Is LA still a good place to be for music?

[clarkcontrol]

"Feast or Famine in NYC."

Shoot. Well, I might have to gamble on feast.

NYC definitely has a better dance scene (read: ballet companies, modern companies, theater, dance schools) and I make my day money playing piano for ballet, modern, tap, and jazz classes.

This stuff is (relatively) nonexistant in LA. Didn't the LA ballet have to use 'tracks' with a reduced pit for their Nutcracker last year for budget reasons? NYC doesn't have these problems.

Also jam bands are fairly popular there as well. Rudder is based there, and MetalWood has more ties to NY than LA (I will think of more). I do a lot of that kind of work, even adding freestyle rappers, etc. I agree that the audience loyalty is excellent for that kind of stuff.

I know less about LA, though, so this info about the West Coast scene is gold for me.

Clark

[Backhousepro]

Moving to LA: You have to ask yourself a question: "Do I feel lucky?" Well do you?

Hard to encapsulate living in LA, which is something you have to learn how to do — it's not easy. A friend of mine who wanted to be an actor was told this by Michael Ironside and chose to ignore it. I thought Ironside was blowing smoke. During the next ten years, I realized on an almost daily basis how true his statement was. Before you can do anything in the arts, you have to learn how to live in LA. Interestingly enough, my friend never did make it as an actor, but he wound up marrying one was one of the female leads in one of the most popular shows in the '80s — and still hasn't stopped complaining about life in LA. He and his wife recently moved to Manhattan — he tells me that he's feeling something unusual. He thinks it's happiness, but he is unsure as he has nothing to compare it to. (In LA he had three emotions: Anger, less anger, and more anger.) On the other hand, there are those for whom LA is a magical place.

Here's my best advice. If you don't have friends or relatives that can walk you into the business, it's best to go with an invitation — a job waiting for you, even if it's just a runner in the studio. By just showing up cold, you join a huge population of people all scratching for a piece of an ever-decreasing pie. Also, it can be pretty lonely. People will have a hard time trusting you or accepting you as a friend, since LA, along with being the scam capital of western civilization, attracts people from all over who want someone to make them something (a star, famous, rich, etc.) just for showing up, or being cute. If people sense you are being friendly for what you think they can do for you, doors will slam shut, but you'll never hear them closing .

The best thing you can do is make a name for yourself where you are and have LA invite you to work there. That tends to breed continued success. In LA, people are not concerned with what you are hoping to do, they care about what you've done. It's cool to be a student or an aspiring whatever in New York, but aspirations are not generally respected in LA — accomplishments are.

If you do decide to move to LA cold, which I recommend just for the experience, give yourself three years. If you haven't found what you're looking for by then, you probably won't —or at least you'll have experience and information based on who you are to serve as an indicator of how things will go. Overall, a certain personality type does well in LA. If people like you in general, you'll probably do well. It helps to look good (much more than you would imagine).

Oh yeah . . . if you are planning on seeking your fortune as a musician, the LA clubs are not the place to do it anymore, and haven't been since the '90s. When you're there, if you meet anyone in the record industry who asks where you've played, tell them that you just moved there from New York. Whatever you do, don't mention playing the LA club scene or you'll be dismissed as a flake. (Of course, this information might be out of date, but I doubt it — it was still true in 2002 when I left.) Aside from the flake stigma and the fact that since the days of Burt Cocain and Nirvana, LA has been looking for the next Seattle in which to find bands, your problem is that along with having to sell tickets for the club and play for free, you're one among 10 bands that are playing that night. In essence, you're playing to nine other bands and their friends, all sitting at their tables with arms folded, saying you suck. Hardly the environment to impress an A&R rep. And if your band goes on first, no one will remember your songs by the end of the night — if you go on last, chances are the A&R rep had enough by the third band and left quietly.

Again, your best bet in my opinion is to save the time and money it takes to move and establish yourself in LA; make a name for yourself where you are; and then take LA by storm. (Anyway, that's what worked for me when I was there.) Others I've known showed up and instantly had opportunity after opportunity thrown at them, and others still, worked their butts off for years and never got a break. It's entirely up to LA.

Best of Luck,

-B-

[plexisys]

Backhousepro

Very well done. I know I got lucky when I first started in LA. I can't count the number of people who came, worked their ass off to not get steady work and then just disappeared.

