blast the children of the computer age!

[GILFOIL]

i keep seeing this issue pop up more and more on gearslutz:

people complaining about "oh back in the day, we had to really play the instruments, there was no auto tune, we didn't have computers, we didn't have no protools, we couldn't just copy & paste, you had to be a 'real musician' to make music, i had to walk through a million feet of snow uphill both ways in my grandpops underwear to get to the studio, now any joe blow teenager with a laptop can 'make beatz' "

blah blah blah.

to those with this opinion, i have 2 things to say:

1. it's not our fault personal computers became affordable during our generation.
2. sorry about your luck.
3. just because we've grown up with more modern technology as far as making music goes, doesn't make us any less creative than anyone who came before us, or doesn't give you any right to criticize us for it

[Empire Prod]

Originally Posted by GILFOIL

i keep seeing this issue pop up more and more on gearslutz:

people complaining about "oh back in the day, we had to really play the instruments, there was no auto tune, we didn't have computers, we didn't have no protools, we couldn't just copy & paste, you had to be a 'real musician' to make music, i had to walk through a million feet of snow uphill both ways in my grandpops underwear to get to the studio, now any joe blow teenager with a laptop can 'make beatz' "

blah blah blah.

to those with this opinion, i have 2 things to say:

1. it's not our fault personal computers became affordable during our generation.
2. sorry about your luck.

Sounds like you have some life lessons to learn. I doubt your attitude will be the same 10-20 years from now. A wise man learns from his mentors, a fool mocks.

[DigitMus]

Originally Posted by GILFOIL

i keep seeing this issue pop up more and more on gearslutz:

people complaining about "oh back in the day, we had to really play the instruments, there was no auto tune, we didn't have computers, we didn't have no protools, we couldn't just copy & paste, you had to be a 'real musician' to make music, i had to walk through a million feet of snow uphill both ways in my grandpops underwear to get to the studio, now any joe blow teenager with a laptop can 'make beatz' "

blah blah blah.

to those with this opinion, i have 2 things to say:

1. it's not our fault personal computers became affordable during our generation.
2. sorry about your luck.

There speaks someone who has never had to spend 2/3 of his life learning/practicing/honing his craft. If you think that a piece of software in any way replaces decades of human knowledge/experience, I really feel sorry for you. I really do. My condolences.

Scott

[GILFOIL]

Originally Posted by Empire Prod

Sounds like you have some life lessons to learn. I doubt your attitude will be the same 10-20 years from now. A wise man learns from his mentors, a fool mocks.

i'm sorry that you misunderstood my post.

the people i speak of are by no means "mentors"

i'm speaking of people whom criticize younger generations for their minimal, or lack of understanding of how "records used to be made" without the technology we have today, and seemingly look down on us as (and this is directly quoted from another thread) as mere "20 year olds with laptops" without even extending any type of advice, knowledge, or "wisdom"

if thats your definition of a "mentor" then i don't need one.

no, i may not have been alive when multi track recording was invented.
but i CAN tell you who invented it.

no, i may not know *exactly* how to work a tape machine.
but i CAN tell you i've spent many hours in front of a studer wishing i could.

all i'm saying is just because we've grown up with more modern technology as far as making music goes, doesn't make us any less creative than anyone who came before us.

and yes, i do have many many MANY life lessons to learn.
but the type of people i speak of certainly won't help me get any closer.

[GILFOIL]

Originally Posted by DigitMus

There speaks someone who has never had to spend 2/3 of his life learning/practicing/honing his craft. If you think that a piece of software in any way replaces decades of human knowledge/experience, I really feel sorry for you. I really do. My condolences.

Scott

once again, i'm sorry you misunderstood my post.

not once did or would i ever claim that a piece software could replace decades of human anything.

once again,

all i'm saying is just because we've grown up with more modern technology as far as making music goes, doesn't make us any less creative than anyone who came before us.

for **** sakes people READ THE POST

[Infernal Device]

Originally Posted by GILFOIL

no, i may not know *exactly* how to work a tape machine.
but i CAN tell you i've spent many hours in front of a studer wishing i could.

