A future in this industry

Micksandy · 24th May 2008, 12:48 AM

ok, i'll shoot from the hip. I'm not sure that this is a "moan" but here goes.

I'm finishing up my sound engineering intensive one year training and graduating in a couple of months as a full fledged sound engineer trained in recording, sequencing, mixing, mastering etc. and I am a little more than worried. I spend much of the time, when not working on school projects and a syndicated radio show that I have produced now for two years for an extremely small two man company based out of Nashville with no money......searching for work, contacts, leads, advice....anything that will help me land anything after this is complete. I'm not just a wet behind the ears student. Well, maybe a little...but I have been living and breathing music and production since as long as I can remember...just now I decided to get the formal study for it and I realize the true schooling come when you work under someone successful, wise and knowledgeable. I remember working in restaurants and seeing guys fresh out of cooking school being turned away for the dishwashers with no formal culinary education turning into chefs.

I am hearing a lot of the "feast or famine" talk. I left corporate sales where I was doing fairly well but really really despised my job and decided to that it wasnt worth the constant negativity suiting up each day merging into the daily sales rat race and and decided to go into audio since I have been splicing tapes and mixing music since I was a kid.

I'm 37 and many have been saying that most studios have apprentices working for free and even the most studios have guys making a little money here and there. I usually respond with "well, I love music, I love making music so I'd rather be poor living within my passion bubble than making very good money surrounded by bad energy in something that I have no desire to do while slowly waltzing to my death bed with regrets".....but I'm getting a little bit afraid now thinking that come August, I'll be wandering the streets competing like a wannabe actor waiting tables in L.A. Especially since 20K in debt from one year of school is gonna haunt my finances for some time to come.

I live in Montreal and although the industry is pretty good here for music, there is no way that I can get a job without 1) being fluent french which would take me years to obtain and 2) not being a true montrealer which, apparently, seems to be a private behind the scenes prerequisite in this city (don't get me wrong....I love this city very much).

Is the outlook that grim for an newbie in the industry? As far as finding work, although I am not happy that I don't have a family at my age yet, I am lucky to have the ability to be nomadic and go anywhere...but to be honest, I search the internet for jobs constantly and most of the search results are for schools looking for students and others like me looking for studio jobs. I'm willing to pay my dues but I don't know the first place to start in this crusade for audio work. I wouldnt even have a long established resume since the only resume work I can put on is producing a radio show for two years with no studio work other than projects within the school.

I am certain that this is a regular forum entry but I will take any (serious) advice or tips if any of you established folks can dish any out.

Sorry for the long drawn out whine...but I had to take a chance and tap the brains of those who have made it or are achieving what they sought out to do, even to a degree.

Cheers

MM

joelpatterson · 24th May 2008, 01:51 AM

First: I would never advise anyone to follow my example (build a studio and hope someone came.) It was never pre-ordained that it would work out-- I feel like I am living one of the scenarios when it did-- equally possible are alternate universes where it didn't.

But, you know the one thing I could have used alot more of, just growing up and making my way in the world in general? Alot more confidence in myself. Looking back, I was far too maleable to other people's advice and steering me in directions that just weren't right for me. Well-meaning as it all was. And a little reservior of fearfulness in myself made me listen to this advice, and 'play it safe,' when that was about the worst possible thing I could have done.

You should forget the 'getting a job' angle, and watch for the 'getting in on some action' angle. Make yourself a part of some band's or some concert hall's career.

And, take it for me-- you're a genius, people will be so glad they met you and you agreed to work with them.

And don't take anyone's advice too seriously. You'll thank me for this someday.

Micksandy · 24th May 2008, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by joelpatterson

First: I would never advise anyone to follow my example (build a studio and hope someone came.) It was never pre-ordained that it would work out-- I feel like I am living one of the scenarios when it did-- equally possible are alternate universes where it didn't.

But, you know the one thing I could have used alot more of, just growing up and making my way in the world in general? Alot more confidence in myself. Looking back, I was far too maleable to other people's advice and steering me in directions that just weren't right for me. Well-meaning as it all was. And a little reservior of fearfulness in myself made me listen to this advice, and 'play it safe,' when that was about the worst possible thing I could have done.

You should forget the 'getting a job' angle, and watch for the 'getting in on some action' angle. Make yourself a part of some band's or some concert hall's career.

And, take it for me-- you're a genius, people will be so glad they met you and you agreed to work with them.

And don't take anyone's advice too seriously. You'll thank me for this someday.

