tracking levels in Control Room...

Nik · 20th December 2002, 09:50 PM

I find I am pretty good at maintaining appropriate levels whilst mixing but that goes down the toilet when I am tracking if the bass player or guitar player are in the control room.

They need the levels to groove etc. but at the end of the day we are tracking at 100dB +. Not good for the ears.

Earplugs don't do it in that you have to keep taking them out to really hear the nuances in the audio etc.

Maybe some sort of "headphone" filter that you can whip off after a take and "see" what is actually going on with the audio?

Any thoughts or sollutions? Turning down just messes with the vibe/groove/performance.

I don't want to go deaf!

Jax · 21st December 2002, 12:06 AM

Get some of those earplugs that attenuate volume, but not frequency. The custom molded ones where they shoot foam into your ears to take a cast are great (kinky kind of sexual sensation too, btw). They come with -15dB or -25dB removable pads. I finally really started enjoying rock shows when I could hear things and not leave worried with my ears ringing. Also, I never play drums without 'em.

Mine were made by Westone Technologies, and I went to Project H.E.A.R. in my city to get both a hearing test and fit for my custom plugs. They're about $200, but very much worth it. Just don't lose 'em.

Nik · 21st December 2002, 01:47 AM

Thanks,

But I don't know how accurate they would be in the studio? I suspect that they do alter frequency perception to some degree.

There are a few drummers that work at my facility who have just the products you have mentioned. They say they work brilliantly at gigs etc but...

Read an article two years ago in mix where the movie mix eng. were looking at using them for mixing but the same questions were being asked.

I will certainly check it out.

Thanks!

regards,

Nik

Anyone else worry about this stuff?

Can you hear me....? What?? Speak up!yuktyy

21st December 2002, 01:51 AM

In a Metalica videos the guitarists are wearing headphones in the CR, I guess they wanted to hear it louder than Bob Rock..

Steve Smith · 21st December 2002, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nik
Thanks,

But I don't know how accurate they would be in the studio?

I should think thay will be more accurate than you ears will be after a few hours above 100db....

Jax · 21st December 2002, 02:43 AM

You'll never know until you try or maybe if you borrow someone's and try to force them into your incompatibly shaped ear canal...

They're probably the best thing you can do short of really $$$ in ear monitoring.

Nik · 21st December 2002, 04:47 PM

Yeah...true.

tried the ER20 generic fit but ended up with one hell of a jaw ache.

I sometimes wonder about the drummers. Man, the levels in their cans is incredible. Clear your sinus in one bar of click.

What you want is to hear all the openess with no barrier for a bar or two and then get some protection.

Nik

chrisso · 28th December 2002, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve Smith
I should think thay will be more accurate than you ears will be after a few hours above 100db....

Actually, that's a really good point.

It's a tough one though, can't think of an immediate solution.
It seems a crazy situation if producers and engineers are wearing ear plugs in the control room. I'd say the musicians should be able to get a vibe at a lower volume level.
The only two vague things I can add;
You can crank NS10's pretty loud and the music sounds vibey but not as scarily loud as the main room monitors. Or, have you tried placing the musicians nearest the monitors? If they're a foot away it's going to take their head off and you might be able to sit back out of the direct line of the speaker throw.

e-cue · 28th December 2002, 04:15 PM

Set up a talkback mic so you can hear the guitarist between takes. Get some in-ear monitors, and send yourself a cue mix for in the control room. Send the talkback mic into a compressor and compress it so you can hear anyone in the room when the tape/daw is stopped, then send this into a gate, duck it keyed to a smpte feed from your Tape/Daw. When you are playing/recording, the smpte feed with shut off the "auto talkback mic", and open when you aren't playing.
Only prob I see is if your are listening back, and the guitarist want to talk to your over the music, in which case you could bypass the gate, but you'll pick up the music being played through the monitors at 100db into your talkback mic. But shouting over 100db's is kinda silly anyway.

Okay, did that make any gotdamn sense?

Those bass shaker joints also help some people that need to "Feel" the music. Set two up on a drummer's throne with the kick's being sent to them the loudest and he/she will love you for life.

e-cue · 28th December 2002, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jax
They're about $200, but very much worth it.

Everyone should own some anyway. If you have your ears "insured", I understand it's mandotory or something. They are more important than seat belts to me...

Jax · 29th December 2002, 09:00 PM

Yup, I love my earplugs.

Also, women love sitting on a drum throne with the bass shaker attached. Gets that special area vibrating. Great way to give a girl drum lessons. They never want to leave.

e-cue · 29th December 2002, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by e-cue
Those bass shaker joints also help some people that need to "Feel" the music. Set two up on a drummer's throne with the kick's being sent to them the loudest and he/she will love you for life.

