That's strange, is that solo or with a full band? I guess soundguys know all the tricks to making it look like they're working while dossing about. You know you're in for a long night when the soundman has to put his beer down so he can set the mics up (badly).
It's with a full band, but at the point I go wandering into the audience the band stop playing. So my guitar should be sounding loud and clear at that point.
I think a lot of sound engineers aren't sure how to deal with guitars that are pretty clean sounding.
This is my band (a live in the studio take with gig footage cut in) we don't sound much like a typical rock band so I don't expect too much from an uninitiated FOH engineer.
I also do understand the difficulties faced by FOH engineers, I've done my fair share over the years and while I wouldn't call it a speciality of mine I am often complimented when I mix a gig. I tend to err on the quieter side of things and keep the PA within it's comfortable headroom if I can. I certainly don't get the kit as loud as I can then try and bring the rest of the band up to that..... which seems to be a common mistake.
I am not tarring all Live Sound Engineers with the same brush, I have worked with some excellent crews on all levels, all over the world, on both sides of the monitors and really value a great crew. Thanks if you have done a good job on any gig I've worked, I really appreciate it!
At alot of the gigs I did, I used to wonder why on earth the guitars had to be so damn loud, whether the amps were miked and going through the PA or not. Surely it's better to get the vocals as loud as they can go and then work all the instruments around them?
If you are in a small to medium sized room doing anything other than jazz or classical, you almost NEVER get that choice.
The cymbals are what the cymbals are. And they are loud. And every microphone on the damn stage makes them even louder.
Your choice, barring some miracle, is to either mix everything up to the level of the cymbals, or listen to nothing but cymbals all night.
The magic lies in making the amplified stuff not that much more painful than the (already painful) unamplified cymbals.
__________________
- Mike Tate
Live sound guy
Wilmington De
Many times a sound guy would come up to my band and tell me to turn down my guitar amp so he could "mix me". The level they would accept was practice in your kitchen levels, a table radio level.
After that, I would turn to the sound guy and say; "no worries, I'll fix that".
During the first song, I would swing around with my guitar and in one step I would turn up my master volume to "where it needs to be" and then kick the SM57 placed on my speakers clear off the stage.
Then the mix sounded great, the sound guy was left balancing the vocals and drums. I got my feedback, the sound guy got a lesson, the crowd was pleased.
you are a real hero and you know how to handle situations ...
I was at a club in Minneapolis checking out a friend's band. They were pretty good but I was amazed at how bad the sound was. After about a half hour I had to sneak over to have a look at what was up. The individual faders were all up full blast and the master was at about -55!!! You would think even the worst of sound guys would have that figured out.
I read once where Supertramp paid there sound guy the same amount as the performers. Legend has it that there live sound was pretty good!
the small room i've been filling in at lately (200-300ish, brick walls all around) my mix is pretty much always kick, toms, vocals, a bit of snare and bass depending on the night/band. i mic guitars only so i can put them in the monitors if needed (which shouldn't be based on their insane stage volume). as a drummer/engineer i feel like most guitarists want to be the loudest thing and wave their dick around rather than play at a decent level that's balanced with the band. as always there are exceptions but this is the common trend. i'm usually pushing the board into distortion to compete with amp volume. if i ask them to turn down i'm treated with the utmost disrespect so i've given up on even asking.
there are a lot of bad live guys out there. Almost as many as bad studio guys hang around here.
But there are even more really bad bands out there, too.
If you're a 'good' band that wants a good live-sound, get yourself a good mixer. And I'm NOT talking FOH, I'm talking monitors.
THEN get a good FOH guy.
If you pay any of them less than $250 a night (+expenses), don't expect that you're getting a serious pro.
Sure Sqye, but the OP talked about a big Hollywood venue.
If you play a big venue, you can either
- afford shelling out $250 for a decent mixer because you are playing big venues regularly
OR
- can not afford that, only play small clubs, but this is a special and important gig for you (opening for a bigger act maybe) that should be worth $250 for a decent mixer.
That being said, there are many big touring acts with shitty sound out there as well.
Sure Sqye, but the OP talked about a big Hollywood venue.
If you play a big venue, you can either
- afford shelling out $250 for a decent mixer because you are playing big venues regularly
OR
- can not afford that, only play small clubs, but this is a special and important gig for you (opening for a bigger act maybe) that should be worth $250 for a decent mixer.
