Music reading: an engineering skill?

[Gerax]

I often work with some classical labels and lately the producer of one (a top player in Itlay and Europe as well) has started bugging me about music reading skills, so that during recording sessions I could decide the takes and conduct the musicians in the editing takes. Now, I know that would be a plus, but for all of the other classical recordings I've done (some with a few well renowned musicians the world over) there was a producer or director in charge of doing that part of the work, and I only had to concentrate on the recording duties (which in some cases isn't an easy task itself with some high speed/high pressure sessions with 30+ musicians).
Also, the method this producer favors for recording is of really high density edit-wise, so we record lots of material and then later edit and assemble in Pro Tools the final piece (a wrong approach in my opinion), and in this phase he keeps talking me about "how you could do it by yourself if you had music reading skills"...

I don't think this is really a mandatory skill for an engineer, again, I think it could be a plus, but getting up to speed at reading some of the notation music I often get to record would take me several months of constant study, and that would subtract from my concentration during recording (which is a NO NO).
Maybe he is trying to cover up the fact that he cannot always arrange for a director to attend the recording sessions, or that he cannot always attend the sessions...
I just think it isn't a responsability belonging to the recording engineer...if we look at it this way I should be also able to tune pianos ...or I could say to him: why don't you learn some Pro Tools and edit the sessions yourself?

Your opinion on this?

Thanx

L.G.

[thethrillfactor]

Originally posted by Gerax
Your opinion on this?

Thanx

L.G.

It never hurts.

Actually it help me get my foot in the door back int he 80's at Unique Studios.

Anything extra you can add to a session that helps you get or keep work is worth it in the end isn't it?

Heck i've gotten gigs because i can speak multiple languages,can sight read and arrange parts,sing and arrange vocal sessions,can play keys and do it all with style at the same time.

Again it never hurts, just helps.

[doorknocker]

Well, classical music IS about reading so I guess it's extremely important for the engineer to know what's going on. I couldn't imagine someone doing edits in a classical piece without being able to read. As far as I know, all the engineers of the most famous clasical label , the 'Deutsche Grammophon', are studied musicians.
You still might get great results because of your 'natural' hearing abilities but with classical music, it's not just about sounding good, but also about doing the right thing. For example, a voice in a violin section might get lost, it might still sound o.k if you don't know what's written on the page and the conductor (being out 'on the floor' in front of the players) might hear it differently.
O.k, there will be a producer, but do you really want to ride 'blind' and be totally dependent on him?
YMMV

Andi

www.doorknocker.ch

[Gerax]

Thanx for the replys.

I see your points, but it just doesn't sound like "a must have" to me: I have several extarcurricular skills that I can offer (I'm a guitar player, quite good dare I say , I can arrange parts or even play parts on records, which I did several times, I'm MIDI savvy, I can tune drums) but I guess that even though everything that you can have as a plus just makes you a better engineer in the end, you cannot "do it all", I mean, I don't think an engineer is a "one man band" at all and I belive that the best work comes out of a team effort where everybody does what he does best.
Yes, being able to speak a musician's written language is a definitive advantage, and if I'm faced with a sheet music I can briefly follow along and know where I'm (sort of), but in my five years as an independent that doesn't exclusively work with classical music this "lack" of sight reading didn't prevent me from doing some good sounding records, which I think is the final goal isn't it? As I said before I should otherwise be able to deal with all of the aspects of a classical recording's session, like tune pianos, being able to address luthiers issues with strings etc...it just looks like roles overlap a bit too much...what's a producer for then?
Judging from the general vibe it sounds like I should invest in some music reading books...I just hated it when I studied guitar 15 years ago, now it comes back again (...sometimes they come back ).

Thanx for the moment

L.G.

[Jules]

My classical engineer friend can 'follow' a score.

But I doubt he can sight read enough to play an instrument

A basic understanding of the various sections is critical for his classical engineering work.

He needs to know WHICH section has a mistake and where it needs to be re-done from.

I don't think this is the answer you wanted to hear.