One of these evil old guys will be the one to show you.

Wikipedia won't help with that.

[rkwyent]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree with this one. I understand where you are coming from. I have only recorded on DAWs during most of my recording life.

However, we still need the bits and pieces of knowledge that the old timers had to be at the top of our craft.

Until you can make an ITB mix or master sound as great as it would sound done on PROFESSIONAL analog gear, you will not get any respect.

Keep reading keep learning and show them what you got.

Stop nagging. Ignore the winers and learn the good sh*t in between thier posts.

There isn't much better than some good sounding vinyl or tape plus transformers and tubes can sound really great.

[Cosmic Closet]

I think part of why some of the responses about "real musicianship" comes about is because for better or worse, the PC-driven tools do offer the possibility of piece-mealing a song together, one line at a time, if needed. It will get the job done cleanly, but it will certainly not give much in the way of emotional continuity or 'vibe' in the final product. It will sound 'professional.'

And, by extension, perhaps too many people who grew up with PC recording are pre-conditioned to the idea of 'fixing' the takes afterwards, as opposed to being able (or willing) to nail a take all the way through when the red light comes on. I'd love to hear how many still adhere to 'rehearsal is king and a take goes to the end' before recording non-linear.

I realize tape machines punch in (I am 48 after all ) but even that convenience is nothing compared to the note-by-note massage you can give something in ProTools.
Now, whether you SHOULD is another question altogether, and I can't help but feel that it is perhaps some of this tension that shows itself between the younger crowd and and older recordists here.

Whether it is because the younger guys feel the truth hurts or whether the older guys are jumping to conclusions, I will leave for others to decide

Best,
Claus.

[jigsawlogic]

I agree with the general message of adaptation. Look at the evolution of the "written" word...from scribe to movable type to computer printing. The scribe might bemoan that future generations will never know how to cut a perfect quill or pound and mix the ingredients for a certain ink. The typesetter's art (at least relating to its physical mechanism) is now a dead one. But even though the medium has changed, without a good grasp of visual art, a person's ability to craft the final product is limited.

In the most general terms, your argument boils down to a separation between medium and message. Any message is able to be extracted from one medium (technologically outmoded) and reproduced in another (modern). When it comes to recording, this is a possibility, and progress towards emulating "real' gear is encouraging.

But what about musicianship? Without knowing the language and phrasing associated with any genre, you limit yourself to the role of patchwork artist. No matter whether the instrument is your computer or a trumpet, can you phrase a jazz solo? A hard rock guitar part? A passable drum beat? I'm not saying that it's impossible to do being primarily a computer artist. But knowing how to play an instrument well is a more direct route into the heart of musical language, and translates into better results regardless of whether your instrument of choice is virtual or real.

Truth is, if you're a loop artist, then you're a collage artist. A collage artist doesn't need skill in the areas of drawing or photography. What he needs is a good knack for balancing and manipulating pre-created elements, which constitutes the whole of his art. But he still relies on conventional artists to provide the materials he uses. Likewise, a loop artist doesn't need to know the first thing about music. But his craft is built on the back of those who do.

I'd agree that once a person knows enough about the core of music, anything becomes an instrument in his hands, whether its a guitar or a computer. At that point, a person knows how to quantify their message in terms such as timing, notes, and timbre. Choosing a medium becomes a matter of sizing up its appropriateness to your task. But by shunning musical skill itself, you limit your ability to develop and quantify your message, and become shackled to a single medium.

Sorry for the rant...a nerve had been touched.