Cheers Joel, I am in with a band right now that have a lot of talent. We're working on a demo for them and I keep suggesting things that they have never even considered (web marketing for one) but they are pretty tight in their ways with the desire to capture ONLY that live sound. It takes a shoehorn with vaseline to pry the singer out of the musicians' tracking room to do his vocals because he keeps insisting that he wants to have that live sound and track along with the band and doesnt seem to understand that it's impossible unless he wants to be the king of the leak freaks...i digress. My father started his career in radio, then managing and took a, then, undiscovered Eileen Twain to Nashville to record and produced her first album when she was just 16 (then they got in a fight on the way back to Toronto and she jumped out of the car and they haven't spoken since) so I get the bug from him, I think. I have heard stories of him sinking his life savings into bands and losing his shirt but these days it might be a bit easier with so much access to music and sites like Virb.com and unsigned.com and myspace music etc. I realize that it's tougher these days in one way but in another way, it's the most exciting time for music. Even if everyone thinks they are the bedroom Bruce Swedien or Bob Katz recording from their closet but I ultimately want my own studio and am trying to build little by little (this site is my idea mecca).
I just hope that I can be happy in this industry and make enough to pay my rent at least. I've often thought about migrating to Europe or the States but I guess I'll stay put until I can uncover something or get something happening in my own pad and build it and hope they come.

Michael MacLennan

dropblacksky · 24th May 2008, 10:17 PM

I'm not going to lie and say that it's an easy thing to get into. There's a ton of competition out there...and a lot of Audio school grads doing nada.

I think the fact that you're older with work experience can give you an advantage in the market. You're going to fit in better with the people who hold positions in the industry and they'll see you more as a peer than some wet behind the ears intern.

My main advice would be to diversify your work. I'm not sure what your program covered...but there can be lots of audio related work to be had. I graduated from a larger (and more expensive) audio school last August, and I've worked on a couple major motion pictures, I edit audiobooks on the side, and I work for a producer in his project studio full time. I never cleaned toilets for free, and I make a decent living wage that builds as I take on more and different projects...so it can work even when you're just starting out.

Stay positive, nurture your contacts, diversify your work, and focus more on connecting with artists and projects as opposed to facilities and you can make it happen for yourself.

joelpatterson · 25th May 2008, 02:29 AM

And another thing-- if you survive in this industry, you end up working with people who have also survived-- all the preposterous goofballs you worked with in the beginning will become great stories, no matter how maddening and painful it seems at the time.

There's not only a cameraderie, there's a recognition of where the limits are in this amorphous process of making a living in and around music-- what things to fight for and what to let slide gracefully, how to keep a human touch, the importance of trusting and respecting others. I went (gratis!) to a Shad O'Shea seminar once, and of the whole day of pep talks and war stories, the one thing that made the greatest impression was Sheldon Starke, attorney, and his plaintive summation, which rang so true: "It's all about people."

Sqye · 25th May 2008, 03:16 AM

.

i have one question for you:

Is E = M c^2 a sexed equation? Perhaps it is. Let us make the hypothesis that it is in so far as it privileges the speed of light over other speeds that are vitally necessary to us. What seems to me to indicate the possibly sexed nature of the equation is not directly its uses by nuclear weapons, rather it is having privileged what goes the fastest.

Chowk: Books Arts & Culture: Book: Fashionable Nonsense: Postmodern Intellectuals` Abuse of Science

cheers and good luck - just remember every once in a while to ask yourself the question,

"are we having fun, yet?"

and you'll probably do great.

oh, and go visit joel - he's a great guy.

hey, joel...

.

vixapphire · 25th May 2008, 04:10 AM

Nuclear weapons? Of all the racist things to say...

[just a tip of the lampshade to irreverent irrelevance]

On the note of jobs and such, were I just graduating and entering the job market now, and single and unburdened to boot, I would also think beyond the borders. This may sound ridiculous or stupid, but consider as an example the UAE/Dubai, where there is a lot of high-end monied interest and the infrastructure build that's happening there is beyond belief. All those people and corporations will be requiring something in the form of entertainment and entertainment/technical services support, whether it be running night clubs or recording/a-v post studios. A lot of the world's elite's money is going to that little place right now, and I know people who are doing very well there who came to town with little in their pockets. There are a lot of opportunities in places like that to consider, particularly in a time when there are fewer of them more locally.

Just a strange idea I had about a year ago while in agony at my former job. YMMV.

vic

Micksandy · 25th May 2008, 07:01 AM

good stuff guys. i very much appreciate your candor and great insight.
i feel like i have been doing this my entire life since music (not just chugging down the street with an ipod) and the entire design of production and bringing to the light of day, the all encompassing gift of sound makes me happy beyond comprehension.....cuz it really does. It's all I think about.
I really need a hobby.
this is good stuff. I will take heed all of this and hope to, one day, share the story of complete moron musicians and marginally sane record people to all of you on these forums in a couple years. The UAE thing is not a bad idea.
I, in the short run, want to make enough money to pay for studio stuff, so I'm not that picky about what I do....as long as it pays.
Well, this forum will be close at hand for me and the site altogether.
Hell, I think I'm gonna visit Joel now...

.
Cheers

dan p · 25th May 2008, 05:01 PM

I also know people who have gone to UAE.Oil means lots of $ to play with.Sounds good until Fanatics start blow themselves up,one could only guess when that is going to happen. I will say all the comments from everyone here are spot on.If you are passionate about this biz and it sounds like you are,there is a place for you.
i've managed to have a career in this biz,not bad for a 50 yr old guy.
This field is changing fast so diversify is the key to making it all happen.
Good Luck Ay.