He makes a living recording, orchestral, strings for pop & military bands.

It's a "must have" for him.

The composers / conductors he works with require it.

[Renie]

Originally posted by thethrillfactor


Heck i've gotten gigs because i can speak multiple languages,can sight read and arrange parts,sing and arrange vocal sessions,can play keys and do it all with style at the same time.

Can you fit your head in the vocal booth though thrill?

[7rojo7]

In my experience it has helped even with other types of music where charts (spartiti) are involved. It helps with choosing pickup ins and outs or if you can do punches it can help with precise placement of ins and outs. In the end even with assembling the edits and mixing it makes everything faster.
With very rhythmic material I tend to count, which really doesn't count as reading. I'm a horrible sight reader on the instruments I play. Being able to play an instrument by sight reading may not be neccesary but "sight singing" or solfeggio, as you may know it, is very important, its the language which musicians "speak", and of course you'll be much closer to sight reading an instrument. The basics you probably already know, there are do it yourself courses if you don't have the schedule to enroll somewhere.
google
The more you can help a producer the better, if he works more, you'll work more. You don't have to be the best at it, just competent enough to keep up.

[Gerax]

7rojo7

Maybe that's a good "in between" solution, I'm not a (professional) musician, even though I can play an instrument, so I think I will never have the time and dedication to learn sight reading as a pro musician does; as the old saying goes, "the more the better"; I see you all suggest getting a bit more involved with it, and maybe that's what I'll do in my next vacation days ( ), it just wasn't at the top of my priorities like finishing my iso booth or wiring another section of the studio, or trying to get better mixes than ever (that's my main priority ). Anyway, it just seems that you actually never finish "studying", like when I had to take math classes ...I just hope that I can bill my client for it then

Thanx for your replys

L.G.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by Gerax
I often work with some classical labels and lately the producer of one (a top player in Itlay and Europe as well) has started bugging me about music reading skills, so that during recording sessions I could decide the takes and conduct the musicians in the editing takes. ...

Sounds like this person is trying to get you to take over a significant part of the production responsibilities. Reading is a very useful skill but deciding takes crosses the line into production. My experience has been that this is best done by somebody who is concentrating on the performance and on the pace of the session rather than on the balance. Hopefully the appropriate additional compensation is also part of this added responsibility.

[Gerax]

Bob

Words of wisdom, as always

You just nailed what I was thinking about that: I can develop my music reading skills if that is a plus, so that I can give my opinion if I'm asked and know what I'm talking about, but being called up to take some critical decisions like what has to be recorded again for edit material is a responsability that I really don't want to be in charge of, if you know what I mean, maybe when down the line I'll want to produce I'll think about it.
For the moment I just enjoy and really want to concentrate on recording the performance and what is technically involved with it in the best way I can, leaving performance issues to the right person.

You exactly got what I was trying to explain.

L.G.

[Dave Martin]

I think the ability to follow a chart is an essential part of being a competent engineer. Since it's all about being able to communicate with the others involved on a session, if you know how to read a chart (or a score, for those involved with classical music), you can be working from the same road map as the producer and the talent.

I'd go a bit farther, in fact - in the pop/rock/country fields, I think an engineer should be able to WRITE a chart as well as read them - at least enough of a chart so that when the guitar player says, "I need the third measure of the second verse". you have a clue as to where in the song he's talking about.

[Jules]

"being called up to take some critical decisions like what has to be recorded again for edit material is a responsibility that I really don't want to be in charge of"

This is an accurate description of classical engineer & producer / composer "team-work"

Here's what I saw on a pop string quartet overdub session (I had recorded the tracks & my classical chum oversaw the engineering of the strings in a larger studio) Once the mic's were set up (the first half hour) the rest of the day was spent taking and re-taking sections until they were satisfactory to the arranger AND the engineer. At high speed they discussed between them if sections were

in tune
in time
performed well

The arranger was out with the quartet (who were stacking overdubs to simulate a larger string section) and he trusted the engineers control room perspective of each take.

