Making a Hit Album with cheaper Equipment: Is Recording Equipment Over Priced?

[JOHN]

Making a Hit Album with cheaper equipment.

Hi Gear people,
Is recording equipment over priced
CD's were £16 now they are £5 and sound much better.

I have used an Se mic the 5600a mk11 which to me sounded better than a mic i tried costing £4000

I once compared a ADAT XT20 to an IZ Radar 24 and the adat sounded better than the IZ radar at 48khz the adat was also only 20bit.

I used once a TLA 5051 mic pre comp eq and that sounded as good as a summit

FOSTEX D2424LV 24 Track HD 96hkz 24bit £859.99
Se Z5600a II was only £450
ADART XT 20 only £300
TLA audio 5051 only £400
BEHRINGER BCF2000 USB/Midi Controller Desk With 8 Motorized Faders £145.99
Behringer MX9000 48/24-Channel 8-Bus Inline Mixing Console £932.99

U47 copies clones £4000
IZ Radar V £14000
AMS NEVE STEREO 1081 MODULE £6,999.00
MACKIE CONTROL UNIVERSAL PRO £935.99
Mackie ONYX 4880 Mixing Console £4,849.99

If we can get the sound we want now days with cheaper equipment and make hit records why are the rest so expensive?
Many cheaper equipment made to day sounds as good if not better than thousand pound equipment.
Take Se microphones there now used by some of the top and best Artists / producers in the world who love them .
Take Lynx Aurora 16 and Aurora 8 AD/DA converters they go up to 192 khz and cheap also said to be the best Russ Long ( who uses IZ Radar 24 ) as ever heard beating out Radar converters when heard over 96khz and up.

So why is recording equipment costing so much when other manufacturers can do the same if not similar much cheaper?

Maybe this is why Rupert Neve has decided to make his new valve mic with Se.
What is your thoughts on all of this gear people?

I found this thread and photos of the inside of a TLM49 i am in shock that mic cost £1100 but in the photo looks like it should be only £150.
PSW Recording Forums: Whatever Works => Neumann TLM 67...why?

Cheers

[basho]

This kind of attitude really depresses me. Do you want all the people working to make professional audio equipment to earn as little as Chinese factory workers? If it sounds "better" or "good enough" to you, by all means. Just don't complain when it falls apart after 3 months use. Like Walter Sears said: You can't compete with free.

[JOHN]

Originally Posted by basho

This kind of attitude really depresses me. Do you want all the people working to make professional audio equipment to earn as little as Chinese factory workers? If it sounds "better" or "good enough" to you, by all means. Just don't complain when it falls apart after 3 months use. Like Walter Sears said: You can't compete with free.

I am sure you know as i do many top makers get their products made in china, who does not. Why is Rupert Neve one of the best person in the world of audio working with china

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by JOHN

I am sure you know as i do many top makers get their products made in china, who does not. Why is Rupert Neve one of the best person in the world of audio working with china

Because they backed a dumptruck full of money up to his door to convince him to do so, no doubt. And they can afford to do that because their labour is so cheap.

[basho]

Originally Posted by JOHN

I am sure you know as i do many top makers get their products made in china, who does not. Why is Rupert Neve one of the best person in the world of audio working with china

Because it's, erm, cheaper? Unfortunately the nature of his designs mean that they will still not be quite cheap enough for you. Don't worry though, TL Audio and Behringer will always be there for you!

[TomD]

I once compared a ADAT XT20 to an IZ Radar 24 and the adat sounded better than the IZ radar at 48khz the adat was also only 20bit.

I own two of those ADATS....they're sitting in my basement with the BRC. All due respect...get your hearing checked on this one....those machines were ok at the time...a lot of jingle guys used them because they were portable and the smpte/sync features were very good. But as soon as I heard 24bit...and I'm talking PT Mix not even HD...those machines were history. These days, Lynx or Apogee converters and PTHD are a mile above 20 bit ADATS. I'm not even sure that's a matter of opinion....

