another WAR 2003

5down1up · 6th February 2003, 08:26 AM

i know this site is about gear and music and i basically dont like the idea to start a thread about politics .

but i am doing it anyway !!!

looks like the next war is coming soon on the schedule .

and , i HATE it . another thousands of innocent people will die and suffer on both sides . moms and dads will lose their kids and kids will lose their moms and dads . places will burn . millions of $$$ will be wasted on bullets instead of taking care of those people who could really need it . people are gonna lose their eyes , their arms and legs and at least , their hope and dreams .

the BIG GUYS will never get affected !!!

i dont wanna start a debate about the pros and contras in fact of a war . there are no pros anyway . its a wired thing selling a war under the point of humanity .

**** OFF BUSH & SADDAM

" let our people go "

Nutmeg II. · 6th February 2003, 09:52 AM

I'm with you 200%!

The americans should start building cars that need less gasolin, like most of the other world does! That way oil wouldn't be an issue!

I am afraid of americans!

Jet it's oil tomorow it's the canadian/european water!

Make music not war!

nativeaudio · 6th February 2003, 10:29 AM

Well, it seems that the American way of doing things just lacks intelligence. Not only do they have a president that got his position with half a million votes less than the other main candidate...

They send ten thousands of soldiers and spend billions on weapons... but forget that all their enemy needed on the 11th of September was a handful of pocket knifes. If someone wants to attack USA with chemical or nuclear weapons, they will not do it by sending an aircraft from Iraq or North Korea. They will hire a taxi, and send the bomb into the heart of NYC or Washington for $20.

I'm all against using violence, and do not defend at all any sort of terrorism. But Bush is in a better position most other people to **** up this planet, and he seems to want to push that button. Why do Americans vote on these cowboys for presidents? What a planet we are living on.

alphajerk · 6th February 2003, 01:27 PM

everybody sing!

"WAR guh-gawd uh.... what is it good for?"

6th February 2003, 01:30 PM

Bum-er

Or as they say in France - "Boom-err"

jon · 6th February 2003, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nutmeg II.
The americans should start building cars that need less gasolin, like most of the other world does! That way oil wouldn't be an issue!

I'm not for war.

But if oil were the real issue, it would have made more sense to go into Venezuela, whose oil output affects the US much more.

If the US/UK/etc. go in and take over Iraq, it's probable that most of the Iraqi oil revenues would go to re-building the country. Without OPEC constraints, Iraqi oil output would likely increase, in which case world oil prices would fall.

The GW administration's motives appear to be much more about personal convictions, coupled with geopolitics, than oil economics.

I mention personal convictions because some folks I know have friends that know or work with GW and everything they write about him indicates that deep personal convictions are involved here. They also indicate that it isn't an easy time right now to be in his shoes and that he feels the weight of the world on his shoulders.

OK, flame on.

6th February 2003, 02:04 PM

Latest just in is that we are supposed to "interpret" the body language of the weapons inspectors as they gave a press conference. that they were all smiles with Tony Blair in london a few seconds ago - seems to be all the info we need!

oh good! I suppose thats alright then?

davemc · 6th February 2003, 03:06 PM

Well here in OZ our Prime Minster is just a puppet for Bush. So we are going with the US anywhere anytime

IF the US and want to play policeman of the world, they should do it with the UN backing and more evenly. A peacekeeping team in the middle east(Israel) and Zimbabwe etc. Not just places with oil/money or are not friends of the US. If you want a global peacekeeping force they should do that everywhere it is needed and truely neutral.

Please do not turn this into a holy war, money and power should have nothing to do with religion but more and more it does.

malice · 6th February 2003, 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jon
I'm not for war.

But if oil were the real issue, it would have made more sense to go into Venezuela, whose oil output affects the US much more.

