Why most recording engineers suck...

[smalltownjon]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

Which is better ?
A jack of all trades and a master at none

A specialist at his craft.

The best sessions I have works have included the following...

The Musician
The Producer
The Engineer
The Assistant

If you think one person can do all that tell me,
I have never met one in 30 years of recording.

Listen to David Bazan

[badboymusic]

As sad as it is, he is serious and that website is his, I went to it when he asked for some mixing and the site had the files to download. He is not joking, he is this disturbed.

[RMJAZZ]

Anyone that trashes engineering as a profession is an idiot. To say that they are not needed is stupid. When a musician learns the gear, and technics to run it...you become an engineer.....so if it is you or someone else...there is a need for an engineer.

My personal experience is that musicians almost never understand the recording process, or what is needed to get to their "vision"..BTW the vision is often not a complete thought....and guess what, the engineers are expected to extapilate the band's unformulated, uncommunicated ideas! thus making the engineer more of an artist than you think.

I am a musician first, and engineer second. I spent thousands of dollars at local commercial studios with staff engineers. But when I figured out how to hire an engineer I started turning out fantastic recordings! Remember, when you are booking studios, and staff, you are the boss. You need to learn the craft of producing a project and not trust someone you don't know, and haven't taken the time to research his/her background as an engineer.

So to the guy who says engineers are a waste, you need to stop blaming others for your inability to communicate your craft. I would advise you to take the time to learn something about what you do...not just your chords, melodies and lead sheets, but also how the other jobs involved with putting a record together are suposed to mesh. It is a beautiful thing when you actually are smart enough to hire the right people for the job......

[u b k]

Originally Posted by Sk106

Defending is the same thing as legitimizing the accusations. If there was no truth at all, then what's to defend against?

defending (and attacking) has nothing to do with the 'truth', and everything to do with ego.

If there was any social skills in this, this thread would have resulted in 10 insulted yet still balanced responses saying “I really disagree, and here are the reasons why, and I don’t care about discussing this stuff any further”.

there are many types of social skills. verbal repartee is one of them, and is displayed in abundance in this thread. sarcasm is another; pointed abuse yet another.

they may not be skills you value, and they may not be in service of agendas you favor, but they are skills nonetheless.

what you are characterizing as 'social skills' is merely a very specialized and narrow subset of the broader array of dialogs available to people in social situations. life would probably be very calm if everyone exercised those skills all the time.

it'd also be very one-dimensional, and equally as self-centered as the responses on this thread. your own example boils down to "i disagree, XXX, and i don't care," XXX being a laundry list of justifications for the mental position.

it's still ego, just wearing a different disguise.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

[Karloff70]

Originally Posted by u b k

defending (and attacking) has nothing to do with the 'truth', and everything to do with ego.





there are many types of social skills. verbal repartee is one of them, and is displayed in abundance in this thread. sarcasm is another; pointed abuse yet another.

they may not be skills you value, and they may not be in service of agendas you favor, but they are skills nonetheless.

what you are characterizing as 'social skills' is merely a very specialized and narrow subset of the broader array of dialogs available to people in social situations. life would probably be very calm if everyone exercised those skills all the time.

it'd also be very one-dimensional, and equally as self-centered as the responses on this thread.


gregoire
del
ubk
.

Depthcharge....lol

Value the dfegadskill, my brother, for the world would be a boring place without the skillfull dfegad-er.......

.....and then there's 'dignity', but that turns out to be a highly personal and subjective subject........

[sage691]

Originally Posted by olivia_nb

I was going to cut him some slack as some posters have been pretty vicious, but wow! I can't imagine how someone could even for a second believe that they should get a full, professional record for free. I mean $5000 for a record barely taps overhead and the cost of owning gear which will make you sound professional... Maybe these days $150/hour is overkill, if you don't want to use a top flight 80 channel SSL with a large, amazing sounding live room, but to suggest $5000 for a record is too much makes me gag.
I did a friend's record (very good friend) for about that much and I think I probably made about $10/hour total, that didn't include "rent" on my gear and it was far from pro sounding, just because we had to keep it moving and couldn't spend the time and the money necessary to get it up there.
Major troll or major disconnect, too bad you haven't learned anything after your original post... dang.

