Why most recording engineers suck...

[badboymusic]

[QUOTE=Tony Shepperd;2912972]Please don't tell me that guy who started this thread is the same guy who is associated with this:
MySpace.com - Blackened Heart - Dallas, Texas - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/blackenedheart

Yes, that is the musical genius behind this post.

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

FWIW, my experience as an engineer has made me a better drummer. I've had the displeasure of recording a few drummers who could have used a bit of knowledge regarding how a drum kit interacts with a set of mics.

I hear ya, but the sooner we forget how what a recording essentially is, the more problems we will face along the way. A recording sounds the same as the musician in that room. A close miced, filtered, compressed and chorus and reverb added, that's not a recording, that's more of a generation. I mean, if you recorded a bird singing from a tree, and the recording doesn't sound very true nor sweet, would you say the bird is an amateur, and should respect his recordings more by learning about recording techniques? Of course not, you would adapt the equipment and procedure.
So, the mindset to frown upon newbies for singing .. and not *singing in a manner that serves sonic qualities rather than musical qualities* .. that's nuts to me. It's backwards, it's demanding that they offer up what makes the recording itself good and not the music.

Originally Posted by strewnshank

No matter what words we choose to argue the point with, I still think your analogy about the photographer missed the mark.

There is no pre-existing mark to miss, or hit ... just like there is no pre-determined musical mark to hit or miss. This really reveals the square mindset behinds things: that there is something that is pre-existingly right, and if the musicians does what the engineer thinks is off this pre-existing mark, then he has gotta 'correct' them too.
If an engineer wants to spend his time changing what the musicians actually Are generating, into something that the engineer prefers himself, then I don't feel one bit sorry for him. Simply because he never needs to.

Originally Posted by Randall

I don't make mistakes.. I play Jazz.. I thought I made a mistake once.. but I was wrong

If there was a pre-existing mark to hit, I would say Randall's post here hit it. What was percieved as wrong at first, can be a stroke of genious in the next moment. Too bad that's overly advanced and gets shaved off

[ripper]

Originally Posted by Sqye

.

most recording engineers suck, because of the law of averages.

...and since most people suck...wtf do you expect?


next you're gonna tell me most doctors are great...

.

thumbsup
yeah that damn law of average joes!

[Chaellus]

the dude is some naive little boy and has nothing better to do than to troll and piss off all respectable recording engineers. obviously he's full of it.

[Chaellus]

hmmm why most trolls named blackend suckdfegaddfegaddfegadtutt

[deve]

Originally Posted by Sk106

I have almost never seen a musician tell an engineer his job, I wish they would do the same for us.

Hmm, I have seen a lot of musicians telling me how I should go about my work. I usually cope with it since it's a part of the job. On the other hand, You are right, engineers shouldn't impose their musical tastes and opinions on musicians.
There are other points I completely agree with you. Communication is essential. I am also a performing drummer. Once I went to a recording gig to play just one tune. I was referred by a friend who couldn't do it at the last minute, so I didn't know anybody.
The producer, greeted me at the parking lot, offered his help to carry my drums from my car to the studio. (not the assistant or intern, himself) He was very warm and welcoming. Once I was in, he offered me refreshments and made small talk. He treated me like I was a very special musician. He made me feel that he was in need of my talent. I played that gig and gave everything that I got. The recording turned out ok. He thanked me several times before I left the studio.
Driving back I thought that he transformed a somewhat stressful situation into a very pleasant experience. I told myself that's how I shoud treat my customers, because you get the best out of them, plus they like you and the whole thing looks positive on you.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by blackened

Well I will end my input here and leave you with a quote from one of the greatest guitarists in the world...

"I was talked into buying an SSL board and as far as I'm concerned it's a million dollar piece of shit... The only reason engineers make a big deal about their skill and make everything so complicated is because it gives them job security."

Eddie Van Halen

....

Sorry guys, but I win...

Blackie

I think you're lacking a little intellect to be able to pull that off.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by badboymusic

Please don't tell me that guy who started this thread is the same guy who is associated with this:
MySpace.com - Blackened Heart - Dallas, Texas - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/blackenedheart

Yes, that is the musical genius behind this post.

Wow...that is some awful music. You'd never guess it was done by one guy on his own...good luck attracting anyone else to play your masterpieces!

BTW isn't van halen half deaf now? and how does being a guitar player make you an expert on mixing desks? Hey....I played a Stradavarius once...couldn't get a decent sound out of it, man it was a piece of sh1t...