I 100% agree if you go to LA or NY give yourself 3 years and then that's it if you aren't making a GREAT living. Take that 3 years and go be better than anyone else in a smaller market.

[songbirdsound]

Blackhouse and Plexysis:

While I'm not one to shun reality, everyone that I've heard about who's made it said they never, ever gave up. To me bailing after 3 years is a cop out. That's wayyyy too early to give up IMO.

It took me 15 years to find my musical voice and learn enough about writing, recording and mixing to put together three songs that have gotten me noticed. I went to college out here, worked in tech support, real estate, IT, sales, and now that I have a financial backing I'm tackling music and audio production full time. Not to mention I built a great project studio and own some of the best gear, guitars and amps money can buy. Not to mention the fact that I also work in a private studio.

There's no ONE way to do it. While I think you two have great points about making it in your market then moving to LA, I think that will work for some people. Not for me. There was no chance in hell I would have made it in my small-ass town unless I wanted to do Country all my life.

[plexisys]

Michael

I certainly can't disagree with your choice.

I just think it's foolish for people to think LA or NY are the center of the music business. Very few of the successful acts or albums come out of LA or NY any more. There's probably more platinum and gold coming out of Nashville and Atlanta than LA/NY.

My thoughts on the 3 year period is if you are not "making it" you could go to another market hopefully make a better living and have a better quality of living still doing the job you want to do. I'd rather be doing this in a B or C market than not doing it in an A market. Also, as I said, if you are good the work will come to you.

I live in Atlanta, even without looking for work in LA/NY, I still get to do work in LA/NY every once in awhile. None of the acts have any issue with the fact that I'm not based in LA/NY. There are many top of the line people that don't live in either city.

My other thought is based upon the current economy. I'm not a fortune teller so don't hold me to this, but every studio owner I've talked to in the last month is shi*ing in their pants about the business right now. I don't know one doing any hiring and at least two have put off buying new equipment they were planning on earlier this year. I just don't see this as a good time to pick up and move and hope to find work in a new town in one of the toughest industries there is to get in to. To me it's just common sense.

[robmix]

Originally Posted by plexisys

Michael

I certainly can't disagree with your choice.

I just think it's foolish for people to think LA or NY are the center of the music business. Very few of the successful acts or albums come out of LA or NY any more. There's probably more platinum and gold coming out of Nashville and Atlanta than LA/NY.

I think it depends on the style of music you want to work on. To me, L.A. still has the most variety of music related jobs of any city in the country. Between film, TV, rap, country, hiphop, rock, pop, classical, corporate gigs, etc. there's a niche for everyone. L.A. and NYC may not be where the latest hit acts are born, but they're still the centers of the record making business, and still where the big record and film companies have their main offices.

[picksail]

Originally Posted by robmix

I think it depends on the style of music you want to work on. To me, L.A. still has the most variety of music related jobs of any city in the country. Between film, TV, rap, country, hiphop, rock, pop, classical, corporate gigs, etc. there's a niche for everyone. L.A. and NYC may not be where the latest hit acts are born, but they're still the centers of the record making business, and still where the big record and film companies have their main offices.

This is my experience as well.

One day I'm mixing an indie record.
The next a feature film.
The next day a TV theme song.
Another day it will be a major label engineering/mix gig.
I may be at home where a producer will FTP a handful of vox tracks to tune in Melodyne.
On other days I'm writing and producing for other artists.

Never gets boring around here!

[gravityminor]

Lots of great points. I suppose my view was mostly from the musician/writer side of things. Two days into quitting smoking can make you fly off the handle a bit too.

How long have you been out here Michael?

[songbirdsound]

Originally Posted by gravityminor

How long have you been out here Michael?

Est. 1998

[Backhousepro]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Blackhouse and Plexysis:

While I'm not one to shun reality, everyone that I've heard about who's made it said they never, ever gave up. To me bailing after 3 years is a cop out. That's wayyyy too early to give up IMO.

It took me 15 years to find my musical voice and learn enough about writing, recording and mixing to put together three songs that have gotten me noticed. I went to college out here, worked in tech support, real estate, IT, sales, and now that I have a financial backing I'm tackling music and audio production full time. Not to mention I built a great project studio and own some of the best gear, guitars and amps money can buy. Not to mention the fact that I also work in a private studio.