That being said, there are many big touring acts with shitty sound out there as well.
.
Agreed on all points.
Indeed - some of the bigger acts have even WORSE live sound - because their spaces are even bigger, and their sound is way louder.
Now, normally, we might assume that sound has the potential to increase in quality as the space size increases, but of course we know from real experience, that the sound just becomes unfocused and thin, so some people both on stage and in the audience receive better and more focused sound quality than others.
Obviously, bass is generally more manageable in a super large space, but everything else gets ****ed.
But I'd rather this problem ANY DAY, than super loud bass, guitars, drums and horns in a tiny room.
Of course, in a tiny room, you can always wear ear plugs, which can be very helpful.
...Because then you get to actually hear how bad the singer and guitarists usually are.
Saw 2 acts from the same production crew two nights in a row. Utterly baffled!
The first night was an acoustic singer songwriter with band backing - loads of bass, the classic live sound Kickdrum Of Death and no keyboards but pretty standard sound.
Second night was awful, it was like they'd blown everything but the subs. 3 peice band of Acoustic/voice,electric guitar and cajon. Only the bass thumps of the cajon could be heard, often the electric guitar solos consisted of a minute of embarassing silence and after about 30 minutes no one could hear the singer and the crowd just started talking. Show fizzled out from there, absolutely mortified for the musicians - alot of hard work for nothing!
__________________ Why don't you just knock it off with them negative waves?
Sure Sqye, but the OP talked about a big Hollywood venue.
If you play a big venue, you can either
- afford shelling out $250 for a decent mixer because you are playing big venues regularly
OR
- can not afford that, only play small clubs, but this is a special and important gig for you (opening for a bigger act maybe) that should be worth $250 for a decent mixer.
That being said, there are many big touring acts with shitty sound out there as well.
Hahahahahaha!
No. You almost always pay to play in LA, no matter the size of the venue, you just pay more to play the big shows! You would be blessed to cover your minimum door draw and your bar tab anywhere in LA.
Of course if you're a big artist then it's all moot because you're touring with your own guy anyway. So you can expect at a large venue that you will reimburse the club/promoter anywhere from $200-500 through ticket sales (or out of pocket if you don't draw) and they supply you with the mixer who probably can't be bothered with your sound because the change over is brutal.
I hope things are better in Berlin at least, but that's not the reality of playing in LA, though it may defy logic.
a certain production company from la would do shows in sf at a couple of clubs i worked at. i couldn't believe bands fell for that pay to play crap. they would book 10 band shows expecting each band to presell 100 tickets at a 500 capacity club. such a racket. i can get playing for free drinks, gas money, tips but i'll be damned if i ever pay to play a show.
The old tried and true methods are still best in LA. You get your parents to pay for the tickets, the soundman and the "showcase".
Then you get to explain to them for the next 20 years why you didn't "make it".
God how I wish that were a joke, but it's true...
Quote:
Originally Posted by suedesound
a certain production company from la would do shows in sf at a couple of clubs i worked at. i couldn't believe bands fell for that pay to play crap. they would book 10 band shows expecting each band to presell 100 tickets at a 500 capacity club. such a racket. i can get playing for free drinks, gas money, tips but i'll be damned if i ever pay to play a show.
I'd be willing to bet that none of the bands meshed stylistically either. It's always great to see a young singer/songwriter, followed by a hard rock band, followed by a reggae hip hop act, followed by two guys with keyboards... I know people who are "promoters" (they don't really promote, they just book) and while they're decent people, the gig is absolutely shady and shows no love for or interest in music.
Still the lack off respect for real live sound engineers is something to be sad about!
I am one of those and really passionate about it too. This is really not so good to read. I agree there are very few really good live engineers out there but is it so bad for you guys?
And for those that think about kicking mikes away. Try that with me you will get another thing coming like a purchase bill. We professionals don't dig that stuff!
Still the lack off respect for real live sound engineers is something to be sad about!
I am one of those and really passionate about it too. This is really not so good to read. I agree there are very few really good live engineers out there but is it so bad for you guys?
And for those that think about kicking mikes away. Try that with me you will get another thing coming like a purchase bill. We professionals don't dig that stuff!