I'm not for a flame, so Jon, don't take it as a flame.
But you would really have to find a better reason to invade venezuela, don't you think.
It is not for oil, directly, BUT : (I'll be very quick & simple)

Terrorism money comes from Saudi Arabia, that include Al Quaida
If you want to stop that, you want to mess with Saudi bankers and governement members that are related to/and finance thoses terrorist groups.
If you do that, you got to be prepare with oil shortage for a lots of reasons.
If things turn bad, you'll need some GREAT oil supplier, and I'm afraid venezuela won't do.It is not only the shortage, but the price that oil could take if Saudi Arabia want to shit in the fan.So what is the country next to Arabia that has massive amount of oil ???? mmh

War is always the worth solution, Hundred of thousands of Iraki people, including childdren were starved to death for the sake of puting Saddam down, may be a million death, for what : nothing, Saddam is still view as a great leader in Irak by a lots of people who are blaming USA and GB for bombing their country every month . Instead of weakening him, we just made a martyr out of him and we killed the innocents.
Can we live with more killings now ???
I can't

malice

mdbeh · 6th February 2003, 03:45 PM

I realize that we're not going to get anywhere with this but...

There are some strong arguments against the war, but "it's just for oil" isn't on them.

If the US wanted Iraq's oil, they could have simply lifted the sanctions. Despite the current regime's anti-US stance, they've indicated many times many times that they're willing to sell oil to America. Not to mention that Iraq's current contribution to the world oil market is about 3%, which is a decent amount, but not enough to affect supply dramatically.

That's all I'm going to say, though. I don't want this to get like that "Assassinations" thread on rec.audio.pro.

malice · 6th February 2003, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mdbeh
I realize that we're not going to get anywhere with this but...

There are some strong arguments against the war, but "it's just for oil" isn't on them.

never said it was the only one

Quote:

If the US wanted Iraq's oil, they could have simply lifted the sanctions. Despite the current regime's anti-US stance, they've indicated many times many times that they're willing to sell oil to America.

Being able to buy is not controling

Quote:

Not to mention that Iraq's current contribution to the world oil market is about 3%, which is a decent amount, but not enough to affect supply dramatically.

I'm talking reserve, potential production : for the moment, Irak production is limited by the sanctions, precisly

Quote:

That's all I'm going to say, though. I don't want this to get like that "Assassinations" thread on rec.audio.pro.

Well, I know this is not the place, and I just wanted to express a feeling regarding what Jon said.Nothing more than discussion to me.
I didn't read this r.a.p thread, but I would find any flaming type of post unappropriate for this particular subject.
I wouldn't have dare starting a thread on this war to come on a Audio related forum. But since someone started it, I don't see why, as we are all adults here, and coming from different country pro or con war in Irak, it won't just opens some discussions that would have enlight me on some "pro war" positions that I still don't understand.

that must be because I'm living in an "old Europe" country

malice

mandiil · 6th February 2003, 04:15 PM

One problem right now is that the economy is standing still, waiting to see what will happend, war or no war, this the US goverment knows, and here is were they kind of has painted themself into a corner.

Now if they go to war and its over pretty fast it will boost the economy, on the other hand if it turns out to be a harder fight then they first expected it will have critical input on the economy.

IF they decides to let the inspectors keep up their work and dont have an immediately war, they gonna want to keep "the finger on the trigger" meaning that they will have to keep most of the military back-up in the region, and that will keep the investors and the market on their toes, not sure if they dear to put their feet down or not.
Or they decides to call the whole thing of, let the inspectors keep up their work and leave the region (not likely, right?). That will probably also do some good to the economy at first, since the tence will ease.
Or they decide to go to war, and what happends then decides by how long the war gonna be, a lot of inpredictable things can happend, the whole thing may spread into a larger region, forcing other countries to get involved etc.

I dont see how they will get out of this one, its truly sad.

/M

malice · 6th February 2003, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by mdbeh
Breaking my pledge here...

Malice, I respect your opinions, and I really like how they are people from all over the world here. I guess I've just seen these arguments turn nasty pretty quickly.