Well, I'm not defending him but he did say $5K to "track" a record. I read that as not including mixing and mastering, of which the former is a HUGE factor IMO for the type of music he is doing. I think his problem is that he does not understand that the record is far from finished when the tracking is merely complete. Most all musicians (including myself in the past) do not understand what a great mixing engineer brings to the table, especially for this type of music. They think all of the major artists they like just really sound that good on their own, and these geeky engineers are just there to turn a couple of knobs every now and then. If they really knew how shitty some of these artists would sound without a certain team of professionals helping them, then they would instantly lose a heap of respect for them.

He's mad because he dumped $5K into a studio with all the bling and blang, and just assumed (as most due) that in a few sessions he would have a record sonically on par with Marilyn Manson. The problem is that there are MANY studios out there whose advertising will try to convince you that for $5K you will walk out with such a record. They say "yes, we have all the same gear that the BIG pros use" and that makes naive musicians (which are 99.99% of them, especially in his genre) feel they have arrived.

He's actually lucky he only spent $5K. I have heard some stuff where the band spent $$10K-$15K at the bling and blang mill studio with the $10,000 curtains, and it was so bad (sonically) and so far away from what the band wanted that is was truly sad. Ya know, mixed by an intern on the big SSL, rushed, mangled, thin, muddy -- and when you call back they stick by their assertion that it sounds great and you should be more than happy because "real" records cost $100K or more to make.

[emkay]

Originally Posted by T_R_S

Which is better ?
A jack of all trades and a master at none

A specialist at his craft.

The best sessions I have works have included the following...

The Musician
The Producer
The Engineer
The Assistant

If you think one person can do all that tell me,
I have never met one in 30 years of recording.

I can think of three people
Todd Rundgren
Prince
Imogen Heap
and a slew of not so famous, very talented indie artists with home studios

[emkay]

I'm reminded once again of my tumultuous "love-hate" relationship with Gearslutz.
The original poster,who I don't feel is a troll,was stating his opinion predicated on his personal experience. The accusations regarding his stupidity and the assumptions regarding his lack of talent reflect more negatively on the character of the angry respondents than they do on the original poster. Wouldn't it be more constructive to accept this man's stance,whether you agree or not? In doing so, we,including the original poster, might all learn something by engaging in civil dialogue.. If he is a troll, then allow intelligent conversation to "draw him out". I for one have had the privilege and good fortune of being a session musician for many years during the "golden" mid eighties to the early nineties when there actually were sessions in abundance in real studios.. During this period, I'd have to say that I would occasionally come across engineers that fit the description of the original poster,but for the most part they were guys like Ed Cherney. Now wearing many hats being an indie artist and FTP session player in my home studio, I appreciate the tremendous challenges faced by producers,engineers and musicians and feel fortunate that I suffer from multiple personality disorder.
Sorry about getting a little OT,but in conclusion,I think we could learn alot by lightening up a bit,be open enough to listen,even if you don't agree.
Sometimes you can unearth a gem in a field of manure.
Here's to peace and great music in '08 and beyond.

[Joe Porto]

Originally Posted by emkay

I'm reminded once again of my tumultuous "love-hate" relationship with Gearslutz.

I don't have a need to reply to the OP, as I don't think it would do any good, but consider this:

1: He just joined the forum, and this was the first time he has posted, and has only posted to this thread. This means either he is seeking out an audience to instigate, or that he has created a second screen name specifically to instigate.

2: He actually started another thread which was much more venomous, and was directed specifically toward the members of this site. This thread was immediately deleted by the moderators.

So, while I agree that some of the replies have brought other members of GS down to this guys level, the reality is that the OP brings nothing of value to this forum, and therefore should not warrant a response.

DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!