Like this

Section H
Arranger - "I thought that was ok, how did it sound in there (control room)"
Engineer "Viola sounded flat" - lets do it again

Etc etc....

The Pro tools rig used to record them was operated by a second engineer, the first engineer spent all his time

Listening
Looking at the score
Communicating with the arranger / conductor
Instructing the 2nd engineer what to record & when

[Gerax]

I agree with everything you say, but I wouldn't call this engineering, I'd call this producing, you wrote the magic word: teamwork.
I have ear and music experience enough to judge if a take was sounding good or not, if a part was flat, sharp, in time or not, but if we are talking about two bars or three bars that are planned as an overdub and the arranger asks "I think it was OK, how did it sound in there" would the engineer be able to answer "viola sounded flat 'till the third dotted quarter of bar 3 then on the third sextuplet it was sharp...and so on, or he just gave an overall comment on the take? That's a thing I can do without reading music, although I agree that being able to read the same roadmap makes communication easier; that example just brings me where I was headed before: I can give feedback if I hear that a part or an instrument is doing something wrong, I do this all the time during sessions, but this is just simple and natural, no need to read music to tell a flat viola or cello part; that said, the engineer wasn't THE ONE taking decisons, the arranger (one that truly knew the parts inside out) was there, the engineer was consulted and asked about that, but wasn't the only responsible for that: I've ben left alone with the musicians more than once and I really had to focus to get everything together, that meant recording, making sure evrything went on drive the right and good sounding way, and at the same time focusing on performance: I don't have a second engineer ; BTW chord charts are different than music notation, I don't know if a chart has all of the parts written, but have you ever seen a whole orchestral score? I think it takes a director to actually read all of the parts simultaneously, and if that doesn't make an engineer, well, I guess I'm still a second engineer then

Thanx for your feedback so far, this is getting an interesting exchange in points of view thumbsup

L.G

[picksail]

I come from a long musical background and am a composer as well. Writing a score and reading it are two completely different things and require vastly different motor skills. I am a much better writer than a reader. That said, this skill has proven very handy as an audio engineer....especially useful if you plan to work in film.


I think it is paramount with certain genres of music that an engineer possess the ability to at very least, follow a score. No question with a producer.

The ability to read/write a score will certainly increase your employability.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by picksail
I come from a long musical background and am a composer as well. Writing a score and reading it are two completely different things and require vastly different motor skills.

The ability to read/write a score will certainly increase your employability.

And actually, I wasn't suggesting that everyone should be able to write out a full score (though it would be a good skill to have). I added that bit mostly because being able to write a simply chord chart to use as a road map can help a lot.

[alphajerk]

i would think if you had the score in front of you on sessions with minimal study to its contents, it could be picked up fairly quickly enough to know whats going on [but as bob pointed out.... not enough to where you are doing the producers job, which was my first reaction on reading your post]... i think you are pretty right, its not REALLY your job but knowing where you are in the score for locating i/o points and knowing how the score is going to play out from there could be a good thing to know, and not that hard to pick up if you just pay a little more attention to it with a basic background to help you along.

[picksail]

Originally posted by Dave Martin
And actually, I wasn't suggesting that everyone should be able to write out a full score (though it would be a good skill to have). I added that bit mostly because being able to write a simply chord chart to use as a road map can help a lot.

Absolutely!!!!!

P.S. Dave, I hope you didn't think that I was contending your comment. Your post just inspired me to elaborate a little and speak form my experience.

Cheers

[jhamburg]

I agree with Bob et. al, in the end, you are crossing into production territory and you should receive fair credit and compensation.

I also agree that on large sessions (and small ones to a lesser degree) the engineer should really just be concerned with making sure everything is captured to best of his or her abilities.

All that said, I'd say that being able to read is indispensable in any world which utilizes scores or charts. There have been times that I used some simple musical vocabulary like "deceptive cadence" or even "turnaround" and I've seen the composer/producer/player physically relax as they get the sense that I have some modicum of training. I have had clients say to me after a session "it's nice to work with someone who gets what's going on". This has even happened on sessions where I've committed a bone-headed mistake. Besides the obvious benefits such as being able to know exactly what's happening, you may reap what I like to think of a session psychology points and when the session is rolling along you'll get to hear a whole slew of geeky viola jokes.

