Has Hip Hop music become too sterile??

[Marol]

Sorry for posting this in the wrong section.....

What up Gearheads and equipments gurus, name is Marol and I love Hip Hop. For many of the Hip Hop heads it is a passion that we share with the world through music. I, for one, am a firm believer in the experimentation and artistic shaping that was once the foundation of the culture and its music. Now it seems that the corporate mindset has overshadowed it and has become very sterile. Everything involved in it commerically has been so refined, so commoditized to fit the stereotypes that society has deemed "hip hop", that its original function as a positive outlet for poor inner-city youths has been forgotten. Now the ganglife that many ran from in the past is one of the alluring element of today's "hip hop". Many of you may wonder why this is in a "engineering/production" forum and dismiss this post as some random person venting about their dislike of today's hip hop scene. But to me, it isnt only about the music and how its made, its about the pyschological effect it has on its culture and what our responsiblity as human beings is to its maintainence.

Please discuss...

[Marol]

what do I smell or something??

[gearaddict]

I agree with you. I think hip hop needs to get some new gear...it all sounds the same..and I really thought that sampling someone elses music would hvae died out by now! It is always so cool to see someone like jay z on stage with a real band playing real instruments! It has a sound that you can only get that way..Most of the rap comeing out today all have the same drum samples and sound like my kid did it drawing squiggley lines across fruity loops! I think that if all the talented hip hop artists had to learn how to create their own sounds and music..with real instruments..hip hop would grow bigger than it is now..I mean wouldnt it be cool when a song came on the radio, you knew who it was as soon as the music started..insted of haveing to wait and here the voice to know who it is, because all the music sounds the same!! Same thing with most pop song today..but at least they know how to play a chord..that may be all they know but it's better than nothing!

A hip hop artist I used to record and fix up his fl beats for used to come with a few beats he did and I would listen to them and say...ummm you know that synth line is hitting bad notes as it goes on...he says...it sounds good to me..i dont know what out of tune sounds like..I just draw it in untill it sounds good.....and theres your problem!!!

[Marol]

Originally Posted by gearaddict

I agree with you. I think hip hop needs to get some new gear...it all sounds the same..and I really thought that sampling someone elses music would hvae died out by now! It is always so cool to see someone like jay z on stage with a real band playing real instruments! It has a sound that you can only get that way..Most of the rap comeing out today all have the same drum samples and sound like my kid did it drawing squiggley lines across fruity loops! I think that if all the talented hip hop artists had to learn how to create their own sounds and music..with real instruments..hip hop would grow bigger than it is now..I mean wouldnt it be cool when a song came on the radio, you knew who it was as soon as the music started..insted of haveing to wait and here the voice to know who it is, because all the music sounds the same!! Same thing with most pop song today..but at least they know how to play a chord..that may be all they know but it's better than nothing!

A hip hop artist I used to record and fix up his fl beats for used to come with a few beats he did and I would listen to them and say...ummm you know that synth line is hitting bad notes as it goes on...he says...it sounds good to me..i dont know what out of tune sounds like..I just draw it in untill it sounds good.....and theres your problem!!!

I agree with you on the fact that most "hip hop" today is lacking alot of musicality. But dont forget that this music was founded my kids in the ghetto without instruments of their own. That is why sampling done by an artist is more musical than some jackass drawing in notes on a midi grid. I dont know if having a backing band will help keep "hip hop" alive but it might bring in interest from festivals that dont host those acts typically. I doubt that live bands will relive creativity in "hip hop" since The Roots have been doing that for years now and still havent broken into the mainstream yet. So if the Nelly had a backing band on all of the his tracks, do you think it would boost sales, yet alone creativity? The answer is no, but you are at least going in the right direction. I think the whole attitude that "hip hop" is easy is a false one, and that adding more complexity to it would make it more "musical" is BS. Remember, when Jazz became more complex, folks started to more away from it to listen to crooners and nolvety songs. So I think that making "hip hop" more complex wouldnt help it much musically, hell, it might even hurt it.


Keep the discussion going...

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by Marol

Remember, when Jazz became more complex, folks started to more away from it to listen to crooners and nolvety songs.

I listen to complex jazz...