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by Saudade

I guess that's why in "Tonmeister" degree programmes, students are required to study music theory.

So engineering and music making are much closer related than you think it is or it should be today in the modern age

That is good point the Tonmeister degree (Music) in Germany is very hard to get.
They have to play at least Piano as far as I know and have to play arrangements (out of their head) from orchestra scores. Like the conductors have to train it too.

But anyway the the musicians job is not the Tonmeister job even in classical music.
Maybe they have similar skills but at a certain point they would fail because of all the technical stuff a Tonmeister was trained too.

So in my ideal recording world the enginner does his job and the muscians takes care for good music. They both work together the engineers try to come the musicians wishes as near as he can during recording and mixing. But show me one firs t violin player who cared about the recorded sound..... I think you can search a long time.

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by James Meeker

You are who you work with.

It makes no sense for a good musician to work with a bad engineer. Likewise, it makes no sense for good engineers to work with bad musicians. If you're a good musician you should do your homework on who you are working with.

The big problem is that too many musicians are total dreamers. They think that they can cut a great sounding record without preparation, without preproduction, without a reasonable budget and without focus in the studio. Evidently somehow the engineer is going to miracle them into sounding good. If they can't they must be a bad engineer.

Anyways, I have no sympathy for ANY band that complains about their record sounding bad and blaming the engineer when THEY CHOSE THAT ENGINEER. Maybe now you know why you only spent 35 bucks an hour. Maybe you should have listened to the engineer's work beforehand, or spoke with that engineer to see if there was a connection.

Like I said before, you are who you work with. If you choose someone that is a "hobbyist, failed musician" engineer chances are you are as well because every good band I've ever met were choosy about who they work on their music with.

Well said and I agree 100%.

I'd like to add one thing: Both the musicians and the engineer have to CARE about their work. As an engineer, that doesn't mean that you necessarily have to like what you're recording in the same way that great session musicians might play on records that they never would buy themselves. But the attitude- doing the best job possible and being focused- has to be there. Otherwise it never will work no matter what gear you own.

[noiseflaw]

A Nihilist Rants...

The Blog of Blackened.


What they should have told you before they lied to you...

Welcome to this planet, and i'm glad I could greet you, but i'm sorry to inform you that everyone here is ****ed. No seriously, we are all ****ed. There is nothing you can accomplish here, so don't fool yourself because this place is damned. We're still not sure where we came from or why we're here, but it is apparent that someone played a cruel joke on all of us. Most likely you will be a slave until the day you die, unless of course you are one of the luckier ones, but even so no matter what you do in this life, you can do nothing but spread more pain. This is because life is pain. There is no way around it.

Do not believe what you are told. It will be a lie. I can personally guarantee it. From the onset on human kind, out history is based on lies. No one can save us, so don't believe that either. Look forward to some times of happiness, but rest assured they will pale as shimmering glimples. Like each setting sun, know that with happiness you have been decieved! I'm sorry to tell you that there is no ultimate purpose here.

You will spend much of your time toiling. Or watching others toiling. Maybe things will have calmed down by the time you ar eold should you get that far, but as for peace it will come at a price, so use caution my friend and always "behold the price."

In closing, if you we're smart, you would give up now, but I know that mostly your mind is curious. This is what us humanbeings live on is curiosity and hope. Though pathetic it is truth, and truth does not exist in abundance here. For all you know, when you die, and you will die soon enough friend, the world will cease when you cease, and for the most part no one will remember you for long!

Eat shit and die!

Sincerely,

God (or whatever the **** they call me)

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by blackened

A
Not to my surprise, every one of the mixes was out of balance, lacked definition, and though one showed promise, all we're ultimately not useable.

Also, the asshole that moderate's these threads took down the thread, citing that it was not cool to post my own band's tracks to get remixed by our brilliant community of jackass engineers. One ignorant toolbag actually said "It sounds like this guy is trying to get free mixdowns!" Ha if I could be so lucky!

Take it for what it's worth. This just goes to just prove that if you want something done right, just do it yourself. Which is what I did. And I did'nt even get into what I went through with mastering!

Most engineers think they are brilliant for being able to push up some faders, turn some knobs and route audio. Give me a break. It was Eddie Kramers privilege to work with Hendrix, and Martin's to work with The Beatles!

Blackened

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/piss2.gif

Ahhhhhh. this is where the up wind comes from.
So you where the guy with the mix war thing and now you are angry taht you did not get some free mixes for your myspace acount. why are you asking us to mix your stuff if you are the greatest engineer for your music??? This is not logical.

