Why most recording engineers suck...

[JP11]

Originally Posted by JP11

While the OP was a bit clumsy perhaps....!

Hmmm, while I don't disagree with many of the points, I suppose my use of "a bit clumsy" was somewhat of an understatement...

[BlueSprocket]

Originally Posted by blackened

Most engineers think they are brilliant for being able to push up some faders, turn some knobs and route audio. Give me a break. It was Eddie Kramers privilege to work with Hendrix, and Martin's to work with The Beatles!

Blackened

Awwww, come on now...

It couldn't just be that it was a priveledge for both parties to work with each other? Or am I just being to much of a "why can't we all just get along" party-line toting m*fo.

Yes, there are awful engineers mascarading as pros. Hell, a good number of them get paid. There are also a ton of crappy musicians running around these days too. Compliments of Chinese Manufacturing making instruments cheap enough that you no longer have to work your ass off for a year to buy that first whatever. (For the record, I have nothing against the Chinese or their manufacturing).

Any musician who has ever been taken advantage of by a "pro studio", that has given them a substandard result, has been the victim of their own inexperience. If you were experienced, you would know to get some kind of a demonstration of the producer/engineer/studio/whatthe-f's abilities. If after getting said demonstration and deeming it worthy, you still managed a crappy project, its cause you didn't have the experience to play it right.

Chock it up to a learning experience and move on!

This has been worth the 15 minute read. Now, I need another beer.

[jigsawlogic]

Originally Posted by blackened

Most recording engineers are failed musicians.
Blackened

Most musicians are failed musicians.

[Eganmedia]

A lousy carpenter blames his tools. A lousy architect blames his builder. A lousy engineer blames the architect AND the builder.

A lousy musician blames the live audience, the soundman, the club, the booking agent, the label, and his bandmates. He blames the producer, the engineer, the gear, and the mastering house.

There's plenty of blame to go around. Too bad there isn't as much talent.

[Sk106]

Originally Posted by strewnshank

They are paying Tony to fix it, not just capture it.

I call that producer, producing .. while the thread was about engineers. Half overlapping, but still.
And "fixing" isn't the right term to me. "Generating" is more right, he's generating what the musician wanted.

Originally Posted by Bierce85

Fixing a noticeably bad performance makes sure that nothing jumps out at the listener as "wrong" when they hear it ... see how well that works when you've got a drummer who is hellbent on getting everything done quickly then blames you after the recording is done for the audible mistakes.

A musician who blames the engineer for his own performance .. there seems to be an incredible amount of such complete nutcases around (?) that's indeed like someone blaming the photographer because he doesn't like his own looks.

[Kronos147]

Originally Posted by blackened

As a test, the other day I offered up the master tracks to one of my songs, and from it I received several mixes. Five engineers downloaded the tracks...every one of the mixes was out of balance, lacked definition, and though one showed promise, all we're ultimately not useable.

Sounds like you got what you paid for.

Perhaps the 'talented' engineers choose not to take you up 1) because they have plenty of paid work and 2) why would they choose to work for someone they never met?

As I said in my previous post, there is a relationship there. Treat it casually, and expect casual results.

Good luck on your quest for free good mixes from material that perhaps was tracked poorly (based on your statements about your experience).

[anteupaudio]

Originally Posted by blackened

Band X goes into Studio Waste A Lot to record said album. Band X spends five thousand dollars in studio time tracking, and after mixdown they are unhappy with the results. Studio Waste A Lot says the mix is great, and the recording is great. What recourse does band X have. Court? Na probably not.

Maybe the problem was that Band X tried to cut a 14 song album with a $5,000.00 budget and expected it to sound like something released on Sony Records. They probably hit the studio totally unprepared/unrehearsed with a drummer that hadn't changed his heads in 5 years (not that it mattered since he doesn't know how to tune them, hit them properly, or hold a groove anyway), a bunch of crap gear, and poorly written songs containing poorly written (and executed) parts that they expected the engineer at Studio Waste A Lot to "fix in the mix".