Commercial success has little to do with good vs bad. In fact, I'd like to point out that hip hop is alive and well with some of the most creative cats on the block out and about right now. They use live bands, they use DJs, they use whatever grabs them by the soul. Just because you don't hear it on the radio doesn't mean it's not good and it certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't pay close attention to it.

Even Jay Z was underground at one point...

And for the record, those Crooner/Novelty songs don't have nearly the ability to stand the test of time. Corcovado or I Left My Heart in San Fracisco, only one of them is in the Real Book...

Some of the most important jazz of all time was written in the period that you're talking about. Quit measuring music based on commercial success and start realizing that this is ART.

[Marol]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I listen to complex jazz...

Commercial success has little to do with good vs bad. In fact, I'd like to point out that hip hop is alive and well with some of the most creative cats on the block out and about right now. They use live bands, they use DJs, they use whatever grabs them by the soul. Just because you don't hear it on the radio doesn't mean it's not good and it certainly doesn't mean you shouldn't pay close attention to it.

Even Jay Z was underground at one point...

And for the record, those Crooner/Novelty songs don't have nearly the ability to stand the test of time. Corcovado or I Left My Heart in San Fracisco, only one of them is in the Real Book...

Some of the most important jazz of all time was written in the period that you're talking about. Quit measuring music based on commercial success and start realizing that this is ART.

Measuring music in the music biz with commercial success is a damn good barometer of what is going on in society. Ignoring that simple fact is big contributor to the art being dead to the eyes of the public. To me, that matters more than just some artsy-fartsiness and sleaveless sweaters. Think about it, Common wasnt for the longest time POPULAR at all in the music biz. Meaning that less people got to hear his message and his music. But as soon as BE came out, with the right marketing and the right songs, that message of self-respect and loving one another was heard on a larger scale. So, commercial success to me is good measure what the public wants to hear. Same can be said about Lupe Fiasco's releases, he did reasonably well sales wise. So what is this telling me about the "hip hop" niche? That even thought the "artsy" style is still playing second findle to the T.I.s, Jeezys, and Soulja Bois of the scene, it does have it place and people do want to hear. As far as the music goes, the thing that saddens me most the lack of variety in all mediums. Remember because that "brilliant" and "important" work done that bebop era, that much of the interest by the public was lost due to its lack of assisibility.

[donsolo]

Sorry dude,

I just hope that you're going through some sort of phase.

It's just such a terrible mindset to think that fame = good.

I wish I could rant, but I just can't. It's just so disconcerning to hear you put it that way.

There's music and then there's music business. Hopefully you'll come back to some sense of altruistic purpose.

[MrHope]

I agree with you (the original poster) very much.

It's the corporate mass market machine that has beefed up the destructive side of hip hop and has not nurtured the progressive side of hip hop. And then all these naive folks that jump on the bandwagon, living up to the stereotypes and ghetto nonsense got/get involved.

There is good progressive hip hop out there, but you have to hunt for it, whether it's hiding in underground rap, or grime or trip hop (take Massive Attack's raps for example), or downtempo, or 1990s oldies classics.

And then you've got some artists like KRS-ONE and Public Enemy who never stopped making progressive hip hop. Those two have often rapped about fighting the stereotypes and commercialization and materialism of hip hop. And dont forget about positive rappers such as Eyedea and Michael Franti of Spearhead.

I suggest we take this thread as an opportunity to share the names of good progressive non-destructive hip hop artists and groups. Or at least groups that feature some decent rapping that isn't all degenerative violence and sexism and posing and cursing and materialism and machismo bullsh*t.

[Marol]

Originally Posted by donsolo

Sorry dude,

I just hope that you're going through some sort of phase.

It's just such a terrible mindset to think that fame = good.

I wish I could rant, but I just can't. It's just so disconcerning to hear you put it that way.

There's music and then there's music business. Hopefully you'll come back to some sense of altruistic purpose.

no, I think you may be confused on what I was trying to say. The main reason for posting this thread to see what people's views were on the music business and it affect on the the original concepts of hip hop culture. I simply stated that it (the "it" being the music BUSINESS and it's product, music) was getting a bit too refined and boring. I am talking about the music too, this is seperate from the FAME that that said music may bring. I dont have a terrible mindset, and when in the business of music, you have to realize that today's music biz is BORING. Not only artistically, but promotion and marketing is now a cookie cutter operation. I dont where in my statements did I say anything that wasnt trying to help people. What Jazz musicans were doing to the music and themselves during the Bebop age wasnt exactly "for the people". Sure, a few may have related to Miles Davis' tough guy image, but most were put off by the self-centered bebop musicians. So, why is it that everytime someone MUSIC and BUSINESS together someone gets all artsy-fartsy.