So funny.
First you know that this is GS and we have some award winning engineers here, not only backyard engineers like you and me.

You are complaining about that engineers do not get your stuff right.
You have a problem with yourself I deeply believe this.
You expect for 5000$ recording and mixing a 40.000$ production.

Second thing is there is not a single engineer who can know how you want to have the sound in the end. This is the reason why god gave a mouth to communicate.
So talking abut the sound before tracking and before mixing would save your live a lot.

But you show us all here that communicating to other humans is not your greatest talent.
I think you have affront a lot of engineers in the studio... no wonder that they do not like to give you a good sound.

By the way George Martin was the producer of the Beatles and not the engineer.
The engineer was Geoff Emerick the most time and the Beatles loved his work.

So to come to the point if you suck with engineers it is also a problem of the musicians sometimes the musicians are the diva and create an atmosphere where the engineer feels that you do not trust him.
So working with an engineer needs time patience by you that he learns how you like to have the things.

Most musicians I know think I have to treat them like a star during a session.
You guess it...in 95% of the cases they are bad musicians have no timing and do not know a single thing about arranging and theory. The 5% is nature talents.

I have had customers in the past which I showed the way out of my studio because they where like you....no respect and arrogant.

[Neon Heart]

Originally Posted by Saudade

I was just listening to Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #1 over youtube, it dawned on me that at their era and before, music was written and performed with sound balance (i.e. mixing as we know it today) built in as part of the aesthetics.

Composers and orchestrators have to know exactly how to write harmony lines, with which combination of instruments, at what volume (ppp-fff) and how many sections playing etc. Conductors and musicians have to balance the "mix" themselves ("automation"), working with preset seating arrangements ("panning"). The concert hall was the "speakers" because it enhanced and amplified the pieces. That's why I enjoy listening to classical music, everything is so perfectly blended together as a complete musical experience and you don't even think about the "sound" of the music or the song or performance itself as separate components. THAT is real music

welll actually it is the sonic balance of an orchestra that mainly influenced our sound aestetics. usually a piece of music sounds very full and pleasing (these two not necessarily being the same) for the ears when the frequency spectrum is balanced like the individual instruments and instruments sections of an orchestra.

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by colinmiller

That coming from a guy who determined all his microphones were broken because he didn't know to turn on phantom power. And thus ended up using 57s on the OHs because they were the only ones that didn't require 48v. Brilliant engineer he is indeed.

Yeah, its bad enough EVH actually believed that nonsense, he let it be printed in a guitar rag (Guitar World Aug 04) to publicly confirm what most people new all along.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by noiseflaw

A Nihilist Rants...

The Blog of Blackened.


What they should have told you before they lied to you...

Welcome to this planet, and i'm glad I could greet you, but i'm sorry to inform you that everyone here is ****ed. No seriously, we are all ****ed. There is nothing you can accomplish here, so don't fool yourself because this place is damned. We're still not sure where we came from or why we're here, but it is apparent that someone played a cruel joke on all of us. Most likely you will be a slave until the day you die, unless of course you are one of the luckier ones, but even so no matter what you do in this life, you can do nothing but spread more pain. This is because life is pain. There is no way around it.

Do not believe what you are told. It will be a lie. I can personally guarantee it. From the onset on human kind, out history is based on lies. No one can save us, so don't believe that either. Look forward to some times of happiness, but rest assured they will pale as shimmering glimples. Like each setting sun, know that with happiness you have been decieved! I'm sorry to tell you that there is no ultimate purpose here.

You will spend much of your time toiling. Or watching others toiling. Maybe things will have calmed down by the time you ar eold should you get that far, but as for peace it will come at a price, so use caution my friend and always "behold the price."

In closing, if you we're smart, you would give up now, but I know that mostly your mind is curious. This is what us humanbeings live on is curiosity and hope. Though pathetic it is truth, and truth does not exist in abundance here. For all you know, when you die, and you will die soon enough friend, the world will cease when you cease, and for the most part no one will remember you for long!

Eat shit and die!

Sincerely,

God (or whatever the **** they call me)

Oh dear oh dear.......

How about sparing any engineers in your path some undoubted pain by not bringing that attitude into some poor f***er's studio Blackened? If you want to moan and die, do it like a proud animal and withdraw and do it on your own.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by Karloff70

Oh dear oh dear.......

How about sparing any engineers in your path some undoubted pain by not bringing that attitude into some poor f***er's studio Blackened? If you want to moan and die, do it like a proud animal and withdraw and do it on your own.