DAn P

Henchman · 25th May 2008, 05:41 PM

Well, I guess I'll be the negative one here.
Coming out of Audio school at 37, is going to be pretty hard to get any kind of job doing music for a living.
In fact, I don't recommend anyone going to a recording achool anymore to become a music engineer.
You will definitely have to look outside of canada, but getting a work visa is goign to prove to be very difficult.

My suggestion would be to go back to what you were doing, and do music on the side untill it takes off.
Or, start thinking about Post. But hoping to find an even decent paying job doing music, is pretty much not going to happen.

And remeber, you can always quit when something does pop up. In the meantime, your bills are getting paid, and you can buy gear.

And yeah, the UAE is a good place to look. Especially if you want to make some money, and get experience.

And the talented band your talking about, that refuses to try anything different, well, forget them. As they obviously
are too arrogant to accept advice. So, they'll either go nowhere, and you'll put a lot of effort in for free. Or they'll screw you if somehtingdoes happen.
Trust me. I know the type.

But, if you have the option, bail on Canada and go to the UK or the US.

Micksandy · 26th May 2008, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

Well, I guess I'll be the negative one here.
Coming out of Audio school at 37, is going to be pretty hard to get any kind of job doing music for a living.
In fact, I don't recommend anyone going to a recording achool anymore to become a music engineer.
You will definitely have to look outside of canada, but getting a work visa is goign to prove to be very difficult.

My suggestion would be to go back to what you were doing, and do music on the side untill it takes off.
Or, start thinking about Post. But hoping to find an even decent paying job doing music, is pretty much not going to happen.

And remeber, you can always quit when something does pop up. In the meantime, your bills are getting paid, and you can buy gear.

And yeah, the UAE is a good place to look. Especially if you want to make some money, and get experience.

And the talented band your talking about, that refuses to try anything different, well, forget them. As they obviously
are too arrogant to accept advice. So, they'll either go nowhere, and you'll put a lot of effort in for free. Or they'll screw you if somehtingdoes happen.
Trust me. I know the type.

But, if you have the option, bail on Canada and go to the UK or the US.

yeah, i'd jet outta canada in a heartbeat but being 37 doesnt seem to be a bad thing. I look 30 and behave younger...

. This is just an accredited certificate, not the first time i actually enter a studio at 37. I've been editing for a long time now and mixing for quite some time....however i know what you mean and actually don't plan on waiting for a dream job to land in my lap, instead I'll go back to corporate sales headaches to make sure that I am well off and purchasing equipment. I'll slowly acquire little by little until I am satisfied and maybe tweak a website to keep doing radio imaging, sweepers and radio ads for a few bucks here and there, although the high octane cheesy concert promos get old fast but they are money. As long as I can live in my own bubble under my own terms, that's fine with me. Life's what you make it and as the buddhist's say.....the journey changes the idea.

btw, i am not endorsing anyone taking these audio school courses because for the most part, they are far too vague in curriculum and far too expensive, but the only other option is to beg a studio engineer everyday for years until he gives in....to allow me to learn from him. I didnt have much choice. I am planning a few months in the UK next year to feel out the work over there. I'll check out Dubai, UAE also (damn, is it really a "dry" country?? no booze??)

BTP · 26th May 2008, 08:24 AM

I would focus on post or game audio if I were you.
Simply put together a 10 minute reel of songs, sound design and re-sound designed spotted video clips.

Then put them on a CD and add a nice CD leaflet with all your info and send them out to every job listing you can find.

btw - if you can get a copy of audiokinetic Wwise off the net and spend a good few months learning it it would def look good on a resume'.

here's a start:

Gamasutra - Jobs

have fun.

Micksandy · 26th May 2008, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTP

I would focus on post or game audio if I were you.
Simply put together a 10 minute reel of songs, sound design and re-sound designed spotted video clips.

Then put them on a CD and add a nice CD leaflet with all your info and send them out to every job listing you can find.

btw - if you can get a copy of audiokinetic Wwise off the net and spend a good few months learning it it would def look good on a resume'.

here's a start:

Gamasutra - Jobs

have fun.

Cheers. I realize that the gaming industry trumps the film and music industry for sheer profitability and having Ubisoft two blocks from where I sleep should be a sign but I'm so stubborn on the music thing but I'm also, not stupid and will definitely look into it. I have Wwise on my workstation at home but spent no time playing with it. I had a short class with the developer of Wwise who worked, formerly, for Ubisoft. Well, maybe I'll just try and do it all and see what the net captures. Maybe I'll just move to Nashville and beg a studio to let me work there....maybe I'll stop being so stubborn and learn french fluently and try to work in Montreal or maybe just go back to sales.

narcoman · 26th May 2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BTP

I would focus on post or game audio if I were you.
Simply put together a 10 minute reel of songs, sound design and re-sound designed spotted video clips.