There's no ONE way to do it. While I think you two have great points about making it in your market then moving to LA, I think that will work for some people. Not for me. There was no chance in hell I would have made it in my small-ass town unless I wanted to do Country all my life.

I should have checked your location. From your first post, I got the impression that you were thinking of moving to LA — didn't realize you were already there.

Also, I believe that if you go back and read my post, you'll see that it was a fairly balanced perspective regarding the time frame:

...give yourself three years. If you haven't found what you're looking for by then, you probably won't —or at least you'll have experience and information based on who you are to serve as an indicator of how things will go.

As far as not giving up, I never said give up, but it's important to realize that success is capricious. I've seen men of genius who worked unrelentingly towards their goals wind up on the scrap heap, while one-note-wonders were dragged into fame and fortune kicking and screaming all the way.

It seems you already have a fairly good handle on the LA music scene, and my previous assessment still holds. You also seem to have made some inroads, so I'm curious about your question. Why are you asking if LA is still a good place for music? From a professional standpoint, it certainly is. From a local-band-trying-to-make-good perspective, you already have your answer. For the most part, the club scene in LA is a dead end. But I'm not sure if that's what you are asking. Are you looking for a band to produce and sell to a major label? Are looking to make your name as a musician or as part of a band?

Speaking of my friend's wife, after the series she was in got cancelled, she went from her name being a household word to spending 23 years struggling to find work in LA — actually being turned down for roles that had asked for her type by name. And now, after just 8 months in New York, she landed a lead for an new HBO series. The point is, that LA isn't necessarily the best or only place to make things happen (and it doesn't suit certain personalities). You can find what you're looking for in a number of places. Certainly if you're in West Dog Rape, Indiana, your chances are less, but there are always cities nearby where you can gig. Plus you have the internet to get the word out, which makes the whole world pretty much a small town — if you use it wisely.

In your case, it seems that you've already established yourself to some degree. If you're content with your progress so far, then simply stay where you are and keep at it. If you're looking for a guarantee, I'm sorry to say that success is random (I believe I had used the word "capricious").

Another example of the random nature of success is Larry Fishman of Fishman pickups fame. He calls his company "The accidental business." He started out looking for a means to amplify his acoustic bass for jazz gigs because he didn't want to switch to electric bass. He couldn't find one that suited his ear, so he decided to make one himself. The Boston jazz scene dried up, giving way to rock, but word had gotten out about his pickup. The rest is history.

And as far as being in the middle of nowhere, Sweetwater started out as a mobile recording studio (A TEAC in the back of a Volkswagen van) in Fort Wayne and just built a 30 million dollar facility. Musician's Friend, a $400 Million dollar company, started in a barn in Oregon selling guitar strings.

I tell you these stories not trying to convince you to move, but rather that location isn't everything. There are so many other factors ruling success, and not all are under your control. As I said, there are no guarantees. If anything can be taken from what has been said, it's that success is possible from any location— and so is failure.

It seems to me though, that you are on the right track.


-B-

[songbirdsound]

I asked the question because I want to mix and produce, and without a good talent pool to work with it might be hard to make a name for yourself.

I'm a newbie in this game...even after 15 years of playing music and recording...I'm just now starting to make a living at it. I wanted to know if this is still the place to be. I think it is, just wanted to see what's going on in the industry.

[Backhousepro]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I asked the question because I want to mix and produce, and without a good talent pool to work with it might be hard to make a name for yourself.

I'm a newbie in this game...even after 15 years of playing music and recording...I'm just now starting to make a living at it. I wanted to know if this is still the place to be. I think it is, just wanted to see what's going on in the industry.

I found lots of talent in LA, but the problem is that the flake-factor is quite overwhelming. A friend of mine worked at an LA radio station that had sponsored a battle of the bands a few years back He received demos from 10,000 bands. He said that only four were usable and of those four, none were anything special. On the other hand, you have Al Bowman, who runs the LA music awards — he's had no problems finding talent for years. Maybe you could get ahold of him and see if there's any unsigned artist that would like you to produce them. (I probably shouldn't mention where Al lives, but suffice to say he's a little bit south of you — contact him through the LA Music Awards site.)

Believe it or not, the Guitar Center is another source. I've heard some excellent bands on GC compilation CDs. Most of the musician's who work at GC are there for gear discounts and making contacts. I've heard a number of GC employee's bands whose music is good, but killed by bad mixes and home recordings.