The amusing thing is that Buttened does see his own rants as the majority does. Silly little boy throwing his toys out of the pram.

[SoundProofStudio]

Originally Posted by plexisys

Myspace.com Blogs - Not to be negative, but I don’t get paid to be positive. - Blackened Heart MySpace Blog

Wow, God posts on myspace. I would have never guessed. You would think he could afford a full time publicist.

This guy sounds like he was either badly molested as a child or hates himself to the point of suicide because he has gay thoughts and desires.... I say we give him a rope and watch him hang himself to his own music.....

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by narcoman

The amusing thing is that Buttened does see his own rants as the majority does. Silly little boy throwing his toys out of the pram.

Buttened LOL

[Karloff70]

Bellend

[malice]

Originally Posted by blackened

Most recording engineers are failed musicians. As a musician, I have very little respect for recording engineers. The field of audio engineering is a field that should have no ego. That is a job for musicians. A matter of fact, engineering is a job well suited for a musician. I am both an engineer and musician, and being a musician gives my ear the musical training that most engineers would only dream to have.

And I have little respect for morons. See, we have both issues.
Btw, I'm pretty kicking with a bass. I can play piano, guitar and drums, and I can arrange for a large orchestras. Still I have to deal with musicians that are failed mixers or engineers and think they can produce their music without any help. I charge a lot for that type of "rescue" gigs because frankly, I believe that somehow, you gotta pay for your mistakes in order to learn a lesson.

The problem here is that engineers charge a lot of money merely to do something they enjoy, and most engineers deliver less than satisfactory results. This is the reason for the explosion of everybody and their mother having a Pro Tools rig. What musician would want to deal with some screwball engineer when for the most part, we would be better off just doing it ourselves?

See above statement, I make a living out of people thinking they save money by buying a PT rig and a couple of pres. Lately, I wanna do more music and less boring gigs, and you know what : I often hire overpaid mixers, because it is well invest money. Even if I can mix, I often enjoy the vision of someone that will focus on the sound and that has a fresh and educated opinion. It made me save a lot of money and time.

The job of the engineer is to record the musician, and in the mixdown, enhance the vision of the musician in the recorded medium. As a musician, dealing with audio engineers is almost always a waste of time and money. The prices studios charge are outrageous. If most studios could deliver a great product at a reasonable price, then that would be one thing, but the truth is most studios can't.

I'm sorry you never hired the good ones, but chosing with whom to work with is part of the craft.

So, bands need to be very weary of all studios and flakey engineers. Most engineers suffer from extreme OCD. I'm saying that seriously. Also, I believe that after all is said and done, musicians should never assume that just because a studio has an SSL or Neve that they will get good results. Why do I say this? Well let's just say i've lived it.

Don't be discouraged, learning how to produce takes time and work. I'm sure you will learn that, eventually.

malice

[bgrotto]

Is this Blackened Heart?



What a fox!!

[nickolo]

Its a stupid thing to say and has obviously rattled a few cages..
There are many musicians,producers and enthusiasts that do their own recording.Much of it is OK,some is very very well recorded music etc..so whatever..no one way to record music..
But a real proper engineer who earns a full living from it over his/her life will have skills to offer otherwise they would simply not exist for long...The times have changed with computers and equipment costs but there are still many great engineers out there working in all sorts of studios from radio,broadcast,post,mastering to pure music recording studios who are fantastic..and hold their position due to experience and being adaptable..For eg. A guy i know about who records bands live on a daily basis for radio in a tiny cramped london radio studio..A band is booked [he does a bit of research on them -listens to their stuff etc..] within 2 hours he has 4/5 great sounding live tracks -straight to stereo [no multitrack] Using a yamaha dig desk,simple bunch of mics and an attitude that puts the performers at ease..Sounds great and he gets the job well done..
Then you have guys that started making tea at 16 and learned how to make great great records with great artists..All sorts of dudes like Mark Wallis,Steve Nye,Colin thurston,Bascombe,tim freese green[talk talk-spirit of eden]Albini etc....+the great Jazz+classical engineers and the younger crowd helping to make all round great records...
If you have worked with dodgy folk or it did not work out then thats sad..Its not an exact science and i am sure all of us have had waisted time and bad sessions,sometimes our own fault or whatever,or simply not working etc..
Theres plenty of talent out there and saying they are fustrated musicians is pathetic! and bull in 95% of cases.People are attracted to the music and creativity and often you might for example be in a band and make contact with that world that way and find you are more suited to engineering or the other way..I started making tea/tape-op but found that despite loving the studio,i did not have all the qualities to become a great engineer,so went another route..Perhaps i am a fustrated engineer ha ha !!!...Its a very demanding and specialist career full of all sorts of engineers/engineer-prods who's goal is to get it down working with artists,musicians etc..
The only problem in that department is great facilities with brilliant live rooms and staff closing down and records being made with 1 guy and a PC..Still those cool top engineers are adapting,creating smaller studios to make music with todays budgets and changes..[for eg -Mark Wallis and goodluck studios] There are many stunning engineers about..,new and established....Its your music,therefore part of making great recordings is the responsibility and debate of who to bring in...Not always easy but thats not due to a lack of solid sound engineers..Musicians are getting to record these days and thats not bad but you can not beat a great team of varying talent and experience to yield brilliant results...
Think i got sucked in on this one!!!!Ignorant comments!!!
One last thing ,i know an absolute amazing pro engineer who happens to be a stunning musician too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by bgrotto