Personally, I find score reading fun and it helps keep me musically sharp.

joel

[Jules]

I dont think some of you are grasping the teamwork where an arranger out conducting might like to get the opinion of the performance back in the control room by his 'team mate / engineer"

Seems like some of you take the opinion that a foot up on the desk and a message down the talkback like....

"I don't know, why dont you just come in here and hear it back yourself, I aint bein paid enough to think, I am being paid to set mic's up and push buttons"

....while picking your teeth, is enough.

Perhaps it is, somewhere, but probably not for classical engineering work...



Seems to me these sessions run at high speed, to avoid overtime from a room full of session players, studio charges & loss of player concentration.

As I understand it, the engineering bills are high too!

Its a special skill set required, Decca tree & spot mic positioning, knowing how classical sessions run, working to get done in time, making sure you have all the takes required for editing together after the orchestra / players have gone.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Jules
I dont think some of you are grasping the teamwork where an arranger out conducting might like to get the opinion of the performance back in the control room by his 'team mate / engineer"

Seems like some of you take the opinion that a foot up on the desk and a message down the talkback like....

"I don't know, why dont you just come in here and hear it back yourself, I aint bein paid enough to think, I am being paid to set mic's up and push buttons"

thats not an engineers job IMO. maybe in classical sessions... they want a little more production from their engineers possibly? if they want an opinion of the PERFORMANCE.... thats a producers job, but the question of "how does it sound?" is an engineers job.

and im not saying this isnt a good skill to have... the more you know the better in anything you do. im just saying, and it happens to me at times and i dont do classical work and now i must get who is doing what ironed out before hand. am i engineering or am i producing? or am i doing both? i have had issues where i was ONLY hired to engineer the record and then expected to provide input on performances, which my reply is "are you hiring me [was i hired] to produce?" if it gets past a few times of offering my opinion of it... a few times i dont mind, but the sound of the initial post here was sounding like the guy was trying to pawn off his work on the poster.

[Dave Martin]

Originally posted by picksail
Absolutely!!!!!

P.S. Dave, I hope you didn't think that I was contending your comment. Your post just inspired me to elaborate a little and speak form my experience.

Cheers

I knew that, pick - just adding to it.

[pan60]

i think there should be a min. level of reading skills if you are working with musicians that read,
it is important for communication.
it can sometimes be a pain with a group when their is no common language.

[slobbermonster]

Knowledge doesn't take up space

[fifthcircle]

The classical world is a very different world. IMO, I think it is a necessity to be able to read and follow a score. It comes up pretty regularly that you need to do an active mix and make session decissions based on what the music says. To not understand it would be unacceptable on any of my sessions.

Now, for the other issues here... sounds like the Producer is trying to unload their job on to you. The whole point of a session producer is to sit there with the score, mark it up and make comments as to get the best possible product at the end of a session. In the sessions I've been involved with, the producer will always collaborate with the engineer and they will offer advice to each other, but in the end, the producer is in charge of the final decission. For editing, the ability to follow a score is an absolute necessity. The editing decisions, though, should be made by the producer and their staff (ie conductor, etc...) AFTER the session is done. In the session, you decide what needs covering, but in the end, you have what you have and then you put it together. Going bar by bar in a classical session is the reason why so many classical CD's are technically perfect, but have no soul. Let a couple minor issues through and listen to a great performance.

In the end, to have a successful session, each person should have a job- the one that they do best. The engineer while paying attention to performance needs to worry about the sound. The producer should worry about the music... Other assistants can hit other things (ie tape op, additional music/noise watching, etc...) In a big classical session, there is a lot going on and the money being spent (on the orchestra, etc...) dictates that everything run smoothly.

Ok... I'll get off my soapbox now.