I had this problem as a radio show board op. I kept getting personally disrespected, people didn't want to try my ideas. Radio show hosts can have a big ego, even on the local level. So I left and told them why.
They hired me back after the new guy made their show sound like garbage, with a salary increase and their minds are a bit more open to my ideas. The new engineer tried to get some answers from me over the phone and in email but I kept telling him/them that I was no longer an employee of the station and therefore was under no obligation to give free consultations. They realized quickly after I left that I wasn't just a monkey pushing random buttons.
__________________
"Use your ears, NOT your eyes!"
Exercise Gear: 400 lbs. of plates, two pairs of dumbbells, Weider 148 bench,
Weider Power Stack, treadmill, Shake Weight, gloves and New Balance running shoes.
A beat up, beer soaked, Mexican made SM-57? I did them a favor. I knocked the short stand over, it wasn't the first time that mic took a dive, but the first time it took one for the musicians. I'll pay $59 for a new one IF my band doesn't get ruined by the sound boy. I'll even pre-soak it in a beer for free so it sounds just like that one I kicked.
Man, we sounded great that night. The sound "boy" was a complete ass. It all worked out very well. I'd do it again in a heartbeat. I never have problems with pro's. LA is full of stories about sound boys getting worked over in the parking lot after a show. I like reading about those.
This is why you get crap soundpeople. (there are many qualified and extremely talented sound "girls" too. Jenny with NFG and Karrie with Pearl Jam/Rat Sound come to mind).
Beat up the mics, beat up the sound fool. Yeah, people wonder why the folks working production at the level you are playing are not satisfactory to you. They are completely and totally on par with your level of performance.
Those skilled, talented and professional engineers everyone misses are working for skilled, talented and professional bands......not saying anything detrimental to your (Jim's) stated musical prowess...more a broad stroke based on the "getting worked over" comment.
And they are working for much more than $250 a day......****ing PAs get paid that on sitcom sets.
Working as a Live Sound person for typical rock/rap/metal/country/gospel acts in a CLUB is a tough gig.
Everyday is attitudinal warfare filled with silent posturing and subversive actions. You are interacting with sensitive/creative types when they are most vulnerable, a live performance.
They want an excuse/confrontation. It alleviates the stress of the event.
Personally I try to redirect any issues in the Lampies direction.............
slow to the punch most lampies are. Except for Todd at HOB SD. That man is an animal.
Try to remember as you all gig out, the sound people are there because at some point in their diminutive lives, somewhere in their shrunken little beer-soaked brains........they loved or love music just as much as the rest of us.
And that for better or worse....they have the mute button.
Betcha the singer will turn the guitar amp down when the PA turns off and all you can hear is marshall growl. Problem solved from behind the punters.
The ship sinks together folks , stop throwing ****ing oars at the sound people and start to paddle.
__________________
"yeah yeah yeah just keep playin, i can fix it"
The worst thing is hard hitting drummers in small venues (or anywhere else for that matter haha). Especially in rock bands where they hit the cymbals and/or open hihats ALL the fricking time.
One time I was music directing a show and one of my musicians flipped on the soundperson. I actually made him write a written apology to the soundperson to be brought the next day to the show or I had every intention of replacing him in the pit band and made that clear. And I was also clear that it was a written apology. The way he flipped on the soundman, a verbal one wouldn't do it in my book.
You can bet your ass he had a written apology the next day in a card.
As a music director, I have no tolerance for any of my musicians to show any disrespect to anyone from the soundperson to the stagemanager. Even the prop mistress. We're all on the same team trying to make a show work. Everyone's overworked and frustrated.
Of course I do music professionally as a professional musician and so I carry myself in a professional manner, but even weekend warriors should show the same level of respect to anyone they work with.
I don't know if it's because I'm based in NYC and not LA, but in over 24 years of being a professional musician I've never heard once of a soundman being worked over in a parking lot by the musicians. That part just sounds like childish exaggeration to try to back your point up.
Regards,
Frank
__________________
My equipment: A Commodore 64, 2 1541 Disk Drives, Dr T's Music Studio and a Casiotone CT-460.
Never listen to opinions regarding gear. For every 50 nobodies on Gearslutz that say a piece of gear doesn't sound good enough to cut it, I know at least one somebody who is cutting it in NYC with that piece of gear.
