny thing: Up until the music argument the guy was extremely polite and pleasant to everyone around. Apparently he takes his music very seriously and me calling it childish just put him over the edge. But again, that's something I would've never said had he been respectful to my tastes. I agree he won't get too far in life (at least musically) with that kind of attitude. I think someone with that sort of limited inspiration is going to be doomed to just repeating what he's heard over and over again and never really have "a sound".

Anyway, I don't think I really "took the bait". As I described, he seemed fairly disinterested in the argument at first, not really baiting me, and he's the one who wound up spending the rest of the night pissed, not me. I had no clue how "serious" our argument was until 2 days later when a friend told me how pissed he was. I had pretty much forgotten all about it 10 minutes after we stopped arguing.

[Bierce85]

Originally Posted by donsolo

Hendrix doing watchtower is a great example of pairing good music with good lyric writing...

Couldn't agree more... Although Dylan did have some great music to back his lyrics a lot of the time. Personally, when I'm in the mood for the great lyric/music combo I put on Steely Dan a lot. Lyrically similar to Bob Dylan, albeit from a slightly more "upscale" point of view. The music itself was brilliant in my opinion.

[Makinithappen]

Originally Posted by musikwerks

Wasn't it Thelonius Monk who said "Talking about music is like dancing about architecture"?

I've always heard that credited to Zappa.

[donsolo]

Alan P. Scott - Talking about Music...

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I don't care what genre we're talking about, it's the same across the board.

Bunch of up and comers are acting like Run DMC weren't THAT important and that Public Enemy was just OK but Souja Boy, that's my sh*t!!!

Punk rockers for the most part tend to dismiss anything with more musical content.

Metal c*ckrockers tend to dismiss anything that doesn't show just insane technical prowess.

RnBers either reminisce about the good ol' days of Marvin Gaye or they blur the hip hop attitude of "if it ain't new, it ain't sh*t"

Jazzers dismiss anything with a simple chord structure.

Folkers tend to hate anything with an amplifier.

You're probably just exaggerating for the sake of humor with all these analyses, but if you're weren't, you'd be exactly the type of person I would avoid discussing music with.

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Bierce85

Here's the funny thing: Up until the music argument the guy was extremely polite and pleasant to everyone around. Apparently he takes his music very seriously and me calling it childish just put him over the edge.

But calling his music (and from the sounds of it, his lifestyle and subculture) "childish", you made is a lot more personal. THAT'S why he got so pissed.

[Makinithappen]

Originally Posted by Bierce85

it was dismissive and insulting. How can you make such a blanket statement about 30-40 years worth of music?

I told them I find punk and hardcore to be largely childish and something they'd eventually grow out of.

Who was making blanket statements?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by Makinithappen

Who was making blanket statements?

This is exactly my point! And think about it: would you be more pissed if someone dismissed what you love by calling it "childish and something you'll outgrow", or if they dismissed it by calling it just "OK"?

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

You're probably just exaggerating for the sake of humor

Yes, I was exaggerating. But there's a real grain of truth in there. Any genre has it's snobs.

And I'm not sure I'm enjoyable to discuss music with because I am inherently biased towards jazz...at least I admit it.

But I AM fun to discuss production with and on here, isn't THAT what counts?

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by donsolo

Yes, I was exaggerating. But there's a real grain of truth in there. Any genre has it's snobs.

And I'm not sure I'm enjoyable to discuss music with because I am inherently biased towards jazz...at least I admit it.

But I AM fun to discuss production with and on here, isn't THAT what counts?

Well, if we both know going into it that you're biased towards jazz, then we could absolutely have a nice conversation. Here's one of my favorite jazzer debates (plus it touches a bit on production, so it's like killing two birds with one stone): who has/had the best guitar tone and why?

[Dr.Rockzo]

It seems to always turn in to a "my tastes are better than yours" argument. No matter of the times or styles. Even within the same or similar style it can still turn into an argument. It should be a rule while discussing music that you can only bring up one band/artist at a time. If you don't like it then leave it at that. The constant back and forth is so mind numbing.

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

who has/had the best guitar tone and why?

Man, that's a rough one. It depends on the tones you like I suppose.

Wes Montgomery has potentially the best old-school tone with that light grit on the amp and playing with the thumb.

Sco's tone has evolved and I've come to like it but it's still a bit overprocessed. I think the same about Bill Frisell. Metheney's tone is a little too...slick for me.

I really like Dave Fiuczinsky's tone and Dave Tronzo's tone (both are heavily gritted up). And for clean I really love Kurt Rosenwinkle. There's a lot to be said about John McLaughlin but his tone shifts too much to pin down. The Mahavishnu tone is tremendous though, loud amp, big room, mic far away, turn that sucker UP!!!

And every metalhead on here is going

My wife hates it but I'll open iTunes and play "name that guitarist"

[bgrotto]

Originally Posted by donsolo

Man, that's a rough one. It depends on the tones you like I suppose.

Wes Montgomery has potentially the best old-school tone with that light grit on the amp and playing with the thumb.

Sco's tone has evolved and I've come to like it but it's still a bit overprocessed. I think the same about Bill Frisell. Metheney's tone is a little too...slick for me.

Yeah, the overprocessed thing kills me. I especially hate reading about guitar players who clammer on about how they want to sound like they're playing sax. I wanna grab em and scream "THEN PLAY A ****ING SAXOPHONE!"

Ahem...anyway...

I particularly like Grant Green's tone; it's one of the most identifiable guitar sounds ever (IMO), and I love the rawness of it. It's like: player - guitar - amp - mic - done. No bullshit.

There's also a pretty cool couple of recordings from the past ten or so years of Joe Pass playing standards, where it sounds as if they mic'd both his instrument and an amplifier. It's a really beautiful sound; very life-like and understated. I wish I could remember the names of those records...