There are also some incredible musicians in Orange County. If fact, you might be wise to hit some clubs behind the Orange curtain (Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, Balboa Island, Laguna Beach . . . well, maybe not Balboa anymore) or head up north to check out the clubs in Sherman Oaks, Westlake Village, and Calabassas. Basically, outside of LA is where you find people who are more interested in music itself, whereas LA seems to attract the fortune hunters. Then again, you could see if they still have the jam sessions at Harvelle's in Santa Monica or McCabes etc. (I'd forget about the Coconut Teaser — far too many posers as I recall.) Actually, the Santa Monica pier might yield some good results. Of course, there's always the colleges.

Anyway, it's all out there with more coming every day. Just keep looking, I'm sure you'll find it, or it will find you.

-B-

[songbirdsound]

Originally Posted by Backhousepro

I found lots of talent in LA, but the problem is that the flake-factor is quite overwhelming. A friend of mine worked at an LA radio station that had sponsored a battle of the bands a few years back He received demos from 10,000 bands. He said that only four were usable and of those four, none were anything special. On the other hand, you have Al Bowman, who runs the LA music awards — he's had no problems finding talent for years. Maybe you could get ahold of him and see if there's any unsigned artist that would like you to produce them. (I probably shouldn't mention where Al lives, but suffice to say he's a little bit south of you — contact him through the LA Music Awards site.)

Believe it or not, the Guitar Center is another source. I've heard some excellent bands on GC compilation CDs. Most of the musician's who work at GC are there for gear discounts and making contacts. I've heard a number of GC employee's bands whose music is good, but killed by bad mixes and home recordings.

There are also some incredible musicians in Orange County. If fact, you might be wise to hit some clubs behind the Orange curtain (Newport Beach, Costa Mesa, Balboa Island, Laguna Beach . . . well, maybe not Balboa anymore) or head up north to check out the clubs in Sherman Oaks, Westlake Village, and Calabassas. Basically, outside of LA is where you find people who are more interested in music itself, whereas LA seems to attract the fortune hunters. Then again, you could see if they still have the jam sessions at Harvelle's in Santa Monica or McCabes etc. (I'd forget about the Coconut Teaser — far too many posers as I recall.) Actually, the Santa Monica pier might yield some good results. Of course, there's always the colleges.

Anyway, it's all out there with more coming every day. Just keep looking, I'm sure you'll find it, or it will find you.

-B-

Thanks for the tips!

[gravityminor]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Est. 1998

I didn't expect it to be ten years! That's nearly long enough for a key to the city isn't it?

PM sometime. If you feel like making the drive to Santa Monica, swing by the studio. I use freelance writers and engineers from time to time and have friends that do as well.

[Greg Curtis]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

I asked the question because I want to mix and produce, and without a good talent pool to work with it might be hard to make a name for yourself.

I'm a newbie in this game...even after 15 years of playing music and recording...I'm just now starting to make a living at it. I wanted to know if this is still the place to be. I think it is, just wanted to see what's going on in the industry.

I can't think of a place with a deeper talent pool than L.A.

Just looking over the rosters of film-scoring musicians that I keep, I can see dozens of folks with decades of experience making incredible music on the 1st or 2nd take, 6 hours a day. Thousands of huge film scores under each one of their belts.

USC, The Colburn School, UCLA, Cal Arts, and tons of other colleges are full of an international pool of world-class, dead-serious classical, studio, rock and jazz musicians.

Musicians Institute, and similar schools, keep sending out rockin' grads every quarter.

There are one-hit-wonder has-beens with great chops from the '80s and '90s playing in bar bands every day.

Communities of immigrants from all over the world come here, bringing their instruments, songs, language, and customs with them. I recorded an all-Hmong group, that has now settled in Long Beach, a few years ago for a film score. Only one teenager spoke any English, but the music they made from those exotic home-made instruments was incredible.

And older, more experienced people from all over the world tend to gravitate here to L.A. to try make their mark in the biz.

If you can't find what you need here, you ain't lookin' very hard.

Greg

.

[robmix]

Originally Posted by Backhousepro

. (I'd forget about the Coconut Teaser — far too many posers as I recall.) Actually, the Santa Monica pier might yield some good results. Of course, there's always the colleges.