So I'll try to just talk audio. Let's see how I do...

mdbeh, I respect your opinions too, and I must admit that even when exposed with inteligence and knowledge as you just did, even if I still do not agree totaly with you, the risk for that discussion to turn nasty is vivid, even if clearly, the fight would not start from one of us.
I'm glad to be able to exchange opinions like this, and I'm glad we just did, but, I will follow your path about skiping to audio too, you are probably wise about that :)

nice to have had your insight on that matter, thanx

peace in the world

malice

AgonizingpaiN · 6th February 2003, 06:20 PM

War sucks, politics suck, dictators suck, and presidents suck. Can we get back to talking about gear now?

5down1up · 6th February 2003, 06:40 PM

i really didnt want to start a debate about facts WE all know shit about

i dont care about whos wrong or whos right .

i care about those people who have to go there and those people who are living there . if i would be told

" WELL , we put a war on your country on , hmmm , lets say 3 weeks "

i would freak out

. its kinda hard to imagine how this feels for real , but i bet yall can imagine , even if its just a little .
in fact of we are living at places that wont get affected anyway , we can keep on playing the cool guys arguing bout the special facts somebodys telling us on TV grggt

we have the chance now to change some thousands of years old useless rules ... and if its just for our minds .

N O W A R

p.s. sorry guys , but it needs to be said

jon · 6th February 2003, 06:55 PM

Thanks for your insights, malice, mandiil, mdbeh and all. I appreciated reading them. It's great that folks from all over are able to discuss like this.

bassmac · 6th February 2003, 07:52 PM

Wake up people! tut

I think 9/11 is a pretty ****ing good example of what happens when you sit and do nothing to someone...just because they haven't ****ed with you *yet*.

Kick ass now - or pay later.

jon · 6th February 2003, 08:00 PM

I would hope the goal of action is more about reduction of future threat than butt-kicking, personally.

Knox · 6th February 2003, 08:06 PM

Personally, I think war is a ridiculous 'so called' solution. That in 2003 grown men can't come up with a better solution then this is stupid. No one wins in a war. Any dumbass can take a swing at someone. You don't need a brain to ACT tough.

We got a 'Texas yea hoo good ole college frat boy' for a president (in my view) that made up his mind long ago that he was going to go to war with Saddam. He better get his head around homeland security.

I want the bastards that attacked America, the WTC and Pentagon more then I give a shit about Saddam. It's no wonder all these countries hate us, we think we have to get in everyone's business. Unless it is some horrible humanitarian situation, I feel we should mind our own business for the most part.

Those people that came here though . . . THAT'S a different story. If there is REAL proof that Saddam helped them . . . then HE should be vaporized. Bush SWORE he was going to get Bin Laden, Al Queda and all their leaders . . . . well? We're waiting.

They say this war is going to cost us TRILLIONS!! It would be nice if one day a President used that kind of money to take care of the problems right here in America?

jon · 6th February 2003, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Knox
They say this war is going to cost us TRILLIONS!!

Well, here's one way to pay for it...

malice · 6th February 2003, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jon
I would hope the goal of action is more about reduction of future threat than butt-kicking, personally.

on that, we both agree Jon, and appreciate your nice words about this discussion.

Knox: I always valued your comments about audio issue here, and what you just said about the war makes me extend this liking. I so agree with you :)

malice

Knox · 6th February 2003, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by malice
Knox: I always valued your comments about audio issue here, and what you just said about the war makes me extend this liking. I so agree with you :)

malice

Malice, you sniffing glue AGAIN? I told u that crap would mess you up. :)

I came up during Viet Nam. I was next in line 'right before' they abolished the draft. Many of my friends didn't come back or came back messed up. Politicians are capable of some stupid, horrible things.

malice · 6th February 2003, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Knox

Those people that came here though . . . THAT'S a different story. If there is REAL proof that Saddam helped them . . . then HE should be vaporized. Bush SWORE he was going to get Bin Laden, Al Queda and all their leaders . . . . well? We're waiting.