The core of hip hop is expressing ones' emotional state, like all other forms of art. But when your intend is to sell it, you cannot forget about who you are expressing that state to. Why is MY mindset terrible?? An artist that cannot express theirselves in a manner that others get is a bit selfish, dont you think??



Back to the original idea of my post:


it isnt only about the music and how its made, its about the pyschological effect it has on its culture and what our responsiblity as human beings is to its maintainence.

Please discuss...


Creativity and business CAN and SHOULD go hand and hand. So, why the terrible mindset, brother??

[Marol]

Originally Posted by MrHope

I agree with you (the original poster) very much.

It's the corporate mass market machine that has beefed up the destructive side of hip hop and has not nurtured the progressive side of hip hop. And then all these naive folks that jump on the bandwagon, living up to the stereotypes and ghetto nonsense got/get involved.

There is good progressive hip hop out there, but you have to hunt for it, whether it's hiding in underground rap, or grime or trip hop (take Massive Attack's raps for example), or downtempo, or 1990s oldies classics.

And then you've got some artists like KRS-ONE and Public Enemy who never stopped making progressive hip hop. Those two have often rapped about fighting the stereotypes and commercialization and materialism of hip hop. And dont forget about positive rappers such as Eyedea and Michael Franti of Spearhead.

I suggest we take this thread as an opportunity to share the names of good progressive non-destructive hip hop artists and groups. Or at least groups that feature some decent rapping that isn't all degenerative violence and sexism and posing and cursing and materialism and machismo bullsh*t.

I agree that there are positive hip hoppers, but I think their message doesnt reach all of those that should hear it. That is why I mentioned Common and Lupe Fiasco, because that have a bigger audience.


More ears = more knowledge being spread

[Zionpro]

I agree that there is progressive HIP HOP...it is not in the mainstream...so I get a bit dismayed when people make the blanket statement that HIP HIP is crap, too sterile, etc.

Mainstream HIP HOP is too sterile, unimaginative, etc; not the whole of the culture...

[Marol]

Originally Posted by Zionpro

I agree that there is progressive HIP HOP...it is not in the mainstream...so I get a bit dismayed when people make the blanket statement that HIP HIP is crap, too sterile, etc.

Mainstream HIP HOP is too sterile, unimaginative, etc; not the whole of the culture...

even PROGESSIVE Hip Hop music for the most part is boring. This is coming from a fan of the subgenre. Most songs that come from that subgenre is just whining and bitching about how the "REAL" Hip Hop isnt being heard, but when fans run to see one of their shows, it just conplaining and crying. Murs on the other hand, does his thing, expressing himself to the fullest. He does the "this is REAL hip hop" song once and a blue moon, but most of his stuff is simple issues that he deals with, which I relate too. But yeah, even PROGESSIVE is bland most times...

[gearaddict]

Originally Posted by Marol

I agree with you on the fact that most "hip hop" today is lacking alot of musicality. But dont forget that this music was founded my kids in the ghetto without instruments of their own. That is why sampling done by an artist is more musical than some jackass drawing in notes on a midi grid. I dont know if having a backing band will help keep "hip hop" alive but it might bring in interest from festivals that dont host those acts typically. I doubt that live bands will relive creativity in "hip hop" since The Roots have been doing that for years now and still havent broken into the mainstream yet. So if the Nelly had a backing band on all of the his tracks, do you think it would boost sales, yet alone creativity? The answer is no, but you are at least going in the right direction. I think the whole attitude that "hip hop" is easy is a false one, and that adding more complexity to it would make it more "musical" is BS. Remember, when Jazz became more complex, folks started to more away from it to listen to crooners and nolvety songs. So I think that making "hip hop" more complex wouldnt help it much musically, hell, it might even hurt it.


Keep the discussion going...