I just realized how "gay" that sounded if you were a dude. Oh well, it's the new millenium right?

Nik · 29th December 2002, 11:59 PM

Thanks chaps

bjornson · 9th January 2003, 10:52 PM

I set up a second set of moniters behind me on the outboard rack
2' from their head. They hear 110db but after the reflections and diffusion it's not that loud behind the console.

Nik · 14th January 2003, 01:14 AM

Not bad.

How about duct tape around some nearfields strapped directly on head of player? This could be augmented with a "sub" derrived from a potty strapped to the butt of said musician? Good bottom end.

Nikyuktyy

Yukon · 17th January 2006, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jules

In a Metalica videos the guitarists are wearing headphones in the CR, I guess they wanted to hear it louder than Bob Rock..

The are wearing headphones (Randy & James) while tracking so they can hear the music in its entirety. The producer (Bob) listens to the heavy gtr track solo'ed with its mults to make sure that they were tight as hell.....hence the wall of sound.

chuckj · 17th January 2006, 08:02 AM

If you have any type of roll-around remote, roll it to the back of the room and roll the guitarist in his/her chair right up in front of the speakers. If you are normally 3 feet from the speakers and you end up 9 or 12 feet from the speakers, that should help.
What's the rule again? When the distance doubles from the source you drop 6db in level? It also sounds like one of the new "Tranzport" wireless controls should help also if you live in the DAW world exclusively.

Fletcher · 18th January 2006, 10:27 PM

What's up fellas... is this like your first day on the job or something?

Go to a gun shop, buy a set of "gun shot hearing protectors". When you're not monitoring at blistering volume you take them off and store them on your thigh while communicating with the player... then before you hit "play" again you put them on.

It ain't rocket surgery.

7rojo7 · 21st January 2006, 12:02 AM

or those aircraft ground traffic director headsets, they come with free set of paddles, and if you get tired of engineering you're already equipped for a new career.
Bsists and gtrists need the volume to simulate being in the same room with the amp for controlling feedback and such, sympathy works better than a compressor. I'm thinking of getting a big PA speaker to track GTRs and BSs cause even my 8050s aren't loud enough.

dillweed · 25th January 2006, 09:08 PM

I too am sick of going home with ears ringing. Now i put on sealed headphones not plugged into anything.

Have an idea that i want to try. get a powered "wedge" pa monitor and point at the guitarist/bassist....they can have it as loud as they want.....
Anyone else try this???

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20th December 2002, 09:50 PM	#1
Nik Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durban Posts: 92	tracking levels in Control Room... I find I am pretty good at maintaining appropriate levels whilst mixing but that goes down the toilet when I am tracking if the bass player or guitar player are in the control room. They need the levels to groove etc. but at the end of the day we are tracking at 100dB +. Not good for the ears. Earplugs don't do it in that you have to keep taking them out to really hear the nuances in the audio etc. Maybe some sort of "headphone" filter that you can whip off after a take and "see" what is actually going on with the audio? Any thoughts or sollutions? Turning down just messes with the vibe/groove/performance. I don't want to go deaf!

21st December 2002, 12:06 AM	#2
Jax Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Rafael, CA Posts: 3,668	Get some of those earplugs that attenuate volume, but not frequency. The custom molded ones where they shoot foam into your ears to take a cast are great (kinky kind of sexual sensation too, btw). They come with -15dB or -25dB removable pads. I finally really started enjoying rock shows when I could hear things and not leave worried with my ears ringing. Also, I never play drums without 'em. Mine were made by Westone Technologies, and I went to Project H.E.A.R. in my city to get both a hearing test and fit for my custom plugs. They're about $200, but very much worth it. Just don't lose 'em. __________________ When the music is good, the mix is that much better.

21st December 2002, 02:43 AM	#6
Jax Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Rafael, CA Posts: 3,668	You'll never know until you try or maybe if you borrow someone's and try to force them into your incompatibly shaped ear canal... They're probably the best thing you can do short of really $$$ in ear monitoring. __________________ When the music is good, the mix is that much better.

29th December 2002, 09:00 PM	#11
Jax Lives for gear Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: San Rafael, CA Posts: 3,668	Yup, I love my earplugs. Also, women love sitting on a drum throne with the bass shaker attached. Gets that special area vibrating. Great way to give a girl drum lessons. They never want to leave. __________________ When the music is good, the mix is that much better.