Other than Jazz musicians I have had exactly 1 band in the last 5 years (not including major label clients) that has come in and actually been able to set up live and play AS A BAND and make it sound killer on the spot. These guys probably COULD cut a whole record for $5k if they wanted to. The funny thing about them is that they don't want to rush through a record like that since they actually work on their craft, rehearse, and are capable of releasing a real record if they put the time and money into it.

As far as engineers sucking, a lot of them probably do. In order to be a great engineer you have to be born with SOMETHING (I believe). You can train your ears and get better over time but all of the engineers I truly respect seem to have been born with something special to begin with. From there, it's years and years of perfecting your craft and always knowing that you have more to learn (no matter how many awards you win or how many people kiss your ass). In addition, you need to help keep the band on task and the project running smoothly. Gear and rooms are very important but still secondary to an engineers ears and ability to communicate with his/her client.

Oh.. And taking the time to learn and understand/care about what your CLIENT WANTS instead of just going through the motions? That's invaluable and the #1 reason I'm not only still in business but booked pretty much non-stop through the end of December at my place.

There is still a need and a market for quality built rooms with quality gear. If you can couple that with excellent engineers who "get it" and offer it all at a reasonable price, there is plenty of work to be had.

[Joe Porto]

FWIW, my experience as an engineer has made me a better drummer. I've had the displeasure of recording a few drummers who could have used a bit of knowledge regarding how a drum kit interacts with a set of mics.

Hint 1: if you can't make a kit sound great live in the room, it's not going to sound great recorded to tape.

Hint 2: If I have to compress the crap out of your kick because you have no control over it's dynamics, please don't ask me why it isn't cutting through the mix.

Hint 3: I understand that having your hats and cymbals an inch above your drums enables you to play 32nd note cymbal fills, but don't complain that there is too much hat bleed on the snare.

Hint 4: Moon gel and gaffer's tape is NOT the way to stop your drums from ringing. LEARN HOW TO TUNE YOUR INSTRUMENT!

[Joe Porto]

Originally Posted by anteupaudio

In order to be a great engineer you have to be born with SOMETHING (I believe). You can train your ears and get better over time but all of the engineers I truly respect seem to have been born with something special to begin with.

I agree. I think one of the biggest assets of a great engineer is having the confidence to break the rules.

[JordanA]

Originally Posted by blackened

As a test, the other day I offered up the master tracks to one of my songs, and from it I received several mixes. Five engineers downloaded the tracks, which I chose a notoriously difficult song and track off my album, which at this point is irrelevant. Not to my surprise, every one of the mixes was out of balance, lacked definition, and though one showed promise, all we're ultimately not useable.

Also, the asshole that moderate's these threads took down the thread, citing that it was not cool to post my own band's tracks to get remixed by our brilliant community of jackass engineers. One ignorant toolbag actually said "It sounds like this guy is trying to get free mixdowns!" Ha if I could be so lucky!

Take it for what it's worth. This just goes to just prove that if you want something done right, just do it yourself. Which is what I did. And I did'nt even get into what I went through with mastering!



http://www.gearslutz.com/board/images/smilies/piss2.gif

I remember his music
Here is his link
MySpace.com - Blackened Heart - Dallas, Texas - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/blackenedheart

The music speaks for itself

[blackened]

Well I will end my input here and leave you with a quote from one of the greatest guitarists in the world...

"I was talked into buying an SSL board and as far as I'm concerned it's a million dollar piece of shit... The only reason engineers make a big deal about their skill and make everything so complicated is because it gives them job security."

Eddie Van Halen

....

Sorry guys, but I win...

Blackie

[TheArchitect]

Originally Posted by blackened

Well I will end my input here and leave you with a quote from one of the greatest guitarists in the world...

"I was talked into buying an SSL board and as far as I'm concerned it's a million dollar piece of shit... The only reason engineers make a big deal about their skill and make everything so complicated is because it gives them job security."

Eddie Van Halen

....

Sorry guys, but I win...