You are right!!! When I started doing rap in 81 thats all I did was sample old records..I would play some instruments over the top of it, but I was just learning hoe to play. If it wasnt for hip hop I probablt would have never wanted to learn to play any inst. But as time went by..I learned to play more inst. and got better at it. Now most of the hip hop artists that I deal with now, come to my studio for a certian sound..a little more original sound. they come with the beats they made on FL or Acid and want me to replace all the inst. with real ones and, play it my way (if you know wht I mean), so in the end they leave with something of their own..not a clone. But I know thats not what every one wants..A lot of people want to sound like So and So..and thats where it gets boring..I dont think its the artist fault, I think its the fast money corperations fault.."just copy whats hitting on the radio..thats what everyone likes"...And its only when someone takes a chance on something new,that the SAME OLD SH*T cycle ends....But it dont take long for everyone else to jump on the band wagon and, were back to the same old spot!!

I think that, if artist did not need anyone to back them..be it hip hop or pop..and no one telling them what to do...music would be so much more original!!

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by Marol

So, why is it that everytime someone MUSIC and BUSINESS together someone gets all artsy-fartsy.

Because Chuck D told me (and he's right) "Just ****in make it, if it's good, people will buy it."

The problem is everyone is running around pandering to some imaginary "audience." You never know who's going to dig your style. I play avant-garde free jazz and I get old ladies, young kids, jazzers, rockers, hip hoppers, all across the board as fans. If it's good, people dig it man. It's not about getting all artsy-fartsy. It's about staying true to your artistic statement.

If you're making music intended to sell to people, you're just adding fuel to the fire. The reason it's all dull and boring and cookie cutter is because that crap sells. It just does. People like what they know, they don't know what they like.

But I maintain that if you're making music for the purposes of commercial success, you've already sold yourself out as an artist and you may as well go join the Debbie Gibsons, the Tiffany's, etc.

Just go make some good tunes with a message. That's been my whole point. Who the F*ck cares about money when it's good and with a message? Noone.

I tell my people, "This is not going to be a lucrative endeavor but it'll be one of the most artistically fulfilling projects you've ever worked on." They come back for more. I can't seem to get rid of them!

This is coming from someone who does jingles, radio-ready production etc.

There is no musical symbol for the dollar sign.

[Marol]

Originally Posted by donsolo

Because Chuck D told me (and he's right) "Just ****in make it, if it's good, people will buy it."

The problem is everyone is running around pandering to some imaginary "audience." You never know who's going to dig your style. I play avant-garde free jazz and I get old ladies, young kids, jazzers, rockers, hip hoppers, all across the board as fans. If it's good, people dig it man. It's not about getting all artsy-fartsy. It's about staying true to your artistic statement.

If you're making music intended to sell to people, you're just adding fuel to the fire. The reason it's all dull and boring and cookie cutter is because that crap sells. It just does. People like what they know, they don't know what they like.

But I maintain that if you're making music for the purposes of commercial success, you've already sold yourself out as an artist and you may as well go join the Debbie Gibsons, the Tiffany's, etc.

Just go make some good tunes with a message. That's been my whole point. Who the F*ck cares about money when it's good and with a message? Noone.

I tell my people, "This is not going to be a lucrative endeavor but it'll be one of the most artistically fulfilling projects you've ever worked on." They come back for more. I can't seem to get rid of them!

This is coming from someone who does jingles, radio-ready production etc.

There is no musical symbol for the dollar sign.

I respect Chuck D and everything he stands for but I disagree with that notion. When you are in the MUSIC business your intent on for what you need to do get heard is pretty damn important. The whole idea that just simply making music will some how equal to an audience is a false one. Chuck D dislikes the record business and I think understand why; he doesnt want people telling him what to do with his music. But what isnt being said is how he and Public Enemy got their music (and its message) to a larger audience. You want to know how, the record label. Yes, he is responsible for the creative end but telling artist to ONLY worry about the music is bad advice. This is coming from a guy that has his name out there and is established. I would love to hear that from an artist who isnt established and say it with a straight face.