Is this Blackened Heart?



What a fox!!

Needs to learn how to smile though......

[Neon Heart]

Originally Posted by moracspace

As it stands now,there are more suck arse musicians out there than suck arse engineers.

But that's also because there are more musicians than engineers.
the problem is that everybody can call himself "musician" and everyone is allowed to call himself "sound engineer", without any education in that craft at all (at least in the US, as far as I know). that's a good thing over here: the term "sound engineer" is protected and can only be used by people that have made their diploma in that particular field. which is no guarantee for good work but one should expect to at least have someone who had the possibility to receive a good foundation in that field to their hand.

[nickolo]

With respect,neon heart..Its a funny industry and a diploma might sort of give one a rough idea that someone knows the difference between a omni and figure of 8 or how to get around PT but the only real education is in the heat of the studio..Perhaps there should be a standard 2 month diploma for basics and then your PT courses but there is only one way to become truly great and flexible and that starts at tea making level,watching,being polite,setting up mics etc..in real sessions..Thats the true history of how a great sound engineer is created or not..You could know your way around ssl,neve,pro tools,how to bias tape machines etc..but you learn that anyway in the professional environment and each place has different systems and ways etc..Its a skill in communication/diplomacy,creativity and being able to adapt quickly that are the foundations of sound engineering yesterday and today.....
Any learning has to be positive but in this case i cannot help thinking its a money making thing...A lot of producers and engineers/studios will say they want a young girl/bloke nice and fresh..ie love for sound and music but ready,eyes wide open to be helpful,polite,make good tea/coffee [ I see a diploma in tea/coffee making being an idea..] Not to repeat private happenings in sessions and to learn how its done 'our way'..
I think its fine to know some stuff,have a diploma of sound blah blah..,but if i had an interview at say ...not many left....Abbey road ,i would not mention the diploma or sound course..because at that level,they are looking at character and passion/will to learn qualities...
I say all this but its all changing with technology and industry politics so its in flux and that chance to join a respected studio and work upwards is thin etc...People offer online freelance services so......??.But those sound schools advertise like they give you mirror image time and know how in neve-ssl room and yet somehow that does not reflect real world possibilities anymore and that is not what it takes to become an engineer[or what it took in the last 40 years..]...
One ad that i found funny from an unnamed college said ''professionals are made,not born''...its all a bit weird,these courses but to gain knowledge is good etc..get ahead sure..etc..but you are best off recording everything and more....IMHO..

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by blackened

Most recording engineers are failed musicians. As a musician, I have very little respect for recording engineers. The field of audio engineering is a field that should have no ego. hahah like being a sucessfull [ not just money gauged] musician doesn't include a healthy dose of "ego"[..look at somesome like fripp... his ego precedes him] That is a job for musicians. A matter of fact, engineering is a job well suited for a musician. [to a degree i agree many great engineers also were musicians..] I am both an engineer and musician, and being a musician gives my ear the musical training that most engineers would only dream to have. [umm yeah if ya need to read a chart..but i just count beats...i can tell pitch issues better than most "musicians" i work with even though i don't know the note playing..i feel and point out "rubs" very quickley]