damn, I'm breaking my vow to only talk about audio again

Problem is that it is almost impossible to get the leaders, as they will always find help around them to slip out of our hands.
No war against terrorism can be won without taking care of the source of the problem. Wipping Saddam or Bin Ladden out of the World will bring other leaders . those organisations like Al Quaida are not like a pyramid, more like little independant groups that are not even following orders from the top. So in a way, destroying the head in Afghanistan might have made the task more complicated by destroying the common link with all the little organisations that are related to the name Al Qaida. Irak is most certainly linked to Bin Ladden organisation, but certainly less than some influential people in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan.
As much as I wish that Saddam was vaporised, I still don't think it is the way to do it. US army might take this regime out, but look the results in Afganistan, I'm not sure the people are happier, and Bin Ladden is free and safe.

malice

malice · 6th February 2003, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Knox
Malice, you sniffing glue AGAIN? I told u that crap would mess you up. :)

I came up during Viet Nam. I was next in line 'right before' they abolished the draft. Many of my friends didn't come back or came back messed up. Politicians are capable of some stupid, horrible things.

I don't have your experience in that matter, but your comment here makes me think of one more think.
This Irak war might be slightly more complicated than the two previous ones.

In the Gulf, the land was clear with practicly no hidding possible, perfect for US army technology and power.

In Afghanistan, the infantery was allready there with the North opposition, that knew the field and had experience of fighting the Talibans

Here, there will be no support within the population, there is a Kurd opposition, but they are unarmed, allready destroyed by Saddam just after the gulf War.

mmh, I may be sniffing glue again, but I don't have a very good feeling about this one.

malice

Knox · 6th February 2003, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by malice
mmh, I may be sniffing glue again, but I don't have a very good feeling about this one.

malice

Like George Carlin says . . ."America is great at kicking little brown people's asses"

What I thnk MAY happen is, this will escalate terrorist activity here. It's obvious we can bomb Iraq until they get tired.

Man we sure are a modern, forward thinking country aren't we? Sheesh!
It's not a good thing . . .war.

malice · 6th February 2003, 09:25 PM

Jax · 6th February 2003, 09:50 PM

Add to the equation: North Korea is ready to fight us tooth and nail.

Chew.

Also, be aware that Americans are not wholly behind our government's decisions, especially not on these issues. In my city alone, there have already been two anti-war marches and a third one is coming Feb. 16. Masses of people have been turning out. However, as you head into Middle America, attitudes are radically different than they are in my city. So we are a nation divided.

I don't think that negotiations will help, but war is not the answer, either. Unfortunately, there is no "right" way out of this. Plans have been made and steps too far have already been taken. They will continue in that direction.

The war will not be fought over oil reserves. This is a war based on fears, mostly the US's since Sept. 11.

bassmac · 6th February 2003, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Knox
It's no wonder all these countries hate us, we think we have to get in everyone's business.

If you had a neighbor who stock piled chemical & biological weapons, I'd think you'd want to make that sort of thing your business.

Quote:

Originally posted by Knox
Unless it is some horrible humanitarian situation, I feel we should mind our own business for the most part.

Testing those weapons on his own freakin' people and family members seems pretty damn horrific to me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Knox
I feel we should mind our own business for the most part.

Being ignorant to what's going on around you is what gets people killed. tut

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6th February 2003, 08:26 AM	#1
5down1up Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,373	another WAR 2003 i know this site is about gear and music and i basically dont like the idea to start a thread about politics . but i am doing it anyway !!! looks like the next war is coming soon on the schedule . and , i HATE it . another thousands of innocent people will die and suffer on both sides . moms and dads will lose their kids and kids will lose their moms and dads . places will burn . millions of $$$ will be wasted on bullets instead of taking care of those people who could really need it . people are gonna lose their eyes , their arms and legs and at least , their hope and dreams . the BIG GUYS will never get affected !!! i dont wanna start a debate about the pros and contras in fact of a war . there are no pros anyway . its a wired thing selling a war under the point of humanity . **** OFF BUSH & SADDAM " let our people go " Attached Thumbnails