And these audiences arent "imaginary" as you put it, they are just groups of people that like and dislike certain things. Your aim as an artist is to try to "touch" one of these listeners so that they will become a fan, and in return pay said artist. These people that listen to your music are real, not just mere on-lookers but supporters of the vision that you (the artist) want to share. That is basically how it has worked for quite some time now and I like it like that. But where that simple concept becomes a burden is when "suits" start telling artists whats good and whats bad. The confinement of record labels is what I think Chuck D is getting at, it doesnt want to artists to "play to tune of someone else" but be in turn of what people want to hear, which is music. Saying that people dont know what they want isnt completely true. Most are uncertain on what EXACTLY they are looking for in music but they know it when they hear it. Usually, it is a catchy melody, driving drums, variety in sonics, and verses that tie it all together.

So I guess we can agree to disagree on money and music. I feel it is important in music and how it is shared with people, you dont agree with that notion.


All good in my book, brotha....


PEACE

[Quint]

Originally Posted by Marol

Sorry for posting this in the wrong section.....

What up Gearheads and equipments gurus, name is Marol and I love Hip Hop. For many of the Hip Hop heads it is a passion that we share with the world through music. I, for one, am a firm believer in the experimentation and artistic shaping that was once the foundation of the culture and its music. Now it seems that the corporate mindset has overshadowed it and has become very sterile. Everything involved in it commerically has been so refined, so commoditized to fit the stereotypes that society has deemed "hip hop", that its original function as a positive outlet for poor inner-city youths has been forgotten. Now the ganglife that many ran from in the past is one of the alluring element of today's "hip hop". Many of you may wonder why this is in a "engineering/production" forum and dismiss this post as some random person venting about their dislike of today's hip hop scene. But to me, it isnt only about the music and how its made, its about the pyschological effect it has on its culture and what our responsiblity as human beings is to its maintainence.

Please discuss...

Has hip hop music become too sterile?

In one word: YES.

....and has been for quite some time now. My grandma's dull knives have more edge than most modern, commercial/popular rap/hip hop. As with any of the other genres, the real music with a soul/edge is found in the underground. I'll take guys like Saul Williams over Soulja Boy any day of the week.

[Quint]

Originally Posted by donsolo

Because Chuck D told me (and he's right) "Just ****in make it, if it's good, people will buy it."

The problem is everyone is running around pandering to some imaginary "audience." You never know who's going to dig your style. I play avant-garde free jazz and I get old ladies, young kids, jazzers, rockers, hip hoppers, all across the board as fans. If it's good, people dig it man. It's not about getting all artsy-fartsy. It's about staying true to your artistic statement.

If you're making music intended to sell to people, you're just adding fuel to the fire. The reason it's all dull and boring and cookie cutter is because that crap sells. It just does. People like what they know, they don't know what they like.

But I maintain that if you're making music for the purposes of commercial success, you've already sold yourself out as an artist and you may as well go join the Debbie Gibsons, the Tiffany's, etc.

Just go make some good tunes with a message. That's been my whole point. Who the F*ck cares about money when it's good and with a message? Noone.

I tell my people, "This is not going to be a lucrative endeavor but it'll be one of the most artistically fulfilling projects you've ever worked on." They come back for more. I can't seem to get rid of them!

This is coming from someone who does jingles, radio-ready production etc.

There is no musical symbol for the dollar sign.

Exactly.

Unfortunately, the hip hop community is as obsessed with money as any genre out there.

[Marol]

Originally Posted by Quint

Exactly.

Unfortunately, the hip hop community is as obsessed with money as any genre out there.

Yes, it has but what is different about this era of "hip hop" is the "hip hop mogul" idea. True that this is a business and money is important (like I stated before) but there is a thin line between "entrepreneur" and "*****". Finding that balance of artist and business person is difficult feat. Many of today's artist fall victim to their own success (and egos) and think that nothing that they do can be wrong. This is what separates the "men" from the "boys" figuratively speaking.

[donsolo]

Originally Posted by Marol

So I guess we can agree to disagree on money and music. I feel it is important in music and how it is shared with people, you dont agree with that notion.

I'm happy to let this go as well. I just wanted to present an alternative notion:

Make the music you make and share it with as many people as will listen to it. Don't try to fit some mold you think needs to be fit long before you set out. Look at matisyahu.

Really, if it's good and you spread it out there like it's noone's business, you'll do well. That's where the labels USED to be important, advertising.

The label is supposed to take care of the business end of music. That's why you have managers, A&R people, advances, marketing and distribution channels. This responcibility has increasingly fallen upon you.

