Telefunken AK-47 and Avant CV-12 the same mic??

[Arlo]

Originally Posted by drBill

China. Manufacturers can buy a generic design, change a few things to make it their own, and put it out.

Or they can buy the bodies and put whatever they want inside them

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by fuzz doctor joe

Those arguing for them have to admit there's something fishy about the similarities, even if it is just in looks. What i wanna get to the bottom of is; where are these companies getting their stuff? Cuz it's blatantly the same place! :p I think different companies are buying up what is essentially the Apex 460 (in basic form) and modding them along with a lick of paint.

Some companies may very well be doing exactly that [modding a 460 with a lick of paint] -- and TELEFUNKEN stupidly tried that for a minute 3-4 years before I started working at the company -- with near disastrous results.

The head baskets, internal struts / supports, body tubes, bottom bell housing are purchased from the same factory that builds a lot of stuff for a lot of "microphone manufacturers" [the steel body tube for the AR-51 is made from American steel in a Connecticut machine shop and finished by a company in Massachusetts that does a lot of finish work for the "fire arms" industry].

On the AK-47 mkII [it was just "mkII"ed in June] the output transformer is a very faithful recreation of the original Bv8 transformer. Taking over a year of time, we had originals exact copies of the originals built [by a California company] to a way higher tolerance than was previously built by our former supplier.

These new transformers test out not only closer to an original Bv8, but are more consistent from unit to unit, [did I mention they're from a company in California - so they ain't cheap]. The consistency of the output transformer does give us a bit of manufacturing cost savings as it is easier to tune the microphones to maintain a more consistent product upon release.

The AK-47 mkII still uses the NOS [New Old Stock] TELEFUNKEN EF-732 tube which is rather similar in size and function to the venerable AC-701 [which you will find in many of the finest "vintage Neumann" microphones].

The AR-51 is based on the electronics of the ELA M 251 E and AKG Acoustics C-12. It uses an output transformer called a T14/1 which is made by the original manufacturer from Germany called "Haufe" that made these transformers for the 251 E's and C-12's... from the original blueprints [damn good things these guys never throw anything out]

The amplifiers are made by underpaid US labor in Connecticut [hey - they'll get raises as soon as you guys buy more mics and we can afford it] on our purpose designed circuit boards [where we over spec'ed "current management" for better transient and low frequency response] that are also made in the United States. The tubes are NOS German or US [not Chinese or Russian].

The capsules are made offshore - but rigorously tested at the Connecticut facility to insure consistency from unit to unit [as many microphone manufacturers from Bock to Manley have been doing for well over a decade... this is nothing new by any stretch of the imagination, and has a proven track record when properly tested and implemented].

Peace.

[JTC111]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

The AK 47 is based on a Neumann U47 and the CV 12 is based on an AKG C12..two completely different animals.

The ADK Hamburg (47) and the Vienna( C12) are better,imho.

I have nothing bad to say about the other mics, but I've yet to be disappointed using any ADK mic. It would hard for anyone to convince me that AKD isn't one of the best dollar-for-dollar values out there for mics.

And while I'm giving out kudos, I sent my Blue Kiwi in for servicing after it took a header (dented grill) and Blue did right by me. The turnaround time was a bit long at 3 weeks, but the bill was $14. Amazing.

[joelpatterson]

"Overseas," like in an aeroplane circling high, hosting whale-watching parties and making sure they don't fly too close to the sun.

[Cyprien]

AvantC12 like apex 460 and many other mic use same bodies but with cheaper tube and transformer that's what makes the sound of these mics different...sometimes thryhave the same architecture..

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by phillysoulman

The AK 47 is based on a Neumann U47

Far from it.

The AK-47 [and now AK-47 mkII] employ a radically different tube than a U-47 which is more akin to the tube you will find in an M-49. The headbasket is closer in dimension to that of a C-12 and has a closer acoustic signature [from the headbasket acoustics] to the interaction that occurs between the capsule and the basket in a C-12 than anything U-47 related.

The microphone name came from the firearm... the model that preceded the release of the AK-47 was the [now discontinued] M-16 mkII [we won't talk about the ill fated M-16... OK?].

It is not a clone, it is not intended to be a clone, and it will never grow up to be a clone. The microphone is its own entity which should be judged on its own merits... not with a shovel trying to dig up things of the past.

We [the TELEFUNKEN "we"] do that with the Diamond Series which are as faithful recreations of historic microphones as is humanly possible with the technology currently available to the company.

The new AK-47 mkII employs a Bv8 output transformer [like an original U-47] because that transformer works better in the circuit than the previous transformer that was employed [after several circuit tweaks] and provides a clearer / larger low end to the mic... not because the mic is trying to be a U-47 clone.

Make sense?

[joelpatterson]

You were expecting what, an Indian princess?

[leftygibson]

I have a Avant CV12 sounds quite nice for price point /Chinese!! I replaced tube with NOS GE five Star…….now concidering transformer upgrade.. Any suggestions one person stated their father was going to try.

Would a original 50’s Haufe work? Siemens T165?
I was told Avant was buying CM 2480? Did Avant used to have that as a option?
I have been around 10-15k mics and no the CV12 does not sound like those vintage pieces. But only a chosen few C12's were magic. Alan Sides had only one he loved (Joni Mitchell and others used) It got lost in a fire never found another one of that sonic quality.
All said you can't beat it at that price.

[Michael_Joly]

Many folks have sent me their SDC Avantone mics to be modified (they're a basic MXL 603, CAD GXL1200, Nady CM-90 design), but today I saw my first CV12. Despite the lovely paint job and the chrome metalwork, the capsule, circuit and components are stock Chinese-factory stuff.