[RonCarlston]

Originally Posted by DigitMus

OMG!!! I can't help myself..... Jules, just ban me now; I've gotta do it - Blackened, you deserve this:



You swine. You vulgar little maggot. You worthless bag of filth. As they say in Texas, I'll bet you couldn't pour piss out of a boot with instructions on the heel.
You are a canker. A sore that won't go away. I would rather kiss a lawyer than be seen with you. You're a putrescent mass, a walking vomit. You are a spineless little worm deserving nothing but the profoundest contempt. You are a jerk, a cad, a weasel. Your life is a monument to stupidity. You are a stench, a revulsion, a big suck on a sour lemon.
You are a bleating foal, a curdled staggering mutant dwarf smeared richly with the effluvia and offal accompanying your alleged birth into this world. An insensate, blinking calf, meaningful to nobody, abandoned by the puke-drooling, giggling beasts who sired you and then killed themselves in recognition of what they had done. I will never get over the embarrassment of belonging to the same species as you. You are a monster, an ogre, a malformity. I barf at the very thought of you.
You have all the appeal of a paper cut. Lepers avoid you. You are vile, worthless, less than nothing. You are a weed, a fungus, the dregs of this earth. And did I mention you smell? You snail-skulled little rabbit. Would that a hawk pick you up, drive its beak into your brain, and upon finding it rancid set you loose to fly briefly before spattering the ocean rocks with the frothy pink shame of your ignoble blood.
May you choke on the queasy, convulsing nausea of your own trite, foolish beliefs. You are weary, stale, flat and unprofitable. You are grimy, squalid, nasty and profane. You are foul and disgusting. You're a fool, an ignoramus. Monkeys look down on you. Even sheep won't have sex with you.
You are unreservedly pathetic, starved for attention, and lost in a land that reality forgot. And what meaning do you expect your delusionally self-important statements of unknowing, inexperienced opinion to have with us? What fantasy do you hold that you would believe that your
tiny-fisted tantrums would have more weight than that of a leprous desert rat, spinning rabidly in a circle, waiting for the bite of the snake?
You are a waste of flesh. You have no rhythm. You are ridiculous and obnoxious. You are the moral equivalent of a leech. You are a living emptiness, a meaningless void. You are sour and senile. You are a disease, you puerile, one-handed, slack-jawed, drooling, meatslapper. On a good day you're a half-wit. You remind me of drool.
You are deficient in all that lends character. You have the personality of wallpaper. You are dank and filthy. You are asinine and benighted. You are the source of all unpleasantness. You spread misery and sorrow wherever you go. You smarmy lagerlout git. You bloody woofter sod. Bugger off, pillock. You grotty wanking oink artless base-court apple-john. You clouted boggish foot-licking twit. You dankish clack-dish plonker. You gormless crook-pated tosser. You churlish boil-brained clotpole ponce. You cockered bum-bailey poofter. You craven dewberry pisshead cockup pratting naff. You gob-kissing gleeking flap-mouthed coxcomb. You dread-bolted fobbing beef-witted clapper-clawed flirt-gill.
You are a fiend and a coward, and you have bad breath. You are degenerate, noxious and depraved. I feel debased just for knowing you exist. I despise everything about you, and I wish you would go away.
I cannot believe how incredibly stupid you are. I mean rock-hard stupid. Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid, so stupid it goes way beyond the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. You are trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. Stupid collapsed on itself so far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. Blazing hot mid-day sun on Mercury stupid. You emit more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy emits in a year. Quasar stupid. Your writing has to be a troll. Nothing in our universe can really be this stupid. Perhaps this is some primordial fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go on. This is an epiphany of stupid for me.


Scott :D

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by sage691

I think his problem is that he does not understand that the record is far from finished when the tracking is merely complete.

You read his original post and you deduced that this is his problem?

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by emkay

I'm reminded once again of my tumultuous "love-hate" relationship with Gearslutz.
The original poster,who I don't feel is a troll,was stating his opinion predicated on his personal experience. The accusations regarding his stupidity and the assumptions regarding his lack of talent reflect more negatively on the character of the angry respondents than they do on the original poster. Wouldn't it be more constructive to accept this man's stance,whether you agree or not? In doing so, we,including the original poster, might all learn something by engaging in civil dialogue.. If he is a troll, then allow intelligent conversation to "draw him out". I for one have had the privilege and good fortune of being a session musician for many years during the "golden" mid eighties to the early nineties when there actually were sessions in abundance in real studios.. During this period, I'd have to say that I would occasionally come across engineers that fit the description of the original poster,but for the most part they were guys like Ed Cherney. Now wearing many hats being an indie artist and FTP session player in my home studio, I appreciate the tremendous challenges faced by producers,engineers and musicians and feel fortunate that I suffer from multiple personality disorder.
Sorry about getting a little OT,but in conclusion,I think we could learn alot by lightening up a bit,be open enough to listen,even if you don't agree.
Sometimes you can unearth a gem in a field of manure.
Here's to peace and great music in '08 and beyond.