Uhh, the Teaser closed down many years ago, was reincarnated as a hipper than thou hiphop club, and is now closed again for renovations . . . . .

[gravityminor]

Originally Posted by robmix

Uhh, the Teaser closed down many years ago, was reincarnated as a hipper than thou hiphop club, and is now closed again for renovations . . . . .

I was going to mention this. I had the misfortune of playing that place on tour long before I moved here. I busted my head open on the low concrete ceiling doing some ridiculous "drum riser" leap. Ahhhh... good times.

[songbirdsound]

Originally Posted by gravityminor

I was going to mention this. I had the misfortune of playing that place on tour long before I moved here. I busted my head open on the low concrete ceiling doing some ridiculous "drum riser" leap. Ahhhh... good times.

Ouch.

I made the mistake of going into the Teaser and there was some horrible open mic thing going on. Never went back. I generally avoid Sunset altogether unless I'm supporting a particular act.

If you don't get killed by a drunk driver you'll kill yourself when your car gets towed.

[Phaidon]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

I can't think of a place with a deeper talent pool than L.A.
Greg

Oh I can!: N.Y.C, London, Berlin

[songbirdsound]

Yeah, London is no slouch in terms of talent. Who's come out of Berlin lately?

[Toasterboy]

Yesterday I jumped in a sparkle blue ocean at a picture perfect sunny beach. What more could one ask for?!?

I was born and raised here and have watched all sorts of scenes come and go. It's an incredible town for music, not just the local scene, but the constant influx of touring/recording acts. Everybody plays here, lots of people record here.

And did I mention the bikini clad beach bunnies tanning their golden bodies in the hot sun?

But the most incredible scene to ever have existed in music, ever, was the hair band scene of the 80's where bands like Motley Crue and Guns and Roses played the Sunset strip. There were three blocks worth of thousands of girls in lingerie parading the streets in high heels and teased hair, it looked like a Victoria Secret ad. Or a Whitesnake video. I was just a little too young to join in the fun but it looked amazing. I've never seen anything like it.

[Phaidon]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Who's come out of Berlin lately?

A lot of unheard guys that will probably end up in L.A. at some point because of the irresistible amount of money thrown at them!

[Phaidon]

I definitely agree with the guys that say it's better to move in L.A. after you made a name somewhere else. I's just makes things so much easier. You skip a lot of the BS associated with the LaLaland.

[robmix]

Originally Posted by Phaidon

Oh I can!: N.Y.C, London, Berlin

Deeper, no. On the same level, yes !!!!

[songbirdsound]

Originally Posted by Toasterboy

Yesterday I jumped in a sparkle blue ocean at a picture perfect sunny beach. What more could one ask for?!?

Amen. Although it ain't Hawaii, surfing in Malibu is nice!

Actually Incubus, from Calabasas named their record "Morning View" after a street that runs down to PCH.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

I can't think of a place with a deeper talent pool than L.A.

Just looking over the rosters of film-scoring musicians that I keep, I can see dozens of folks with decades of experience making incredible music on the 1st or 2nd take, 6 hours a day. Thousands of huge film scores under each one of their belts.


.

definitely London for film score! I've worked a LOT of soundtrack gigs and the easiest and most fun are Abbey Road studio 1 with London players. Apart from that - LA has the weather !! oh yes!

[gravityminor]

Originally Posted by Michael Zick

Actually Incubus, from Calabasas named their record "Morning View" after a street that runs down to PCH.

Yea, that house they recorded in is pretty amazing. Mike from incubus just did an orchestral performance at Royce Hall last month. End Vacuum was the title of the piece. If you're into scoring, check it out. Great themes. Suzie Katayama conducted. Good stuff.

[robmix]

Originally Posted by narcoman

definitely London for film score! I've worked a LOT of soundtrack gigs and the easiest and most fun are Abbey Road studio 1 with London players. Apart from that - LA has the weather !! oh yes!

Different sounds, different vibe. I don't think one is better than the other, just appropriate for different scores. . . .

[AndrewOswald]

I've heard good things about portland and seattle from friends who have moved there.

[ssprod19]

Originally Posted by Greg Curtis

If you can't find what you need here, you ain't lookin' very hard.

Greg

.

ditto. LA is filled with all sorts of wonderful talent. you just have to know where to look and have something to offer