TD

[gainstages]

why do people buy a mercedes benz when they could buy a ford focus?

status? ego? pride? maybe. performance? quality? lasting value? absolutely. comfort? safety? the ability to just truly enjoy driving rather than merely go from one place to another? yeah, definitely.

so, if you don't like forking out the money for high end gear, don't. no one is forcing you.

aside from that, the costs of running a business and treating your employees well, and earning a reasonable (note i didn't say excessive) income are huge. add in all the insurance, marketing, research, taxes, and other costs and you can start to imagine why some of this gear is expensive.

In the United States, and many other countries, there are strict laws regulating much of this, and a great deal of legal expense to deal with it all.

China, and many other emerging countries, are not set up in the way we are. Employees can be paid much less, and recieve little to no benefits. research cost and taxes may be cheaper in some areas.

products built in the USA, Germany, the UK, and many other nations are generally going to be better quality, and more expensive than similar Chinese products. Even US companies making products that are in part manufactured or assembled in China, but also do marketing, quality control, and distribution in the US are likely to end up being more expensive.

It's easy to say that there are $10 in parts inside a microphone so why does it cost so much, well.... why don't you spend the next 40 years researching how these components interact with each other and then try to sell your work for little more than the cost of the parts. they have every right to mark it up to not only cover the obvious costs, but the investments into research and design.

Class A, point to point wiring, and quality components cost more than inferior designs and components. no brainer there.

But even more important is a quick lesson on the free markets - people can charge whatever they want for a product as long as people will buy it. Are companies making ridiculously huge profits on some of these products, YEAH! Cables and other "accessories" often have huge markups in them.

do i care if I have the money to buy it and it does what i want it to do?? maybe, maybe not. now, maybe if i really can't afford it, my thought process changes completely, but then i look at a cheaper product and guess what - it might have huge markups as well, but it is made with cheaper parts and cheaper manufacturing.


I use lots of cheaper gear, but I also value what a truly quality piece of equipment can do to my sound, on top of the fact that it may increase in value over time and will last for many many years if it is well built.

If you don't like forking out the money for high end gear, than don't. no one is making you. yeah, you can make great stuff with low end gear, so do it that way if thats what you want.

[JOHN]

If equipment is cheap and not made so well as people say, then why has BEHRINGER mixers sold close to one million units as they say on their website? is there one million idiots out there i don't think so.

I have heard a behringer mixer and is sounded amazing clear clean full and the built in 24 bit reverb was also excellent and well made with a solid feel

[Fletcher]

Recording equipment is definitely overpriced... ain't nobody ever walked down the street humming the mic-pre... right?

However... if the quality of the audio inspires a performer to perform better... or pleases the artist's ultimate sense of aesthetic then it's worth it... or not, depending on your perspective.

As for CD's running £16... you're paying WAY too much. I just picked up the new "Foxboro Hot Tubs" album at the HMV in Terminal 3 of Heathrow for £8.99... fantastic album... no idea how they recorded it... just glad they did.

Peace.

[Le Lab]

Hi Gear people,
Is recording equipment over priced
CD's were £16 now they are £5 and sound much better.

I don't agree. Because of the low cost of digital recording equipment (i.e. softwares) more and more musicians are now "producers" and "sound recording engineers" and "mix engineers".

Great for creativity and putting loads of CD's (music) on the internet and in stores...but......does it sound much better ???

Nope.... But great for You Tube on a laptop.

I still listen to Miles Davies recorded in 1958 in NYC with great Neumann microphones and it sounds much better than the lattest jazz indie album I bought last week...which was recorded in a cottage with software plug-ins and low-cost microphones...

Rock/pop music is the same....a lot of crap out there...So YES in terms of audio gear, you pay for what you get....Like food, A Big Mac is a Big Mac. A microwave oven in your home (studio) kitcheen will never equal a 5 star restaurant with real "tools" to cook..

Cheers

[basho]

Originally Posted by JOHN

If equipment is cheap and not made so well as people say, then why has BEHRINGER mixers sold close to one million units as they say on their website? is there one million idiots out there i don't think so.