--Ben

[Jose Mrochek]

A point I think you are forgetting Gerax, is that a WELL arranged/perfomed piece of whatever music, will SOUND better than a ok one. I always thought engineers where as much of a producer as a button pusher or mic placer. From a writer point of view, to know that the engineer is up to par musicaly will make everyone more confortable. There is a very thin line between the engineer and producer. At least thats how I like to see it. And who knows, if you take some music lessons you will end up being a producer yourself and doing the big bucks, and will be you who will require a engineer that reads music

[Bob Olhsson]

Absolutely offering knowledgable production advice and feedback is an important part of engineering. Where I draw the line is who decides which take/s should be kept.

[Gerax]

Well

I guess some of you have misunderstood my words: as Bob correctly pointed out being able to offer an usefull advice to the production is a key element, and I've always been able to accomplish such a task in the sessions I've done, like when you have to point out if a take was played in time or not, or if the intonation was good or not (the things that have been said to the death 'till now). I offer far more advice than what an engineer should (I think), in that I really belive in the teamwork effort; but I would like to stress the point that being that I'm hired to do a recording job, I definitely shouldn't be left alone with the session players and be called up to do both recording and producing: as I said earlier that has happened lots of times, either because the producer (who's a really busy one) wasn't available (and only booked the session) or for whatever other reason, and I had to make sure that I did my best job recording wise and "advice giving" wise: if a producer or a conductor doesn't show up at the session the musicians are let on their own devices and have less confidence in the whole thing, they could go "who are you to tell me if I'm playng in time or in tune"? if you know what I mean.
That's the thing that really makes my life more difficult during sessions; I have the best of intentions when working with producers and arrangers to collaborate and try to follow up the score, but how can you really be concentrated on the technical part of the job if you have your eyes on a music chart? It certainly takes lots of confidence and I really think I wouldn't have done my job right if I had overs on a track because it was played louder and I didn't notice because I was following the score...
My bottom line is: I agree that having some degree of music reading ability is a plus and a communication benefit in this kind of sessions, as long as it doesn't subtract from my actual and first responsability, which to me is recording.

Thanx everybody for your comments, keep it up.

L.G.

[alphajerk]

Originally posted by Gerax
I really think I wouldn't have done my job right if I had overs on a track because it was played louder and I didn't notice because I was following the score...

actually, if you were following the score, you would know before that part even hits that its coming allowing you to do your job better.

[Plush]

If you are working in classical recording, you must be able to read a score. That's just part of the job. Increasingly, the engineer is asked to be the producer and engineer and it's pretty common to do things this way. Of course one obtains a much higher fee for this work.

Most classical engineers I know can indeed decide which take should be used. It's done by marking the score as the music is played and, if you have a proper and clear marking system, the marked score shows you which takes to audition as "finals."

The marked score is your "roadmap" which also shows which sections (solos, endings, cadenzas) need to be re-done.

All of the above said, it is clear that your man is trying to pay you only an engineering fee while having you do both engineering and producer jobs.

However, any real classical engineer MUST read the score like a monster. Sorry, that's the way it is.

Of course, you could fake it----but you might leave the last session still with a bunch of wrong notes. Then you'd be fired.

[Roland]

I know a couple of very good classical engineers that do not read score, but it is becoming increasingly rare. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned the guys at Deutche Gramophone all who were qualified as "Tonmeister" and had to have proper musical training. Being that many of the majors have effectively shut down their in house recording system and tend to contract out to some of their previous employee's on an as required basis the nature of the classical music industry has changed significantly in the last few years. With ever increasing costs and lower sales many companies are not prepared to pay the cost of a producer and an engineer for sessions, particularly smaller scale ones. This coupled with the fact that there are (since people like Decca and alike closed their own operations) more freelancers chasing less work. I can think of several very talented engineers scratching around for a living. Back to the original question, no its not necessary for the engineer on a classical session to be able to read the score and note mistakes, thats the producers job! Yes of course it makes you more indispensable if you can. All our added skills can help be a deciding factor in whether we get the job, or it goes to someone else, thats the harsh reality of life.

Regards to all and a Happy New Year!


Roland