Blackie

Oh goody, we're quoting the poster child of "just because you can play guitar well doesn't mean you know shit about audio engineering" now, one EVH himself.

Have you actually listened to the steaming pile of shit EVH did on his own? If that's all you have to support your position, WE win.

[sage691]

Originally Posted by blackened

Most recording engineers are failed musicians. As a musician, I have very little respect for recording engineers. The field of audio engineering is a field that should have no ego. That is a job for musicians. A matter of fact, engineering is a job well suited for a musician. I am both an engineer and musician, and being a musician gives my ear the musical training that most engineers would only dream to have.

The problem here is that engineers charge a lot of money merely to do something they enjoy, and most engineers deliver less than satisfactory results. This is the reason for the explosion of everybody and their mother having a Pro Tools rig. What musician would want to deal with some screwball engineer when for the most part, we would be better off just doing it ourselves?

The job of the engineer is to record the musician, and in the mixdown, enhance the vision of the musician in the recorded medium. As a musician, dealing with audio engineers is almost always a waste of time and money. The prices studios charge are outrageous. If most studios could deliver a great product at a reasonable price, then that would be one thing, but the truth is most studios can't.

I offer up a scenario. Band X goes into Studio Waste A Lot to record said album. Band X spends five thousand dollars in studio time tracking, and after mixdown they are unhappy with the results. Studio Waste A Lot says the mix is great, and the recording is great. What recourse does band X have. Court? Na probably not.

So, bands need to be very weary of all studios and flakey engineers. Most engineers suffer from extreme OCD. I'm saying that seriously. Also, I believe that after all is said and done, musicians should never assume that just because a studio has an SSL or Neve that they will get good results. Why do I say this? Well let's just say i've lived it.

Blackened

Well, I know alot of you here were offended by this post; but I have to admit that some of his points are valid and likely come from having 1 or more bad experiences with studios and engineers. Look at the thread title again, he says "why do MOST engineers suck ?" IMO this is actually a truthful statement; most people who call themselves engineers today, when compared to the top dogs in the biz, do indeed suck. There are countless thousands (maybe more, hopefully not) people who consider themselves to be qualified audio engineers/producers today -- yet on the whole frickin planet there are probably under 100 people who have earned the status as "exceptional". This is why you will continually see the same names repeated again and again on countless records of different artists, people like Andy Wallace or Bernie Grundman for example. If most audio engineers did not lack something as the poster suggests, then why would this be the case ?
Actually, the main reason I got into engineering/mixing/producing myself 10 years ago was for this very reason. Here in New Orleans some of the shittiest studios and engineers on the planet you will find, most with $10,000 curtains and the big SSL but completely clueless engineers (mostly interns) who could care less about your band's music and are watching their watch the whole time the session is going on. Why ? Because the primary motive for being there and working for free (in most cases) is to get free tracking and mixing time for their own band's music in the wee wee hours. I can't count the number of clients I have had who played for me absolutely dreadful sounding recordings from studios with the plush atmosphere and big price tag; and i can tell all of you straight up that most of these clients were very talented artists who had their stuff well rehearsed and were good performers. The simple fact was that their projects were absolutely mangled by inexperienced or uncaring engineers, and sadly I believe this is a very common experience --especially here in the dirty south.
Also, I have heard some studio recordings done by some VERY talented bands whose musicianship and passion most here would only dream of possessing, and it was absolutely pitiful and for the bands completely depressing. The studios that are the real culprits are the ones who place the "bang" factor above the quality of the engineer running the studio. Many of them are just business ventures planned by owners who know absolutely nothing about producing/engineering music themselves. They buy all the big name expensive gear, put many thousands into studio "aesthetics" to make it look professional, and then have a frickin Full Sail intern running the sessions. They spend ALOT of money on fancy advertising that talks about how great the studio is and how much money they have invested, because all they really care about is running a recording "mill" and booking as many clients as possible. And the reason they can stay in business is because there is always (every year) a fresh new wave of clueless rockstar wannabee bands (some with real talent) who will be easily fooled by the $10,000 curtains and big SSL.