I have heard a behringer mixer and is sounded amazing clear clean full and the built in 24 bit reverb was also excellent and well made with a solid feel

Good. Use it. Just don't ask why is it that the good folks who assemble Chandler equipment can't be put out of a job just so you can buy a made- in-China TG2 for $500. Please.

[gainstages]

Originally Posted by JOHN

If equipment is cheap and not made so well as people say, then why has BEHRINGER mixers sold close to one million units as they say on their website? is there one million idiots out there i don't think so.

I have heard a behringer mixer and is sounded amazing clear clean full and the built in 24 bit reverb was also excellent and well made with a solid feel

wow. this is really flawed logic. i'm not saying that they don't have gear that might be useful or sound good, but you can't really judge the quality of something by how many units they sell. all that tells you is that they have nailed a successful price point, marketing, and distribution strategy.

again, yeah, there is a lot of gear that has huge profits in it, but if you see value in what that gear does for you or your clients, than it is worth it. if you don't see the value, buy something else.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by JOHN

is there one million idiots out there i don't think so.

oh yes.....yes there is....some days I feel like I know them all personally....

[steelyfan]

I think that this is a great question, and the poster is just trying to find out if all of you high end guys would admit that, yes, you can make a great albulm with a $500 mic pre. My answer would be, with great ears, and some experience of how to place your $200 perception mic, through your "insert under home mortgage payment mic pre", on a kick, snare, amp, you can get great results. I don't think he wants to put all then high end manufacturers out of business, just a little feel good about not needing to be in ABBEY ROAd to make a good sounding record.
My experience, @ 5 years ago, i was asked to engineer at a fancy studio
in my home town, using this beautiful harrison console, they asked me
to particiapte because they heard this music i produced, using C1000's
as overhead mics (muffled with some silk fabric to cut any piercing highs),
and sm57's , and a beta 58 on everthing else. Going into a presonusfirepod
into cubase. I had some pluggins for comp. and e.q. I mixed the albulm on
creative pc speakers ($149). When i got to the session, I didn't know how to use a 8 bus board! And everytime they tried to get a tone sounding "highend" i was always like, uhhhh. could you cut the mids and highs.The music was tracked with some $3000 mics (which i couldn't identify, due to inexperience, and uneducated high end knowledge), and they should have used some 58's, because they keep trying to fix the high end air, and crispness.It just needed to sound smooth. They used the best, and got the worse. "It's a $3000 mic, it has to sound good!" ...sure. Just don't track so hot next time, i"d love to hear this mic used the right way.

[Duardo]

I have used an Se mic the 5600a mk11 which to me sounded better than a mic i tried costing £4000

We all know how you feel about Se. And there will always be situations where a particular cheap microphone may well be more appropriate than another more expensive microphone. I'm surprised we haven't already had a bunch of posts about Bono using an SM58, etc...

I once compared a ADAT XT20 to an IZ Radar 24 and the adat sounded better than the IZ radar at 48khz the adat was also only 20bit.

Sonic quality is always a subjective thing, but I think you're in the minority here. If you really thought it sounded better consider yourself lucky...

I think that this is a great question, and the poster is just trying to find out if all of you high end guys would admit that, yes, you can make a great albulm with a $500 mic pre.

I don't think that anyone would say that you couldn't. But that doesn't mean that, given the choice, those same people wouldn't work with better gear (although, as mentioned earlier, the most expensive piece isn't always the best choice in a specific application), and it certainly doesn't mean that the high-end gear on the market is overpriced. If it were (and sure, some of it is) then it wouldn't be selling (and some of it isn't).