[Raketel]

I don't post often and I don't want to offend you GILFOIL, a few month ago I was thinking the same. But things changed when I had the chance to learn from some old folks bands, who started playing their instruments before I was even a sperm or planned. There was this one guy called Peter Weihe(legendary guitarist in germany), who gave a workshop in berlin recently. He showed us some recordings he made with his collection of guitar amps also some orchestral recordings made at the abbey roads studio. After he showed that to us, many certainly realized how crappy our recordings with emulations/synths are. But he also mentioned, it's sad that we all have to make our mixes so loud, since we got the widest dynamic range ever with the 48bits summing points we got now(yes, it was a digidesign event). The loudness-war maybe not our fault(many people today get confused when there's more than 6dB dynamic in a finished product), but our ignorance in saying there's no preceptible difference between emulation and hardware is certainly one reason why some major recordings start to sound unenjoyable. If you have some young musicians and teach them, that there's no difference beweteen emulation and hardware, they'll just spend less money on their equipment because they know you have some plugins that emulate guitar amps. Somehow I hit these musicians all the time and it's very frustrating, because no matter how hard you try, if the first signal in the chain doesn't sound good, nothing will ever make it sound good. It will sound ok, but ok isn't good. Kinda like fastfood compared to moms or grandmas food ;)
Just my 2 cents, sorry for the rant. If I'm too much of an hardware freak, I'm sorry, but always mixing in the box kinda makes leaves me unsatisfied lately.

[christmasjones]

some how most of you missed the main point of this thread, i think.

[Sqye]

.

how about THIS?

everybody rocks,

and everybody sucks...



........can we live with this?


get over it - who gives a fukk.....

seriously. fukk what other people think -


if you think you're great, some other dumb critical m*therfukker

who puts his pants on one leg at a time (just like you),

and might just happen to be a few years older,

can say or think whatever they want - who gives a fukkk?


just keep rockin...


......and get a great team of investors, techies, managers, lawyers, publishers and PR people....

...(or not, who gives a fukk)...


did i say, who gives a fukk, yet?...... .........

.

[moracspace]

I think its more about paying dues.No matter what the trade it has always been easier for the newbies.Someone has cleared the trail befor the others traveled it.

[GILFOIL]

Originally Posted by christmasjones

some how most of you missed the main point of this thread, i think.

i think you're right.

when i posted this, by NO MEANS was i trying to offend or attack any of the older guys, nor was i trying to compare the use of a traditional instrument to the use of a computers, nor was i trying to compare the analogue method of recording (tape) to digital (PT), nor was i trying to compare hardware to software.

now that i re-read the thread, i'll try getting my point across clearer:

i have noticed, *in my own experience*, that *some* of the guys that have been engineering since before the computer age, seem to think that the newer generations have it much "easier" than they did, as a result of the development of new technology (aka computers, DAWs ect.) and i almost sense a feeling of bitterness whenever the subject comes up. now the fact is, this is a very SUBJECTIVE topic.

for example, one might say - "it's too easy to make music now with all the new technology"

to this, i might reply, "yes, but in a sense it's harder to make music, because although the new technology has decreased the difficulty to come out with a finished product, this has resulted in MORE people doing it, which essentially increases the difficulty of coming out with a finished product, due simply to the fact that there is so much competition, one has to work significantly harder to GET to the top, let alone stay there."

yes, technology is moving faster than ever. yes, there is alot of hacks out there claiming to be "musicians" and more so, "producers" as a result.

what i'm saying is, if you wanna call up digi-design and curse them out for what they do, go nuts.

but please!, don't take it out on us...it's already practically impossible to get anywhere in this industry, even with all the fancy gizmos we have (that you didnt)

so again, it's not our fault, and regardless of the tools we are using, IMO, we can still be as creative as anyone who came before us.

i hope this clears things up.

thanks, and g0d bless.

[Led]

In some ways I feel a bit sorry for the younger ones starting out now. It seems to be a lot harder business to be starting in now than it was when I was a teen (late 80's). 'Course in those days we had to record on dirt with a stick, and if the wind blew too hard it ruined your take and you had to re-record. Hell even a light breeze took the top end off your hi hats but I say use every trick at your disposal....