So I'm not really defending "Blackened" because some of the stuff he said was indeed inflammatory; but it just sounds like he had some bad experiences which naturally makes one very suspicious and non-trusting of engineers in general.

[jchadstopherhuez]

blackie,

sorry you have never worked with a great engineer or producer.

being both a musician and a engineer/producer myself.....i can tell you...that is really too bad.

i've had great experiences with some fantastic engineers.

and now that i am on the other side of the glass..i have had great times with really great musicians.

i have found that....alot of people do in fact...suck

but....

not everyone sucks...at least not in my world. not even MOST of them.

if you have always ended up working with "sucky"engineers...perhaps you are not doing very strong research before committing to work with a particular engineer or studio.

you should probably make records on your own. easier that way....you will always get EXACTLY what you want to hear.

good luck with it.

all the best,

jchristopherhughes

[strewnshank]

Originally Posted by Sk106

I call that producer, producing .. while the thread was about engineers. Half overlapping, but still.
And "fixing" isn't the right term to me. "Generating" is more right, he's generating what the musician wanted.

No matter what words we choose to argue the point with, I still think your analogy about the photographer missed the mark. No big deal. You win.

[ripper]

Yeah, i want eddie van halen to engineer my next record?
ummm... maybe that's why he thought his ssl was a piece of shit!!!
he was driving it!

one time i bought a BMW 535i from some cashed up guy who thought the car's ride was "way to rough!"

turns out he'd never driven manuals before... and it was a 5 speed!!!!

so i got the damn thing for like 8K, had the clutch rebuilt, which he had decimated through his misuse ... and viola!
perfect car, leather interior, great stereo.... smooooooth ride... it rode like butta, very FAST butta!

sold it years later and still made a tidy profit.

say, you don't know if eddie's SSL is for sell, do you?

thumbsupthumbsup

yeah buddy, you win the irrational wannabe of the year award... and for this forum, that's some accomplishment!

allen collins has got nuthin on YOU, baby!
he doesnt like telecasters... you dis all engineers on an engineers forum... i kind of.... like it? stoooopid is just a lot of fun, ain't it?

Originally Posted by blackened

Well I will end my input here and leave you with a quote from one of the greatest guitarists in the world...

"I was talked into buying an SSL board and as far as I'm concerned it's a million dollar piece of shit... The only reason engineers make a big deal about their skill and make everything so complicated is because it gives them job security."

Eddie Van Halen

....

Sorry guys, but I win...

Blackie

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by blackened

"I was talked into buying an SSL board and as far as I'm concerned it's a million dollar piece of shit...

Eddie Van Halen

I agree with Eddie about SSL....however I think Ediie should try and remember that it was a very talented producer/engineer that helped him create a few magical sounding records. Templeman deserves a good chunk of the credit there. Undeniable.

Nick

[Svens]

Originally Posted by stafs

Dude, if you're an musician AND engineer, how did you let that happen?

Exactly. Blackened is neither a musician or a engineer. He might be a negative, frustrated musician or engineer, and as we all know, those guys are the worst. Blaming you for the crap they play, and too make them feel and look better, they post shit on GS. A wannabee.

And all those carsalesmen suck too, I'm a mechanic and I bought a car from one of those guys, and the car sucks. All those carsalesmen are failed mechanics. Booh! I once was talked into a Bentley, and it was a crappy car!!! So guys, if you ever want to buy a car, be very, VERY carefull...I lived it!!

And Eddie van Halen...what great albums did he engineer? I mean if George Martin, Flemming Rasmussen or one of your idols tell you that Eddies guitar sucks....I tells you more about them then it tells you about the instrument...

[Joe Porto]

Originally Posted by nickynicknick

I agree with Eddie about SSL....however I think Ediie should try and remember that it was a very talented producer/engineer that helped him create a few magical sounding records. Templeman deserves a good chunk of the credit there. Undeniable.