Then put them on a CD and add a nice CD leaflet with all your info and send them out to every job listing you can find.

btw - if you can get a copy of audiokinetic Wwise off the net and spend a good few months learning it it would def look good on a resume'.

here's a start:

Gamasutra - Jobs

have fun.

I wouldnt.

Game audio has hit its peak - we're slightly in decline at the mo'

I'd look at the new HD media production outfits. that's where the action is.

Henchman · 26th May 2008, 06:25 PM

Well, you can eb stubborn, but I know music guys with tons of exeprience, conenctions and credits who are happy when they can get a steady gig making $300-, for a 10-12 hour day.

Micksandy · 26th May 2008, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

Well, you can eb stubborn, but I know music guys with tons of exeprience, conenctions and credits who are happy when they can get a steady gig making $300-, for a 10-12 hour day.

well, as much as I'm not defeatist......looks like I've come full circle from the start of the thread and thinking that, possibly, I just blew 20K on a waste of time and might have to go back to working in hell to make a few bucks.
I should have used that money for a business course and shlep as a finance guy or marketing monkey and dwindle the time away.
Figuratively, it's kinda like being told there is no antidote for the poison i took.

Henchman · 26th May 2008, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micksandy

well, as much as I'm not defeatist......looks like I've come full circle from the start of the thread and thinking that, possibly, I just blew 20K on a waste of time and might have to go back to working in hell to make a few bucks.
I should have used that money for a business course and shlep as a finance guy or marketing monkey and dwindle the time away.
Figuratively, it's kinda like being told there is no antidote for the poison i took.

Unfortunately, This is true.
I discourage anyone who asks form spending that kind of dough to learn about audio-engineering.
If it was a course that was say 8-10K to learn the important stuff. And that means timecode, Post, and everything that's related to it.
I mean, I used to teach at one of the recordign schools in Vancouver, and you can only teach someone so many ways to mic up a drumkit.

My suggestion, use your experience at your "regular" job, and get a job in a much larger market. London, LA, somewhere like that. Then start doing music on the side etc.
It will be easier to get somethign going in a place where there's more opportunities.

Micksandy · 27th May 2008, 12:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Henchman

Unfortunately, This is true.
I discourage anyone who asks form spending that kind of dough to learn about audio-engineering.
If it was a course that was say 8-10K to learn the important stuff. And that means timecode, Post, and everything that's related to it.
I mean, I used to teach at one of the recordign schools in Vancouver, and you can only teach someone so many ways to mic up a drumkit.

My suggestion, use your experience at your "regular" job, and get a job in a much larger market. London, LA, somewhere like that. Then start doing music on the side etc.
It will be easier to get somethign going in a place where there's more opportunities.

part of it was timecode, much post and everything around it. just that, unfortunately, they cover too much and don't focus on a few really important things, I think. The curriculum is quite broad. I'll just do what I can and report back with good news at some point, I hope.

picksail · 27th May 2008, 12:14 AM

Henchman is totally on point in his advice.

As harsh as it seems he is telling the truth and I respect that.

By the way Henchman, congrats on all the good fortune since your move out here. Hope you guys are enjoying the new house!

lowfreq33 · 27th May 2008, 12:40 AM

Quickest way to make some money is to get into live sound. It's hard work, but there are lots of jobs. Dubai, UAE is indeed a good place to look, try a company called Gearhouse, they do all the big shows there, and you get your housing paid for if I'm not mistaken.

Henchman · 27th May 2008, 01:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by picksail

Henchman is totally on point in his advice.

As harsh as it seems he is telling the truth and I respect that.

By the way Henchman, congrats on all the good fortune since your move out here. Hope you guys are enjoying the new house!

Thanks Picksail.
Yes, we're loving the new house.
I have zero regrets on the move.
Especially since crime is out of control in Vancouver.

Murder rate doubles across Lower Mainland

Cosmic Closet · 28th May 2008, 02:15 AM

Since people keep mentioning Dubai, a couple of things. I have been there twice
so:

By now, there's probably as much money in Dubai as in many other major cities put together. The place is growing at a speed that defies description, with dedicated areas called 'cities' for media, banking, IT, et. cetera.
The tallest building in the world is about finished. So is the tallest hotel...

Their self-published goal is to become the most powerful city on earth, in terms of international money, influence and tourism.

And it is definitely not 'dry' in the Saudi vein. In fact it is one hell of a party town.
Expensive to stay in, but you could probably guess that....

Claus

vixapphire · 28th May 2008, 06:49 AM

I forgot to mention in the original "Dubai/UAE" comment that started the avalanche here, that one of the true benefits (somewhat neutralized by the cost of living delta) is the fact that Dubai/UAE has no income taxes. I noticed in some cursory despair-era online job site trolling that firms over there pay the same wages as big firms in the USA (I'm talking about lawyers here, so extrapolate (or not) at your own risk); however, without the income tax hit you'd be looking at an immediate approximately 25-50% increase in earnings.

Not a bad way to go, for a few years of socking away the dough, at least. Lots of exotic beautiful women over there too, if that's something you think about.