6th February 2003, 09:52 AM	#2
Nutmeg II. Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: GEARmany Posts: 905	I'm with you 200%! The americans should start building cars that need less gasolin, like most of the other world does! That way oil wouldn't be an issue! I am afraid of americans! Jet it's oil tomorow it's the canadian/european water! Make music not war! __________________ "Any recording engineer who uses a tube U47 is obviously not a professional" Stephan Temmer 1979

6th February 2003, 03:06 PM	#8
davemc Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Melb, Australia Posts: 1,029	Well here in OZ our Prime Minster is just a puppet for Bush. So we are going with the US anywhere anytime IF the US and want to play policeman of the world, they should do it with the UN backing and more evenly. A peacekeeping team in the middle east(Israel) and Zimbabwe etc. Not just places with oil/money or are not friends of the US. If you want a global peacekeeping force they should do that everywhere it is needed and truely neutral. Please do not turn this into a holy war, money and power should have nothing to do with religion but more and more it does. __________________ Bye Ya Dave INDENT

6th February 2003, 08:06 PM	#19
Knox Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 711	Personally, I think war is a ridiculous 'so called' solution. That in 2003 grown men can't come up with a better solution then this is stupid. No one wins in a war. Any dumbass can take a swing at someone. You don't need a brain to ACT tough. We got a 'Texas yea hoo good ole college frat boy' for a president (in my view) that made up his mind long ago that he was going to go to war with Saddam. He better get his head around homeland security. I want the bastards that attacked America, the WTC and Pentagon more then I give a shit about Saddam. It's no wonder all these countries hate us, we think we have to get in everyone's business. Unless it is some horrible humanitarian situation, I feel we should mind our own business for the most part. Those people that came here though . . . THAT'S a different story. If there is REAL proof that Saddam helped them . . . then HE should be vaporized. Bush SWORE he was going to get Bin Laden, Al Queda and all their leaders . . . . well? We're waiting. They say this war is going to cost us TRILLIONS!! It would be nice if one day a President used that kind of money to take care of the problems right here in America? __________________ Knox Arcadia Production and Recording Studio http://www.arcadiarocks.com 770.448.9992 photography site . . http://avatarphotoart.com my book on alleycats . . http://www.urbantailsbook.com

6th February 2003, 10:29 AM	#3
nativeaudio Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 739	Well, it seems that the American way of doing things just lacks intelligence. Not only do they have a president that got his position with half a million votes less than the other main candidate... They send ten thousands of soldiers and spend billions on weapons... but forget that all their enemy needed on the 11th of September was a handful of pocket knifes. If someone wants to attack USA with chemical or nuclear weapons, they will not do it by sending an aircraft from Iraq or North Korea. They will hire a taxi, and send the bomb into the heart of NYC or Washington for $20. I'm all against using violence, and do not defend at all any sort of terrorism. But Bush is in a better position most other people to **** up this planet, and he seems to want to push that button. Why do Americans vote on these cowboys for presidents? What a planet we are living on.

6th February 2003, 01:27 PM	#4
alphajerk There is only one Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: asheville NC Posts: 5,291	everybody sing! "WAR guh-gawd uh.... what is it good for?"

6th February 2003, 01:30 PM	#5
Jules Guest Posts: n/a	Bum-er Or as they say in France - "Boom-err"

6th February 2003, 02:04 PM	#7
Jules Guest Posts: n/a	Latest just in is that we are supposed to "interpret" the body language of the weapons inspectors as they gave a press conference. that they were all smiles with Tony Blair in london a few seconds ago - seems to be all the info we need! oh good! I suppose thats alright then?