Nick

Have you ever heard the demo for VHI ? Crap guitar sound, Very little lead guitar work and lot's of doubled rhythm tracks.

It was Templeman who helped design the VH guitar tone. It was he who convinced Eddie to play more lead guitar, and it was he who had Eddie play more interesting and embellished rhythms, which ultimately needed no doubling.

In fact, listening to the demo, they sounded like a very mediocre band with a good singer.

[nickynicknick]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

Have you ever heard the demo for VHI ? Crap guitar sound, Very little lead guitar work and lot's of doubled rhythm tracks.

It was Templeman who helped design the VH guitar tone. It was he who convinced Eddie to play more lead guitar, and it was he who had Eddie play more interesting and embellished rhythms, which ultimately needed no doubling.

In fact, listening to the demo, they sounded like a very mediocre band with a good singer.

Like I said...Templeman deserves a huge chunk of the credit....you forgot to mention the unbelievable and distinct Snare sound

[bexarametric]

Originally Posted by blackened

Well I will end my input here and leave you with a quote from one of the greatest guitarists in the world...

"I was talked into buying an SSL board and as far as I'm concerned it's a million dollar piece of shit... The only reason engineers make a big deal about their skill and make everything so complicated is because it gives them job security."

Eddie Van Halen

....

Sorry guys, but I win...

Blackie

I wonder how much coke Eddie was on when he made that quote. I think he's an absolutely brilliant musician, but I don't think I could ever have a serious conversation with the guy. Is that someone you would really look up to for intellectual conversation?

I'm just wondering though. You said you had five engineers do a mix for you. Did you tell them how you wanted it to sound? If not, then your argument is lame. If mixing is truly an art form, and you gave them no direction, then what did you expect? Do you go to a restaurant and just tell them "I want food", or do you actually tell them what kind of food you want.

Also, have you heard work of these 5 other engineers before hand? If not, then I don't really see your point. Take the car for a test drive before you buy it.

Also, I want to hear the awesome mix that you did. Put your money where your mouth is. If you're going to come onto this board and try to pick a fight with specialists that do this for a living, at least prove that you have a set of balls and show us your brilliance. I'm willing to bet you will be picked apart in a matter of seconds. Until you can prove that you did some brilliant work, you're just a jackass with 4 posts and no credentials.

[tcase]

OT , but from allencollins

Trevor Horn or Eddie Offford to produce/engineer a Slayer record.

and

Rick Rubin or Brian Slagel to produce a Yes record.

I would love to hear both of those records.

Cheers,

Tom

[Tony Shepperd]

Please don't tell me that guy who started this thread is the same guy who is associated with this:
MySpace.com - Blackened Heart - Dallas, Texas - Metal / Metal / Metal - www.myspace.com/blackenedheart

If he is, I think the comments on his myspace page say more than any of us could say in 10 pages of posts.

[plexisys]

Myspace.com Blogs - Not to be negative, but I don’t get paid to be positive. - Blackened Heart MySpace Blog

Wow, God posts on myspace. I would have never guessed. You would think he could afford a full time publicist.

[colinmiller]

Originally Posted by blackened

Well I will end my input here and leave you with a quote from one of the greatest guitarists in the world...

"I was talked into buying an SSL board and as far as I'm concerned it's a million dollar piece of shit... The only reason engineers make a big deal about their skill and make everything so complicated is because it gives them job security."

Eddie Van Halen

....

Sorry guys, but I win...

Blackie

That coming from a guy who determined all his microphones were broken because he didn't know to turn on phantom power. And thus ended up using 57s on the OHs because they were the only ones that didn't require 48v. Brilliant engineer he is indeed.

[Saudade]

Originally Posted by blackened

Most recording engineers are failed musicians. As a musician, I have very little respect for recording engineers.

You remind me of Bruce Willis's character John McClane in Die Hard 2 in the scene where he (was forced to) wore a sandwich board with an overt inflammatory message in the "wrong" neighbourhood. After reading your post a few times I still think you're pulling a joke

If you really thought about it, once upon a time sound engineers and musicians were ONE, before the advent of recording technology.