Drumhum · 1st June 2008, 04:56 PM

Micksandy,

Lets get realistic here. Does the job you're after really exist?

I'm guessing you want to earn money from sitting in studios recording music and getting paid. It will have to be music you like as recording Country every day will soon write you off if your bag is death metal! The money has to be there too of course. At our age (I'm approaching 40 too fast!) now that we've done a few things and bought a fair few t-shits, we can't help but think about the sustaining things in life like where we sleep (and with who!). Perhaps we differ a bit but as I grow older I feel hanging out with some superstar muso/singer isn't worth much if I'm having to sleep in my car every night lol.

"wanted - sound engineer to record major label artists. Expect to provide artistic input and be a highly valued member of the production team. salary circa $40,000".

Those ads simply do not exist because the jobs don't exist! The cool jobs are done by freelance engineers. How to be freelance with the best jobs is the great un-answered question - every freelance out there will probably have a different story.

I'd say the best you can do is to think "what would make me happy now". Be honest with yourself, life is too short to be constantly making do while you prepare for a better future.

I made a compromise with my music ambitions by going into TV sound recording (non music). I get to be around creative, interesting people, play with sound gear and gain respect for my craft. As I also wear a composer's hat from time to time I am in a great position to meet potential music commissioners in the form of TV directors and producers. Its all working well for me so far. If I could do music 100% I would and I still strive for this. in the mean time I'm having some great times. I feel financially solvent and am enjoying the freedom that that brings.

Whatever happens make sure you end up doing something that makes you happy. I believe being a happy chap with a spring in the step brings more opportunities than being a dogged fellow determined not to compromise.

The very best of luck to you.

Micksandy · 13th June 2008, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drumhum

Micksandy,

Lets get realistic here. Does the job you're after really exist?

I'm guessing you want to earn money from sitting in studios recording music and getting paid. It will have to be music you like as recording Country every day will soon write you off if your bag is death metal! The money has to be there too of course. At our age (I'm approaching 40 too fast!) now that we've done a few things and bought a fair few t-shits, we can't help but think about the sustaining things in life like where we sleep (and with who!). Perhaps we differ a bit but as I grow older I feel hanging out with some superstar muso/singer isn't worth much if I'm having to sleep in my car every night lol.

"wanted - sound engineer to record major label artists. Expect to provide artistic input and be a highly valued member of the production team. salary circa $40,000".

Those ads simply do not exist because the jobs don't exist! The cool jobs are done by freelance engineers. How to be freelance with the best jobs is the great un-answered question - every freelance out there will probably have a different story.

I'd say the best you can do is to think "what would make me happy now". Be honest with yourself, life is too short to be constantly making do while you prepare for a better future.

I made a compromise with my music ambitions by going into TV sound recording (non music). I get to be around creative, interesting people, play with sound gear and gain respect for my craft. As I also wear a composer's hat from time to time I am in a great position to meet potential music commissioners in the form of TV directors and producers. Its all working well for me so far. If I could do music 100% I would and I still strive for this. in the mean time I'm having some great times. I feel financially solvent and am enjoying the freedom that that brings.

Whatever happens make sure you end up doing something that makes you happy. I believe being a happy chap with a spring in the step brings more opportunities than being a dogged fellow determined not to compromise.

The very best of luck to you.

well, i currently produce a syndicated country music two hour radio show called The Driver Show for American and Canadian markets (one show for each). It's a weekly show and I'm very very good at it. It just doesnt pay that much. My true desire is to be a mixing engineer. I am heading down to Nashville in August to scope out things. I'll hopefully use my father's dying contacts from his time as a producer in Nashville in the 80's although I realize this is like going to Hollywood to scope out director jobs and my chances are extremely slim to even get IN a studio as an apprentice's gopher. I am not really into country being more of a brit pop/rock guy. But I'd trade in my Muse for George Strait or G Unit or Slayer anyday if it means that I get to do WHAT I love rather than do do WHO I love. In the beginning, I'll take anything and enjoy it as long as it is a rung, bottom or top, on the ladder to my destination.
I have no problem with any type of music. My ear is boundless. I am happier now (and poor as sh*t) than I've ever been because I'm following what I love. Thanks for the well wishes. I won't let anything get me down as long as I have ideas and the love for production which will never go away. If opportunity is not found, I'll create it.

Drumhum · 14th June 2008, 03:41 PM

With an attitude like that I can't see how you can fail.

Micksandy · 25th July 2008, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixapphire

Nuclear weapons? Of all the racist things to say...

[just a tip of the lampshade to irreverent irrelevance]

On the note of jobs and such, were I just graduating and entering the job market now, and single and unburdened to boot, I would also think beyond the borders. This may sound ridiculous or stupid, but consider as an example the UAE/Dubai, where there is a lot of high-end monied interest and the infrastructure build that's happening there is beyond belief. All those people and corporations will be requiring something in the form of entertainment and entertainment/technical services support, whether it be running night clubs or recording/a-v post studios. A lot of the world's elite's money is going to that little place right now, and I know people who are doing very well there who came to town with little in their pockets. There are a lot of opportunities in places like that to consider, particularly in a time when there are fewer of them more locally.