What about his post gave you the infinitesimal of a clue that this person had any interest in a constructive dialog?

If a guy breaks into my house and starts shooting up the place, I never consider this to be the best time to get to know someone or see their side.

[octatonic]

Originally Posted by Sqye

lol...NICE...do you do weddings?... ...(my sister's getting married in the fall...)

post of the year!!!...you are the shakespeare of slander...

damn...blackened, don't let this dude near your a&r guy - he'll steal your record deal with his
creativity - you should study this post - maybe you'll learn something about actual creativity.

.

Unfortunately it isn't original his- it is an abridged version of a much longer, more abusive flame taken from the HevyDevy mailing list (of which I am a member).

I have the original saved from years ago, if anyone wants to see it, but this abuse is plagiarised from another source.

[Croaker]

Originally Posted by PapaMidnight

To me it's all a matter of ethic and purpose.

(1) For some people (artists or studio owners or producers or labels or whatever in the business of audio & music), it's just a about the release of a project. They want their project to be done in some way but published or edited if you prefer... to make something from it maybe but it's an achievement first.

(2) For some it's a matter of fame of gratitude. They wanna be out there maybe in the front row maybe not but they want people to enjoy what they are doing. Those often take it very seriously, not only because of time consuming or money but also because what they produce is a part of themselves. If you hit it or neglect it or spoil it you may hurt them seriously.

(3) For some it's a form of art, like they have something to prove to themselves or to others. Something must happen that goes beyond technical only. They want to go further, accomplish something but not something like respecting a deadline or produce 74min of music to burn a CD. Could be technicall stuff perceived as artistic also.. this border is not easy to draw.

(4) For some others it's a matter of money. For those i don't need to explain, it's like in marketing or insurrance or trading... there are sharks in the pool and you better be on the rubber ring, or have a big mouth too...


The main problem between all those people working together is that they don't all belong to the same team within the same project, and that they are human. Meaning by that :
- sometimes it won't work because it's simply impossible
- sometimes it won't work because not everyone makes the effort or someone failed, or often because of stupid misunderstandings
- sometimes it would be ok, just worked as planned
- sometimes magic happens

It may be deceiving for some people working hard to see others taking the money doing nothing, or taking power other a project that don't belong to them. It may be hard for some people to be unabble to reach their goal or worse not to realize their artistic dream. And it may be hard for some people to put up with everything going on in this ungrateful job.
But that's part of everything around too. Not only music.

Someone said "if passion is behind us, nothing 's out of reach"
Everyone knows it's part of the job to learn how to make decisions, deal with problems and egos, and people.
An "engineer" deals with things no matter what. There are good or bad in every domain. An artist deals with his creation and the emotions the public will have. The producer produce this creation ect...
Everyone has its role...
Try to work with the people the more qualified for you.
Complaining afterall is failure in some way...and if everything goes wrong all the time you may guess who's the problem.

OR....hes just a troll.

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

What about his post gave you the infinitesimal of a clue that this person had any interest in a constructive dialog?

If a guy breaks into my house and starts shooting up the place, I never consider this to be the best time to get to know someone or see their side.

Well I guess I just think a little differently than you do. It's what makes the world go around.
Even if he is a troll, it's a real stretch comparing his actions to someone breaking into your house threatening your life,don't you think?

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by emkay

Well I guess I just think a little differently than you do.

That's not an answer. Quote, from his post, exactly what made you think he was interested in a constructive discussion. Because I can't see it.

Yes. My analogy was a stretch. However, 99.9% of the members know how to behave on this forum.

[Mark Kaufman]

"I'd like to have an argument, please..."

[emkay]

Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia

That's not an answer. Quote, from his post, exactly what made you think he was interested in a constructive discussion. Because I can't see it.

Yes. My analogy was a stretch. However, 99.9% of the members know how to behave on this forum.

Not an answer?
Sorry I failed you your highness!
And is your attempt to be argumentative an example of how to behave here at GS?

[Kenny Gioia]

Originally Posted by emkay

Not an answer?
Sorry I failed you your highness!
And is your attempt to be argumentative an example of how to behave here at GS?