21st December 2002, 01:47 AM	#3
Nik Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durban Posts: 92	Thanks, But I don't know how accurate they would be in the studio? I suspect that they do alter frequency perception to some degree. There are a few drummers that work at my facility who have just the products you have mentioned. They say they work brilliantly at gigs etc but... Read an article two years ago in mix where the movie mix eng. were looking at using them for mixing but the same questions were being asked. I will certainly check it out. Thanks! regards, Nik Anyone else worry about this stuff? Can you hear me....? What?? Speak up!yuktyy

21st December 2002, 01:51 AM	#4
Jules Guest Posts: n/a	In a Metalica videos the guitarists are wearing headphones in the CR, I guess they wanted to hear it louder than Bob Rock..

21st December 2002, 04:47 PM	#7
Nik Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durban Posts: 92	Yeah...true. tried the ER20 generic fit but ended up with one hell of a jaw ache. I sometimes wonder about the drummers. Man, the levels in their cans is incredible. Clear your sinus in one bar of click. What you want is to hear all the openess with no barrier for a bar or two and then get some protection. Nik

28th December 2002, 04:15 PM	#9
e-cue Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Lost Angeles Posts: 3,883	Set up a talkback mic so you can hear the guitarist between takes. Get some in-ear monitors, and send yourself a cue mix for in the control room. Send the talkback mic into a compressor and compress it so you can hear anyone in the room when the tape/daw is stopped, then send this into a gate, duck it keyed to a smpte feed from your Tape/Daw. When you are playing/recording, the smpte feed with shut off the "auto talkback mic", and open when you aren't playing. Only prob I see is if your are listening back, and the guitarist want to talk to your over the music, in which case you could bypass the gate, but you'll pick up the music being played through the monitors at 100db into your talkback mic. But shouting over 100db's is kinda silly anyway. Okay, did that make any gotdamn sense? Those bass shaker joints also help some people that need to "Feel" the music. Set two up on a drummer's throne with the kick's being sent to them the loudest and he/she will love you for life.

29th December 2002, 11:59 PM	#13
Nik Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durban Posts: 92	Thanks chaps

9th January 2003, 10:52 PM	#14
bjornson Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Pittsburgh Pa Posts: 533	I set up a second set of moniters behind me on the outboard rack 2' from their head. They hear 110db but after the reflections and diffusion it's not that loud behind the console.

14th January 2003, 01:14 AM	#15
Nik Gear nut Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Durban Posts: 92	Not bad. How about duct tape around some nearfields strapped directly on head of player? This could be augmented with a "sub" derrived from a potty strapped to the butt of said musician? Good bottom end. Nikyuktyy

17th January 2006, 08:02 AM	#17
chuckj Gear nut Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 131	If you have any type of roll-around remote, roll it to the back of the room and roll the guitarist in his/her chair right up in front of the speakers. If you are normally 3 feet from the speakers and you end up 9 or 12 feet from the speakers, that should help. What's the rule again? When the distance doubles from the source you drop 6db in level? It also sounds like one of the new "Tranzport" wireless controls should help also if you live in the DAW world exclusively. __________________ Chuck Jopski Summerhouse Sound Productions www.summerhousesound.com

18th January 2006, 10:27 PM	#18
Fletcher member no 666 Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Foxboro, MA USA Posts: 5,782	What's up fellas... is this like your first day on the job or something? Go to a gun shop, buy a set of "gun shot hearing protectors". When you're not monitoring at blistering volume you take them off and store them on your thigh while communicating with the player... then before you hit "play" again you put them on. It ain't rocket surgery. __________________ Fletcher R/E/P the Recording Engineer and Producer forums Mercenary Audio the small drinking company with a large audio problem mwagener wrote on Sat, 11 September 2004 14:33 We are selling emotions, there are no emotions in a grid Roscoe Ambel once said: Pro-Tools is to audio what fluorescent is to light

21st January 2006, 12:02 AM	#19
7rojo7 urumita Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Spoleto, Italy Posts: 1,284	or those aircraft ground traffic director headsets, they come with free set of paddles, and if you get tired of engineering you're already equipped for a new career. Bsists and gtrists need the volume to simulate being in the same room with the amp for controlling feedback and such, sympathy works better than a compressor. I'm thinking of getting a big PA speaker to track GTRs and BSs cause even my 8050s aren't loud enough. __________________ love and light

25th January 2006, 09:08 PM	#20
dillweed Gear maniac Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Tx. Posts: 159	I too am sick of going home with ears ringing. Now i put on sealed headphones not plugged into anything. Have an idea that i want to try. get a powered "wedge" pa monitor and point at the guitarist/bassist....they can have it as loud as they want..... Anyone else try this???

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