Just a strange idea I had about a year ago while in agony at my former job. YMMV.

vic

since this thread months ago..

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This Industry!	Killah_Trakz	Work in progress / advice requested / Show & Tell / Artist showcase	0	6th February 2006 03:07 AM

24th May 2008, 12:48 AM	#1
Micksandy Gear interested Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 19	A future in this industry ok, i'll shoot from the hip. I'm not sure that this is a "moan" but here goes. I'm finishing up my sound engineering intensive one year training and graduating in a couple of months as a full fledged sound engineer trained in recording, sequencing, mixing, mastering etc. and I am a little more than worried. I spend much of the time, when not working on school projects and a syndicated radio show that I have produced now for two years for an extremely small two man company based out of Nashville with no money......searching for work, contacts, leads, advice....anything that will help me land anything after this is complete. I'm not just a wet behind the ears student. Well, maybe a little...but I have been living and breathing music and production since as long as I can remember...just now I decided to get the formal study for it and I realize the true schooling come when you work under someone successful, wise and knowledgeable. I remember working in restaurants and seeing guys fresh out of cooking school being turned away for the dishwashers with no formal culinary education turning into chefs. I am hearing a lot of the "feast or famine" talk. I left corporate sales where I was doing fairly well but really really despised my job and decided to that it wasnt worth the constant negativity suiting up each day merging into the daily sales rat race and and decided to go into audio since I have been splicing tapes and mixing music since I was a kid. I'm 37 and many have been saying that most studios have apprentices working for free and even the most studios have guys making a little money here and there. I usually respond with "well, I love music, I love making music so I'd rather be poor living within my passion bubble than making very good money surrounded by bad energy in something that I have no desire to do while slowly waltzing to my death bed with regrets".....but I'm getting a little bit afraid now thinking that come August, I'll be wandering the streets competing like a wannabe actor waiting tables in L.A. Especially since 20K in debt from one year of school is gonna haunt my finances for some time to come. I live in Montreal and although the industry is pretty good here for music, there is no way that I can get a job without 1) being fluent french which would take me years to obtain and 2) not being a true montrealer which, apparently, seems to be a private behind the scenes prerequisite in this city (don't get me wrong....I love this city very much). Is the outlook that grim for an newbie in the industry? As far as finding work, although I am not happy that I don't have a family at my age yet, I am lucky to have the ability to be nomadic and go anywhere...but to be honest, I search the internet for jobs constantly and most of the search results are for schools looking for students and others like me looking for studio jobs. I'm willing to pay my dues but I don't know the first place to start in this crusade for audio work. I wouldnt even have a long established resume since the only resume work I can put on is producing a radio show for two years with no studio work other than projects within the school. I am certain that this is a regular forum entry but I will take any (serious) advice or tips if any of you established folks can dish any out. Sorry for the long drawn out whine...but I had to take a chance and tap the brains of those who have made it or are achieving what they sought out to do, even to a degree. Cheers MM

24th May 2008, 01:51 AM	#2
joelpatterson Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Albany, New York Posts: 3,250	First: I would never advise anyone to follow my example (build a studio and hope someone came.) It was never pre-ordained that it would work out-- I feel like I am living one of the scenarios when it did-- equally possible are alternate universes where it didn't. But, you know the one thing I could have used alot more of, just growing up and making my way in the world in general? Alot more confidence in myself. Looking back, I was far too maleable to other people's advice and steering me in directions that just weren't right for me. Well-meaning as it all was. And a little reservior of fearfulness in myself made me listen to this advice, and 'play it safe,' when that was about the worst possible thing I could have done. You should forget the 'getting a job' angle, and watch for the 'getting in on some action' angle. Make yourself a part of some band's or some concert hall's career. And, take it for me-- you're a genius, people will be so glad they met you and you agreed to work with them. And don't take anyone's advice too seriously. You'll thank me for this someday. __________________ Mountaintop Studios ~the peak of perfection~ Petersburgh NY 12138 mountaintop@taconic.net

25th May 2008, 02:29 AM	#5
joelpatterson Lives for gear Join Date: May 2005 Location: Albany, New York Posts: 3,250	And another thing-- if you survive in this industry, you end up working with people who have also survived-- all the preposterous goofballs you worked with in the beginning will become great stories, no matter how maddening and painful it seems at the time. There's not only a cameraderie, there's a recognition of where the limits are in this amorphous process of making a living in and around music-- what things to fight for and what to let slide gracefully, how to keep a human touch, the importance of trusting and respecting others. I went (gratis!) to a Shad O'Shea seminar once, and of the whole day of pep talks and war stories, the one thing that made the greatest impression was Sheldon Starke, attorney, and his plaintive summation, which rang so true: "It's all about people." __________________ Mountaintop Studios ~the peak of perfection~ Petersburgh NY 12138 mountaintop@taconic.net