The problem here is that engineers charge a lot of money merely to do something they enjoy, and most engineers deliver less than satisfactory results. [ i agree i get PAID to mix and record music and it still amazes me that i feel i haven't "worked" a day in my life..i also agree that today 70% of people who call themseleves engineers couldn't make it as an A list assistant back in large studio tape daysThis is the reason for the explosion of everybody and their mother having a Pro Tools rig.[TRUE] What musician would want to deal with some screwball engineer when for the most part, we would be better off just doing it ourselves? [ agreed..i try to pull out of my clients head what they envision..to take me out of the equation would be great BUT most musicians can't wear both hats..some are true "auteurs" most are not]

The job of the engineer is to record the musician, and in the mixdown, enhance the vision of the musician in the recorded medium. As a musician, dealing with audio engineers is almost always a waste of time and money. [wrong read above] The prices studios charge are outrageous. If most studios could deliver a great product at a reasonable price, then that would be one thing, but the truth is most studios can't. [wrong.studios charge so much less today than before..BECAUSE there are so many more studios vying for biz]

I offer up a scenario. Band X goes into Studio Waste A Lot to record said album. Band X spends five thousand dollars in studio time tracking, and after mixdown they are unhappy with the results. Studio Waste A Lot says the mix is great, and the recording is great. What recourse does band X have. Court? Na probably not.

So, bands need to be very weary of all studios and flakey engineers. Most engineers suffer from extreme OCD. I'm saying that seriously. Also, I believe that after all is said and done, musicians should never assume that just because a studio has an SSL or Neve that they will get good results. Why do I say this? Well let's just say i've lived it. [it's the engineer and not the gear..YA HEAR?]
Blackened

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by Sigma

Wow, Sigma, you got totally involved.......surprised you took this seriously enough to type that much.....

[Neon Heart]

Originally Posted by nickolo

With respect,neon heart..Its a funny industry and a diploma might sort of give one a rough idea that someone knows the difference between a omni and figure of 8 or how to get around PT but the only real education is in the heat of the studio..Perhaps there should be a standard 2 month diploma for basics and then your PT courses but there is only one way to become truly great and flexible and that starts at tea making level,watching,being polite,setting up mics etc..in real sessions..Thats the true history of how a great sound engineer is created or not..You could know your way around ssl,neve,pro tools,how to bias tape machines etc..but you learn that anyway in the professional environment and each place has different systems and ways etc..Its a skill in communication/diplomacy,creativity and being able to adapt quickly that are the foundations of sound engineering yesterday and today.....
Any learning has to be positive but in this case i cannot help thinking its a money making thing...A lot of producers and engineers/studios will say they want a young girl/bloke nice and fresh..ie love for sound and music but ready,eyes wide open to be helpful,polite,make good tea/coffee [ I see a diploma in tea/coffee making being an idea..] Not to repeat private happenings in sessions and to learn how its done 'our way'..
I think its fine to know some stuff,have a diploma of sound blah blah..,but if i had an interview at say ...not many left....Abbey road ,i would not mention the diploma or sound course..because at that level,they are looking at character and passion/will to learn qualities...
I say all this but its all changing with technology and industry politics so its in flux and that chance to join a respected studio and work upwards is thin etc...People offer online freelance services so......??.But those sound schools advertise like they give you mirror image time and know how in neve-ssl room and yet somehow that does not reflect real world possibilities anymore and that is not what it takes to become an engineer[or what it took in the last 40 years..]...
One ad that i found funny from an unnamed college said ''professionals are made,not born''...its all a bit weird,these courses but to gain knowledge is good etc..get ahead sure..etc..but you are best off recording everything and more....IMHO..

I agree, practical experience is the most important but my point was that there are many people that really have no idea or experience at all and advertise their services as a sound engineer.
2 months for a diploma? usually takes 4-5 years. there are official unis here that really offer good basic knowledge in that field (which on its own of course isn't enough) and practical studies are part of that. Experience of course comes during the time of work. I related to these not only for basic technical knowledge but also because half of these studies are musical ones. theoretical lessons, training for the ears, playing instrument with exams etc. things that many "engineers" care too less about IMO.
however, the programs I relate to unfortunately have changed to Bachelor/Master now and studies have shortened. less time, less education.
And I'm not talking about SAE crap...

[nickynicknick]

Yup that's right. Most suck. Thank you. Goodbye.

[nickolo]

Times are hard and im sure some good engineers advertise but really there is the proof in the fact they advertise that somethings fishy...Builders and banks advertise but engineers get credits on work and word of mouth goes around...
But this industry has always had that slippery side and plenty of cowboys but you are as good as the work you have done....
Good study and proper experience is all good...but those magic engineering making schools are in tha $$$$$ EH??
But i have nothing against certain media-film-sound degree courses etc....