[LaChunkyStudio]

In my humble opinion, most manufacturers of high-end or esoteric audio equipment are not in the business to get rich quickly. They build and sell the equipment because they are passionate about quality audio electronics and design. They know there will never be a huge market for a £3000 compressor and that will be lucky to shift more than a few hundred units worldwide. Design and build costs will barely be covered by sales. Nevertheless they take pride in the fact that this £3000 compressor will be cherished by its owner and will continue to work like a dream for many years to come - and maybe in a decade or so it will come to be known as a classic of its time. I have spoken to a few designers and salespeople involved in high-end audio manufacture and what comes across most is their unfettered enthusiasm for their product(s). Even when I was a third-hand owner asking for advice they were delighted to help me out despite there being no obvious profit in it for them.
Companies like B**ringer on the other hand are money-making machines - their shareholders demand it. Their equipment is built to a very tight margin in countries where labour rights are a dirty word. They use cheap components and rip off designs that relied on good components for optimum performance. Their gear is ok, does a job, but in the end, not near a professional standard.
My studio in Glasgow, though humble, is kitted out with some very nice pieces of kit that would definitely count as high-end. Therefore we charge a fair rate for our services and we get enough business to survive - much of it repeat or via word-of-mouth so we must be doing something right. However I constantly receive random email or phone queries for quotes from bands and when I quote our rate they promise to get back to me and never do. This is because there is going to be at least 10 other studios operating out of sheds, garages, bedrooms and other ideal acoustic environments where the owner can undercut our studio by 50% or more. These studios are invariably kitted out with "b**ringer mixers" or "s****n mic-pres" etc etc and this allows them to keep costs way down. Unfortunately there is nothing I can do about this, its a free country and anyone can set up a "studio" with whatever gear they can lay their hands on. However, we occasionally get clients coming in who have had very unpleasant experiences at these cut-price facilties and have ended up spending their money on a recording that they are wholly unhappy with. My consolation to them is that no-one leaves our studio without a huge smile on their face. Quality costs extra but is worth it in the end. Same go's for gear.

[JOHN]

The fact is people are getting top quality sound and build for there money at a much lower cost now today. There was a time when cheap equipment was bad and did not sound good but what i have tested sounds brilliant for the cost. take the rode K2 mic that mic is incredible sounding for the money £350 for the rode K2.
Many top million selling artist and producers also use cheap equipment and they rave about it.

Look at this man to many the best recording man in the world Bruce Swedien he has and uses more than 6 rode K2 mic's he can afford anything and sold over 400 million records
Brucie's Itinerant Microphones...

[steelyfan]

Yes, i think it's fantastic to own a piece of gear by a company who is just
commited to excellence, and to the passion to create something of quality for the recording artist. The few pieces that i own that fit that bill, have
"we love what we do" oozing from it's circuitry. It's a thrill and a pleasure
to work with.

[joeybaggadonuts]

so he has a few rode mics. big deal. he also had a shitload of neumman, altec, royer, akg, rca ribbons, and other "expensive" mics.

sure you can make a great resord with crappy gear. if the songs are good and the performance s good, you can make a great record on a fisher price cassete deck. but it could've sounded better.

[andychamp]

Originally Posted by joeybaggadonuts

(...)if the songs are good and the performance s good, you can make a great record on a fisher price cassete deck. but it could've sounded better.(...)

Today's a great day!
- I got past my 1000th GS post.
- I got my API550b.
- I just found a new great quote for my sig. file.

Thank you!

[nukmusic]

Well.. I wouldn't say most gear is over priced. But you can get great recordings from less expensive gear any day of the week if the engineer is capable.
Technology, Technology, Technology

[Enzo Polotso]

Bottom line is, it's all in the engineer, musicians, and the song. If all of the high end recording gear in the world disappeared tomorrow, who cares? it wouldn't be a big loss in the grand scheme of things.

[soentkensound]

[QUOTE=JOHN;2070168]Making a Hit Album with cheaper equipment.

Don't let anybody stop you.

[nickolo]

Ideas and people come before the kit for sure.People often ask why the records of the past sound so good etc..must be the cool analog gear..??no! sure it plays a part in sound colour but the real reason is the music scene-artists/musicians/engineers and studio culture of the time.I respect that way of doing things because it brings out a certain human interaction etc..The song/people/musicians/engineers come way before the gear and when gear was basic people had to make decisions on the spot with the tools not so called 'toys' and were not overwhelmed with possibilities..The cool thing with analog tape is really in the way it makes one work.Have your music rehearsed and ready to print and go for the moment.But the whole way records are made is changing and the cool rooms and spaces that people worked and hung out in are gone or closing down..Gear is cool and i agree that small companies that design great stuff for a minority need to price accordingly just to exist.
...and i do not believe china made stuff is all bad.They are manufacturing great designs and very well...