I'm not being argumentative. I'm having a discussion with you, which is usually encouraged on a discussion forum.

You claimed my behavior was as bad as the OP.

You claimed that we should be constructively discussing his points, concerns or complaints.

I'm sincerely asking you, what from his post gave you the faintest idea that he wanted to have an intelligent conversation about his problem?

I contend that if he's not just a troll, that he was at least asking for a beating. He certainly isn't creating a dialogue with anyone who has responded. Even his apologists.

[Jay Kahrs]

Didn't read the whole thread...

Don't care to. Don't have the time either...

Just skimmed it...

HOWEVER!

Originally Posted by sage691

He's mad because he dumped $5K into a studio with all the bling and blang, and just assumed (as most due) that in a few sessions he would have a record sonically on par with Marilyn Manson. The problem is that there are MANY studios out there whose advertising will try to convince you that for $5K you will walk out with such a record. They say "yes, we have all the same gear that the BIG pros use" and that makes naive musicians (which are 99.99% of them, especially in his genre) feel they have arrived.

He's actually lucky he only spent $5K. I have heard some stuff where the band spent $$10K-$15K at the bling and blang mill studio with the $10,000 curtains, and it was so bad (sonically) and so far away from what the band wanted that is was truly sad. Ya know, mixed by an intern on the big SSL, rushed, mangled, thin, muddy -- and when you call back they stick by their assertion that it sounds great and you should be more than happy because "real" records cost $100K or more to make.

Anybody who's making "a record" in the sense of a real competitive record, shouldn't drop that money on a studio.

Find a producer or engineer with a vested interest in the outcome of the project.

Otherwise it's too easy to end up unhappy...

And records don't have to cost $100,000 or more either.

All those Emmylou & Bela Fleck records that Bill VornDick did were like $12,000 records. Someone like Blues Traveler gets a $30,000 budget & they don't do too badly...

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman

"I'd like to have an argument, please..."

I couldn't have said it better Mark!!!!

[travisbrown]

Originally Posted by Jay Kahrs

All those Emmylou & Bela Fleck records that Bill VornDick did were like $12,000 records. Someone like Blues Traveler gets a $30,000 budget & they don't do too badly...

How many more takes and how much beat detectiving and how much auto tuning and how much rearranging mid tracking, and how much less of everything else do you think Fleck, Harris and Blues Traveler sessions involve?

Those three examples are acts that are always at the top of their game.

It's a whole different ballgame when you are working with artists like that. With artists less talented, you spend a whole lot more *trying* to get them to sound as good.

[Raketel]

screw the first poster...if you don't have the abilities to detect false yourself don't blame anyone. It's like bulding a house with friends who have no clue or tools for building but charge standard price for a house and blaiming them if it collapses after the first party you have in it. Engineering is a complex craft (musical thinking, technical skills and analytic skills for loudness and psychoacoustics& acoustics etc.) like building a custom bike(design, mechanics, paint, motor efficency etc.). You need a certain experience and equipment to build something that knocks a good notch out of other competetors in the market. If you don't do your homework about people you work with, you could as well spend your money on beer or drugs. It would be more fun for you and you would be less of a pain in the ass for engineers.

[Sqye]

Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman

"I'd like to have an argument, please..."

yes, absolutely ditto.

.

Originally Posted by blackened

So, bands need to be very weary of all studios and flakey engineers. Most engineers suffer from extreme OCD. I'm saying that seriously. Also, I believe that after all is said and done, musicians should never assume that just because a studio has an SSL or Neve that they will get good results. Why do I say this? Well let's just say i've lived it.

Blackened

You sound like the rap guys I recorded a month ago. All ego, all talk.
Cheers,
Matt

[Mark Kaufman]

Originally Posted by Beyersound

I couldn't have said it better Mark!!!!

No, no, not true at all. I absolutely disagree with you.

[Karloff70]

That parrot is dead. That is a dead parrot!

No it's not.......

[Lori]

Originally Posted by AudioFocus

I think I found a picture of Blackie.

[Beyersound]

Originally Posted by Mark Kaufman

No, no, not true at all. I absolutely disagree with you.

Now that's not an argument!!!

[DigitMus]

Originally Posted by Beyersound

Now that's not an argument!!!

Yes it is!!!