25th May 2008, 03:16 AM	#6
Sqye Lives for gear Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: undergound railroad Posts: 5,494	. i have one question for you: Is E = M c^2 a sexed equation? Perhaps it is. Let us make the hypothesis that it is in so far as it privileges the speed of light over other speeds that are vitally necessary to us. What seems to me to indicate the possibly sexed nature of the equation is not directly its uses by nuclear weapons, rather it is having privileged what goes the fastest. Chowk: Books Arts & Culture: Book: Fashionable Nonsense: Postmodern Intellectuals` Abuse of Science cheers and good luck - just remember every once in a while to ask yourself the question, "are we having fun, yet?" and you'll probably do great. oh, and go visit joel - he's a great guy. hey, joel... . __________________ Sqye (sky) *wired planet new music CREDITS link directly above ipod player *wired planet *fallen planet "he who is the author of a war lets loose the whole contagion of hell and opens a vein that bleeds a nation to death" .... Thomas Paine

24th May 2008, 10:17 PM	#4
dropblacksky Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 363	I'm not going to lie and say that it's an easy thing to get into. There's a ton of competition out there...and a lot of Audio school grads doing nada. I think the fact that you're older with work experience can give you an advantage in the market. You're going to fit in better with the people who hold positions in the industry and they'll see you more as a peer than some wet behind the ears intern. My main advice would be to diversify your work. I'm not sure what your program covered...but there can be lots of audio related work to be had. I graduated from a larger (and more expensive) audio school last August, and I've worked on a couple major motion pictures, I edit audiobooks on the side, and I work for a producer in his project studio full time. I never cleaned toilets for free, and I make a decent living wage that builds as I take on more and different projects...so it can work even when you're just starting out. Stay positive, nurture your contacts, diversify your work, and focus more on connecting with artists and projects as opposed to facilities and you can make it happen for yourself.

25th May 2008, 04:10 AM	#7
vixapphire Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,978	Nuclear weapons? Of all the racist things to say... [just a tip of the lampshade to irreverent irrelevance] On the note of jobs and such, were I just graduating and entering the job market now, and single and unburdened to boot, I would also think beyond the borders. This may sound ridiculous or stupid, but consider as an example the UAE/Dubai, where there is a lot of high-end monied interest and the infrastructure build that's happening there is beyond belief. All those people and corporations will be requiring something in the form of entertainment and entertainment/technical services support, whether it be running night clubs or recording/a-v post studios. A lot of the world's elite's money is going to that little place right now, and I know people who are doing very well there who came to town with little in their pockets. There are a lot of opportunities in places like that to consider, particularly in a time when there are fewer of them more locally. Just a strange idea I had about a year ago while in agony at my former job. YMMV. vic __________________ ___________________________________ "Revolution is the opiate of intellectuals." - Anon.

25th May 2008, 07:01 AM	#8
Micksandy Gear interested Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Montreal Posts: 19	good stuff guys. i very much appreciate your candor and great insight. i feel like i have been doing this my entire life since music (not just chugging down the street with an ipod) and the entire design of production and bringing to the light of day, the all encompassing gift of sound makes me happy beyond comprehension.....cuz it really does. It's all I think about. I really need a hobby. this is good stuff. I will take heed all of this and hope to, one day, share the story of complete moron musicians and marginally sane record people to all of you on these forums in a couple years. The UAE thing is not a bad idea. I, in the short run, want to make enough money to pay for studio stuff, so I'm not that picky about what I do....as long as it pays. Well, this forum will be close at hand for me and the site altogether. Hell, I think I'm gonna visit Joel now... . Cheers

25th May 2008, 05:01 PM	#9
dan p Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: san ramon ca Posts: 553	I also know people who have gone to UAE.Oil means lots of $ to play with.Sounds good until Fanatics start blow themselves up,one could only guess when that is going to happen. I will say all the comments from everyone here are spot on.If you are passionate about this biz and it sounds like you are,there is a place for you. i've managed to have a career in this biz,not bad for a 50 yr old guy. This field is changing fast so diversify is the key to making it all happen. Good Luck Ay. DAn P

25th May 2008, 05:41 PM	#10
Henchman Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: LA, USA Posts: 3,601	Well, I guess I'll be the negative one here. Coming out of Audio school at 37, is going to be pretty hard to get any kind of job doing music for a living. In fact, I don't recommend anyone going to a recording achool anymore to become a music engineer. You will definitely have to look outside of canada, but getting a work visa is goign to prove to be very difficult. My suggestion would be to go back to what you were doing, and do music on the side untill it takes off. Or, start thinking about Post. But hoping to find an even decent paying job doing music, is pretty much not going to happen. And remeber, you can always quit when something does pop up. In the meantime, your bills are getting paid, and you can buy gear. And yeah, the UAE is a good place to look. Especially if you want to make some money, and get experience. And the talented band your talking about, that refuses to try anything different, well, forget them. As they obviously are too arrogant to accept advice. So, they'll either go nowhere, and you'll put a lot of effort in for free. Or they'll screw you if somehtingdoes happen. Trust me. I know the type. But, if you have the option, bail on Canada and go to the UK or the US. __________________ www.markhensley.tv IMDB Credits