That means that you as an artist have to pay attention to these things and have to make sure that they get handled. But you should still make the music that you hear in your heart.

I think we broke down somewhere in our points. I'm not saying that an artist should only concentrate on the music. I'm saying that you shouldn't change your music for some audience before you have one. Then, it's no longer your artistic statement (which leads to the whole sterilization of pop music in general).

I've been around the block, played my fair share of sessions, I have a label, I have production clientel, I'm not some kid on mommy and daddy's couch hoping to make it by playing in some crappy indie rock band. I'm out there in the trenches with you. I'm just not changing my music to suit a perceived audience.

And my fans are some of the most rabbid fans in the world. It's not hard to get them out to the shows, it's not hard to get them to buy the albums. The purity of intent truly comes across in the music.

And without that, it's just trite.

[Marol]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I'm happy to let this go as well. I just wanted to present an alternative notion:

Make the music you make and share it with as many people as will listen to it. Don't try to fit some mold you think needs to be fit long before you set out. Look at matisyahu.

Really, if it's good and you spread it out there like it's noone's business, you'll do well. That's where the labels USED to be important, advertising.

The label is supposed to take care of the business end of music. That's why you have managers, A&R people, advances, marketing and distribution channels. This responcibility has increasingly fallen upon you.

That means that you as an artist have to pay attention to these things and have to make sure that they get handled. But you should still make the music that you hear in your heart.

I think we broke down somewhere in our points. I'm not saying that an artist should only concentrate on the music. I'm saying that you shouldn't change your music for some audience before you have one. Then, it's no longer your artistic statement (which leads to the whole sterilization of pop music in general).

I've been around the block, played my fair share of sessions, I have a label, I have production clientel, I'm not some kid on mommy and daddy's couch hoping to make it by playing in some crappy indie rock band. I'm out there in the trenches with you. I'm just not changing my music to suit a perceived audience.

And my fans are some of the most rabbid fans in the world. It's not hard to get them out to the shows, it's not hard to get them to buy the albums. The purity of intent truly comes across in the music.

And without that, it's just trite.

Good to be at least on the same page, I did lose track of my original point (sterile hip hop and why it has happened). I get you, and thanks for contributing the the discussion.


PEACE

[donsolo]

I think we actually stayed on point pretty well.

The sterile hip hop are the cats that are in it to make a buck.

[Marol]

Originally Posted by donsolo

I think we actually stayed on point pretty well.

The sterile hip hop are the cats that are in it to make a buck.

Correction: The sterile hip hop are the cats that are in it to ONLY make a buck.

I dont want to starve.....

[blackfish]

what is this hip hop to you guys?
sterile?
progressive?
lame?

MySpace.com - SHAMBHALA ::THE PROOF IS IN THE MUSIC:: - DC/NYC, US - Hip Hop / Alternative / Lyrical - www.myspace.com/shambhala

just curious.

and i saw common with J5 on the BE tour. he pretty much dry f**cked some little girl on stage for an entire song. was pretty much rad. but i enjoyed J5 much more.

[Marol]

Originally Posted by blackfish

what is this hip hop to you guys?
sterile?
progressive?
lame?

MySpace.com - SHAMBHALA ::THE PROOF IS IN THE MUSIC:: - DC/NYC, US - Hip Hop / Alternative / Lyrical - www.myspace.com/shambhala

just curious.

and i saw common with J5 on the BE tour. he pretty much dry f**cked some little girl on stage for an entire song. was pretty much rad. but i enjoyed J5 much more.

I say sterile as far as what is being done creatively (beats/lyrics sound the same, clothing hasnt been cool is years, and even the beefs/feuds are sterile. I dont wanna see folks getting shot or nothing, just the fact that there isnt much to get excided about anymore. Not just "hip hop" but the whole music scene. Maybe I am being too harsh, I did hear this cool band named Bear Lake (not HH, but still cool). THey had me going for a minute.

[LeMauce]

If you think hiphop is to sterile and all the same... then i can really only say to get youre ass out of the chair and check out Pete Philly & Perquisite live. Already the 2 cd's are frickin amazing produced by them self and its hiphop/jazz/funk/rock/electronic blend that i didnt here in years. And omg, live men... really it just rocks/bounch what ever you want to name it. One of my favo. in the last couple of years.