[Eric Greedy]

Originally Posted by JOHN

ts as they say on their website? is there one million idiots out there [?]

at least

What & When was the last hit you made with a behringer chain John?

[MyNameIsChris]

Originally Posted by JOHN

The fact is people are getting top quality sound and build for there money at a much lower cost now today. There was a time when cheap equipment was bad and did not sound good but what i have tested sounds brilliant for the cost. take the rode K2 mic that mic is incredible sounding for the money £350 for the rode K2.

Your argument makes no sense. If it works for you, great. The cheapest gear out there today tends to be (depending on your scale) somewhat decent. But not EVERYBODY is on the same "for-the-cost" plan that you are. Some people have the money to use whatever they like, and therefore they end use things that are more expensive. Even if the gain in audio quality (whatever the hell that means) is small in regards to the rise in price. It doesn't matter. Sometimes money doesn't matter. Sometimes you just want things to sound exactly how you want them to sound. That may be different for you than for me. Our budgets might be different too.

[James Meeker]

Everything comes down to application. More expensive doesn't make something better in every given situation; likewise, cheaper doesn't make it worse in every situation. Context. Flavor. Contrast. The wise engineer knows how to get the best out of any type of equipment for the situation they are in.

However, the gear doesn't make the record. People do.

Skill, style, performance, song writing and experience are what makes records sound great.

The studio is just where it happens. The gear is how it happens. The magic is in the performers and engineers that make it happen--the who, what and most importantly WHY.

In my book everything else is just splitting hairs or elitism: "oh, this album is great because I used pricey boutique stuff" or "oh, this album is great because I used crap." Both views are bollocks.

[Volodia]

Originally Posted by JOHN

The fact is people are getting top quality sound and build for there money at a much lower cost now today. There was a time when cheap equipment was bad and did not sound good but what i have tested sounds brilliant for the cost. take the rode K2 mic that mic is incredible sounding for the money £350 for the rode K2.
Many top million selling artist and producers also use cheap equipment and they rave about it.

Look at this man to many the best recording man in the world Bruce Swedien he has and uses more than 6 rode K2 mic's he can afford anything and sold over 400 million records
Brucie's Itinerant Microphones...

It's 3 Rodes K2 and 3 power supply . And check the rest of the list too !

[TobyToby]

Originally Posted by JOHN

Making a Hit Album with cheaper equipment.

Hi Gear people,
Is recording equipment over priced
CD's were £16 now they are £5 and sound much better.

I have used an Se mic the 5600a mk11 which to me sounded better than a mic i tried costing £4000 . . .

As an essential FIRST purchase, I strongly suggest a great pair of monitors (and a great studio amp if these are passive speaker ). This is the fundamental component for a basis of decision making & reaching a verdict.
Without this condition it easy comes to a debatable 'wholesale' opinion like here.

[Ibvee]

Bruce Swedien also has a few original U47s, RCA 44s etc. He knows what to use when, but I doubt he would make a record with just a K2. And he loves his 1084s when recording vocals... So I think that's a bad example.
And so is the Rupert Neve / sE example. sE isn't really 'low end' I would consider them more to be 'mid end'. And they have a perfectly fine factory in China which is their own. So no Aphex/Behringer/Alto all under one roof factory. And they are pretty picky about the quality. And I think that's also the reason why mr. Neve likes to work with them.
And I believe I've seen some 'not so low end'-prices from the new sE Neve stuff...


hmmm, sE Neve, could be an interesting subject for another thread.
Neve
AMS-Neve
SAE-Neve
Rupert Neve
Amek Neve
sE Neve
can't recall any others so far (except for Neve Campbell of course)