26th May 2008, 08:24 AM	#12
BTP Gear Head Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 39	I would focus on post or game audio if I were you. Simply put together a 10 minute reel of songs, sound design and re-sound designed spotted video clips. Then put them on a CD and add a nice CD leaflet with all your info and send them out to every job listing you can find. btw - if you can get a copy of audiokinetic Wwise off the net and spend a good few months learning it it would def look good on a resume'. here's a start: Gamasutra - Jobs have fun. __________________ http://www.wikiaudio.org

26th May 2008, 06:25 PM	#15
Henchman Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: LA, USA Posts: 3,601	Well, you can eb stubborn, but I know music guys with tons of exeprience, conenctions and credits who are happy when they can get a steady gig making $300-, for a 10-12 hour day. __________________ www.markhensley.tv IMDB Credits

27th May 2008, 12:14 AM	#19
picksail Lives for gear Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Hollywood Posts: 3,257	Henchman is totally on point in his advice. As harsh as it seems he is telling the truth and I respect that. By the way Henchman, congrats on all the good fortune since your move out here. Hope you guys are enjoying the new house! __________________ Stewart Cararas Seventh Level Productions Myspace Profile Discogs _________________________________ The new is necessarily abstract - Rudolf Borchadt

27th May 2008, 12:40 AM	#20
lowfreq33 Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Nashville, TN Posts: 1,890	Quickest way to make some money is to get into live sound. It's hard work, but there are lots of jobs. Dubai, UAE is indeed a good place to look, try a company called Gearhouse, they do all the big shows there, and you get your housing paid for if I'm not mistaken. __________________ Is Wayne Brady gonna have to choke a bitch?!

28th May 2008, 02:15 AM	#22
Cosmic Closet Gear maniac Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 183	Since people keep mentioning Dubai, a couple of things. I have been there twice so: By now, there's probably as much money in Dubai as in many other major cities put together. The place is growing at a speed that defies description, with dedicated areas called 'cities' for media, banking, IT, et. cetera. The tallest building in the world is about finished. So is the tallest hotel... Their self-published goal is to become the most powerful city on earth, in terms of international money, influence and tourism. And it is definitely not 'dry' in the Saudi vein. In fact it is one hell of a party town. Expensive to stay in, but you could probably guess that.... Claus __________________ CC

28th May 2008, 06:49 AM	#23
vixapphire Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,978	I forgot to mention in the original "Dubai/UAE" comment that started the avalanche here, that one of the true benefits (somewhat neutralized by the cost of living delta) is the fact that Dubai/UAE has no income taxes. I noticed in some cursory despair-era online job site trolling that firms over there pay the same wages as big firms in the USA (I'm talking about lawyers here, so extrapolate (or not) at your own risk); however, without the income tax hit you'd be looking at an immediate approximately 25-50% increase in earnings. Not a bad way to go, for a few years of socking away the dough, at least. Lots of exotic beautiful women over there too, if that's something you think about. __________________ ___________________________________ "Revolution is the opiate of intellectuals." - Anon.

1st June 2008, 04:56 PM	#24
Drumhum Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 96	Micksandy, Lets get realistic here. Does the job you're after really exist? I'm guessing you want to earn money from sitting in studios recording music and getting paid. It will have to be music you like as recording Country every day will soon write you off if your bag is death metal! The money has to be there too of course. At our age (I'm approaching 40 too fast!) now that we've done a few things and bought a fair few t-shits, we can't help but think about the sustaining things in life like where we sleep (and with who!). Perhaps we differ a bit but as I grow older I feel hanging out with some superstar muso/singer isn't worth much if I'm having to sleep in my car every night lol. "wanted - sound engineer to record major label artists. Expect to provide artistic input and be a highly valued member of the production team. salary circa $40,000". Those ads simply do not exist because the jobs don't exist! The cool jobs are done by freelance engineers. How to be freelance with the best jobs is the great un-answered question - every freelance out there will probably have a different story. I'd say the best you can do is to think "what would make me happy now". Be honest with yourself, life is too short to be constantly making do while you prepare for a better future. I made a compromise with my music ambitions by going into TV sound recording (non music). I get to be around creative, interesting people, play with sound gear and gain respect for my craft. As I also wear a composer's hat from time to time I am in a great position to meet potential music commissioners in the form of TV directors and producers. Its all working well for me so far. If I could do music 100% I would and I still strive for this. in the mean time I'm having some great times. I feel financially solvent and am enjoying the freedom that that brings. Whatever happens make sure you end up doing something that makes you happy. I believe being a happy chap with a spring in the step brings more opportunities than being a dogged fellow determined not to compromise. The very best of luck to you.

14th June 2008, 03:41 PM	#26
Drumhum Gear nut Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: UK Posts: 96	With an attitude like that I can't see how you can fail.