The worst thing is hard hitting drummers in small venues (or anywhere else for that matter haha). Especially in rock bands where they hit the cymbals and/or open hihats ALL the fricking time.
+1 that and/or vocalists that sing soft and do what I like to call the ice cream cone haha.
I'm actually really surprised at some of the inflammatory comments being made towards soundguys by someone who is the owner of a respected professional gear company. I thought the first post made about kicking the 57 was an attempt at sarcasm or something, then subsequent posts confirmed that it indeed was not. Maybe the sound guy that night was a ****** or whatever, but I don't think doing what you did, much less bragging about it makes you sound like a better person in any way.
I'm actually really surprised at some of the inflammatory comments being made towards soundguys by someone who is the owner of a respected professional gear company. I thought the first post made about kicking the 57 was an attempt at sarcasm or something, then subsequent posts confirmed that it indeed was not. Maybe the sound guy that night was a ****** or whatever, but I don't think doing what you did, much less bragging about it makes you sound like a better person in any way.
Lol I'm not. The whipping boy status of live sound guys meets the cynicism of gearslutz..... Haha. But it goes both ways, if someone kicks a mic on my stage, I'll be mostly interested in smashing the lime in my gin haha. But seriously, it's like f#cking with your waiter...
Try to remember as you all gig out, the sound people are there because at some point in their diminutive lives, somewhere in their shrunken little beer-soaked brains........they loved or love music just as much as the rest of us.
If true, they show it in very strange ways. Like the sound boy that starts telling the band 'rules' before they have set up their gear. Or the sound boy that decides he's the master of that universe and must turn everything down on stage so he can practice his studio mixing skills.
A little cooperation goes a long way, but that's a two way street. One way, my way sound boys don't operate that way.
BTW, I asked mixer Arnie Toshner of Britannia Row why he was always so pissed off at the musicians when I toured with Stevie Wonder in the early 1980's. He said "I hate musicians".
So I asked, "why are you in this biz doing this work"?
He says, "so I can get back at them".
See, it even happens at the top of the live sound food chain.
I used to wonder why soundguys always seemed to be pissed off pricks when I played shows.
When I became a full-time live sound guy I began to understand.
I won't go out to a live show at a club because 9 times out of 10 the sound will be shit, and it really bugs me to the point of not wanting to be in the room.
There are plenty of touring soundguys that suck too. I would say at least half of them that I dealt with in a local club that I worked this past year were bad. There were a couple of excellent ones, some good ones, and a bunch of douches.
Dick-headed musicians don't do themselves any favors abusing soundguys even if they are crappy.
Some of the folks with the attitudes on this thread might see things very differently if they had to be on the other side of the desk for a living. It's kind of like how you feel about tipping when you have worked in the service industry--it's good karma and you know how it can be working for tips.
some very good recent posts in this thread. much like anything else in life if you show somebody no respect don't expect any back. i don't work arenas, mostly 200-1000 cap places. i will bend over backwards for your band if you treat me with dignity and respect even if there's only 5 people at the show. you treat me like a "sound boy" i will walk away from the board and hang out at the bar. and if you kick my mic offstage on purpose i will shove it up your ass at the end of the night.
Well I hug musicians from time to time... And cute singers with tiny skirts..
But this threat has gone up recently. Good to read!
Jim, man I respect you. I bought a couple of MCA-SP1's and upgraded them with your advices. It boggles my mind that you can be like that... Weird.
It's none of your business how the soundguys treat their mikes. You have got to learn to respect other peoples stuff. Also calling someone a sound boy is not going to give you respect. Maybe you are right and the guy sucked. You might want to be nice to him and when possible help him to understand things better.
Cool this topic has turned around. We all, sound engineers and musicians should hug each other we are all doing the same thing with the same goal. Namely making great music. We need a great team spirit for that!
We all, sound engineers and musicians should hug each other we are all doing the same thing with the same goal. Namely making great music. We need a great team spirit for that!
When I was a fill-in sound guy the hot bartenders some times gave me shoulder rubs. Just to "be friendly". That was a shady place so I didn't work there for long...ended up getting busted by the FBI for details I won't go into here, hahahaha.
New Reply 
Facebook
Twitter
LinkedIn