6th February 2003, 03:45 PM	#10
mdbeh Gear addict Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Chicago Posts: 433	I realize that we're not going to get anywhere with this but... There are some strong arguments against the war, but "it's just for oil" isn't on them. If the US wanted Iraq's oil, they could have simply lifted the sanctions. Despite the current regime's anti-US stance, they've indicated many times many times that they're willing to sell oil to America. Not to mention that Iraq's current contribution to the world oil market is about 3%, which is a decent amount, but not enough to affect supply dramatically. That's all I'm going to say, though. I don't want this to get like that "Assassinations" thread on rec.audio.pro.

6th February 2003, 04:15 PM	#12
mandiil Gear Head Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 35	One problem right now is that the economy is standing still, waiting to see what will happend, war or no war, this the US goverment knows, and here is were they kind of has painted themself into a corner. Now if they go to war and its over pretty fast it will boost the economy, on the other hand if it turns out to be a harder fight then they first expected it will have critical input on the economy. IF they decides to let the inspectors keep up their work and dont have an immediately war, they gonna want to keep "the finger on the trigger" meaning that they will have to keep most of the military back-up in the region, and that will keep the investors and the market on their toes, not sure if they dear to put their feet down or not. Or they decides to call the whole thing of, let the inspectors keep up their work and leave the region (not likely, right?). That will probably also do some good to the economy at first, since the tence will ease. Or they decide to go to war, and what happends then decides by how long the war gonna be, a lot of inpredictable things can happend, the whole thing may spread into a larger region, forcing other countries to get involved etc. I dont see how they will get out of this one, its truly sad. /M

6th February 2003, 06:20 PM	#14
AgonizingpaiN Gear nut Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 76	War sucks, politics suck, dictators suck, and presidents suck. Can we get back to talking about gear now?

6th February 2003, 06:40 PM	#15
5down1up Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 1,373	i really didnt want to start a debate about facts WE all know shit about i dont care about whos wrong or whos right . i care about those people who have to go there and those people who are living there . if i would be told " WELL , we put a war on your country on , hmmm , lets say 3 weeks " i would freak out . its kinda hard to imagine how this feels for real , but i bet yall can imagine , even if its just a little . in fact of we are living at places that wont get affected anyway , we can keep on playing the cool guys arguing bout the special facts somebodys telling us on TV grggt we have the chance now to change some thousands of years old useless rules ... and if its just for our minds . N O W A R p.s. sorry guys , but it needs to be said

6th February 2003, 06:55 PM	#16
jon Capitol Studios Paris Join Date: May 2002 Location: Paris, France Posts: 1,315	Thanks for your insights, malice, mandiil, mdbeh and all. I appreciated reading them. It's great that folks from all over are able to discuss like this.

6th February 2003, 07:52 PM	#17
bassmac Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 685	Wake up people! tut I think 9/11 is a pretty **ing good example of what happens when you sit and do nothing to someone...just because they haven't *ed with you yet*. Kick ass now - or pay later.

6th February 2003, 08:00 PM	#18
jon Capitol Studios Paris Join Date: May 2002 Location: Paris, France Posts: 1,315	I would hope the goal of action is more about reduction of future threat than butt-kicking, personally.

6th February 2003, 09:25 PM	#26
malice Lives for gear Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: France Posts: 876	word __________________ thewombforums.com

6th February 2003, 09:50 PM	#27
Jax Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Rafael, CA Posts: 3,668	Add to the equation: North Korea is ready to fight us tooth and nail. Chew. Also, be aware that Americans are not wholly behind our government's decisions, especially not on these issues. In my city alone, there have already been two anti-war marches and a third one is coming Feb. 16. Masses of people have been turning out. However, as you head into Middle America, attitudes are radically different than they are in my city. So we are a nation divided. I don't think that negotiations will help, but war is not the answer, either. Unfortunately, there is no "right" way out of this. Plans have been made and steps too far have already been taken. They will continue in that direction. The war will not be fought over oil reserves. This is a war based on fears, mostly the US's since Sept. 11. __________________ When the music is good, the mix is that much better.