I was just listening to Tchaikovsky's Piano Concerto #1 over youtube, it dawned on me that at their era and before, music was written and performed with sound balance (i.e. mixing as we know it today) built in as part of the aesthetics.

Composers and orchestrators have to know exactly how to write harmony lines, with which combination of instruments, at what volume (ppp-fff) and how many sections playing etc. Conductors and musicians have to balance the "mix" themselves ("automation"), working with preset seating arrangements ("panning"). The concert hall was the "speakers" because it enhanced and amplified the pieces. That's why I enjoy listening to classical music, everything is so perfectly blended together as a complete musical experience and you don't even think about the "sound" of the music or the song or performance itself as separate components. THAT is real music

I guess that's why in "Tonmeister" degree programmes, students are required to study music theory.

So engineering and music making are much closer related than you think it is or it should be today in the modern age

[James Meeker]

You are who you work with.

It makes no sense for a good musician to work with a bad engineer. Likewise, it makes no sense for good engineers to work with bad musicians. If you're a good musician you should do your homework on who you are working with.

The big problem is that too many musicians are total dreamers. They think that they can cut a great sounding record without preparation, without preproduction, without a reasonable budget and without focus in the studio. Evidently somehow the engineer is going to miracle them into sounding good. If they can't they must be a bad engineer.

Anyways, I have no sympathy for ANY band that complains about their record sounding bad and blaming the engineer when THEY CHOSE THAT ENGINEER. Maybe now you know why you only spent 35 bucks an hour. Maybe you should have listened to the engineer's work beforehand, or spoke with that enginer to see if there was a connection.

Like I said before, you are who you work with. If you choose someone that is a "hobbyist, failed musician" engineer chances are you are as well because every good band I've ever met were choosy about who they work on their music with.

[Bastiano666]

The problem is there are way too many peoples who call themself recording engineers,you know,where you put the line???when you become a recording engineers???A mean,am a guitar player and I have a recording studio,like alot of peoples,i've start in my bedroom with a 4 tracks and 15 years later,i've my studio with about 100K in gears and am still not consider myself a recording engineers but some peoples buy a daw and 6 months later they call themself recording engineers.
I've learn everything about recording by myself,read book,read forum and over the years i've hires a few so call engineers,not one of them ever impress me,the last one i've hires to came at my place had a really good reputation,i've heard the last album he did,really good work so i've contact him to help me out.
I had ask him to do like if I knew nothing,just to see how he was doing is thing,while we was tracking the bass,he was adjusting the compressor on the Quartet,he try a few presets but didn't like the result,I was playing the bass,I told him that all the presets sound the same to me,he told me they all sound a bit different,once you develop your ears,you will notice that,so he continu to adjust the compressor for a few minutes then he scream "Now we got it!!!".
Again,i didn't heard any difference but he was happy with the sound so I was happy too,I trust him blindly,I've realise 10 minutes later that the compressor switch was on bypass during the all time.So all those subtle
change was in is head.
Since this,I don't trust recording engineers blindly.
Like I said before,the problem is there are way too many peoples who call themself recording engineers.

[Sqye]

.

most recording engineers suck, because of the law of averages.

...and since most people suck...wtf do you expect?


next you're gonna tell me most doctors are great...

.

[robot gigante]

Well, if mr. blackened gave me a call to mix his record, I'd turn him down if the myspace stuff is any indication...

To engineer professionally one has to do work to a certain standard, there's just too much competition to do otherwise- the thing is that there are many people who hang up their shingle to engineer for whom engineering is not their main gig, and nor could it be, which isn't to say that they are guaranteed to do bad work, but, you know.

If you don't take the time to research who to work with and to listen to their previous work, I'd say that you deserve what you get. I'm not gonna say that all engineers are good, nor are all auto mechanics, nor are all musicians. The failed musician comment is pretty funny, since a lot of engineers I know are better musicians than many of their clients- not hard to figure out why that might be.