There are three important signal path capacitors that should be upgraded - the most surprising find was the important tube-to-transformer capacitor was a little polarized electrolytic job - every DIY'er whose been inside the Apex 460 has changed this cap to a large, non-polarized, high voltage Polypropylene type for better sound. The capsule is a standard 32mm K67-type with built-in 8kHz peak. It drives a flat response circuit without HF de-emphais. The K67 capsule has a HF boost that Neumann designed in as one part of a pre-emphasis / deemphasis headroom extension and sibilance reduction system - but it must be followed with the proper HF attenuation circuitry to have a proper timbre balance. The headbasket is constricted (as in the 460).

Despite how it sounds in its stock, right-from-the-Chinese-factory-form, I'll admit the Avantone CV12 is a handsome mic that comes with a nice box.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by leftygibson

But only a chosen few C12's were magic. Alan Sides had only one he loved (Joni Mitchell and others used) It got lost in a fire never found another one of that sonic quality.

I love "internet mythology"... the "Joni mic" was an ELA M 251 E which was rebuilt / reconditioned at TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik.

The capsule from that "fire destroyed" mic [along with the original AKG blueprints] is the basis for the current iteration [back plates, spacers; obviously not diaphragms or tensioning] of the CK-12 capsule which is built at the TELEFUNKEN Elektroakustik lab in Connecticut.

From what I understand [I was not with the company at that time], the microphone was restored to its original glory for Mr. Sides and he has been quite pleased with the results.

Peace.

[joelpatterson]

Funny, I have never seen a thread moved out of the Moan Zone to somewheres else. I wonder why that is...?

[drumdrumdrumdrum]

Originally Posted by Greener

Why would you name a microphone after a gun?

Hmmmm?

[Bullseye]

The capsules are made offshore - but rigorously tested at the Connecticut facility to insure consistency from unit to unit [as many microphone manufacturers from Bock to Manley have been doing for well over a decade... this is nothing new by any stretch of the imagination, and has a proven track record when properly tested and implemented].


What does "offshore" mean?

"Peace - Out" ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

[Bullseye]

oops, strike that "out" from the record......

[dbock]

Originally Posted by Bullseye

The capsules are made offshore - but rigorously tested at the Connecticut facility to insure consistency from unit to unit [as many microphone manufacturers from Bock to Manley have been doing for well over a decade... this is nothing new by any stretch of the imagination, and has a proven track record when properly tested and implemented].
What does "offshore" mean?
"Peace - Out" ?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Offshore for Bock capsules mostly means Germany.

[colbear]

I am going to cover this because it seems as though no one has yet.....

The Avantone CV-12 is 100% manufactured in china.
The Telefunken AK-47mkII is much different. It's not just a couple "mods," that make them different either. I will note the differences:
-The CV-12's circuit is based around a dual-triode 12ay7 tube. The tube is also a newly manufactured China tube with a low quality factor. The AK-47mkII's circuit is based around a small NOS pentode tube used as a triode. Therefore, aside from the obvious difference in price between a new china tube vs a NOS t-funk tube, the amplifier design is strawBERRY much different.(i.e. different component values and filter)
-Components in the CV-12's amplifier along with the phenolic board are also mass-produced and are of low quality standard. T-funk components are sourced from several places domestically and are of better material.(i.e. polystyrene caps which are more sonically pleasing and more rare to find these days)
-The CV-12 caters to it's own chinese transformer which is of a different turns ratio than the BV8 and is of a less pure core material. The BV8 in the AK-47mkII is a crimson transformer made domestically from pure material. Thus, you would need to asses the entire amplifier of the CV-12 and change it to fashion a BV8 in it.
-There is NO part of the AK-47mkII that ISN'T assembled in CT, USA therefore labor is a part of the cost, not to mention the rigorous testing.
-The power supplies run different filament voltages.
- The CV-12 has a pad and roll off which = more components which eventually = more noise ironically. lol.

Let me state I'm not bashing Avantone. You get what you pay for. In this case though, and I'll use a sweet tooth analogy. Let's say there are two ice cream shops, shop 1 has really inexpensive ice cream due to mass production, lower quality control, and inexpensive ingredients. Shop 2 uses all high quality ingredients and makes their ice cream by hand, giving them a better perspective on quality and more general control. Let's say both of these ice cream shops source the same sugar cones. Shop 2 cares more about the quality of the product and sources sugar cones from the less expensive source (the same as 1) for the consumer BENEFIT. This way, the quality of the ice cream is not sacrificed, but the consumer price point is reached. Being bitter over cone sourcing seems pretty irrational, right?

The integrity of the sonic reproduction is the ice cream.
LOL
thank you for your time
-Colin

[Confusionator]

Telefunken USA (I refuse to call them "Telefunken" because I have too much respect for that venerable brand) is 100% responsible for this market confusion. They sourced a pre-existing body and headgrill. They could easily, for a few thousand dollars of NRE, have had a different body designed that would have been unique to them, so that when you bought a Telefunken mic you could tell from outward appearances that you were getting something unique in the market.

So, to save a few bucks, Telefunken now has an image problem. The problem I have with the company is: why would I want to buy a mic from a company that was so uncommitted to its product line that it wouldn't go all the way towards creating a unique product, including outwards appearance? Hell, even sE mics are all clearly, uniquely their own.

With so many great alternatives in the market (Neumann, Manley, Bock, AKG, Lawson, Gefell, etc. ad nauseum), I look at the Telefunken USA stuff and just say to myself, "pass."

[always_ending]

I don't care what it "looks" like.... (and I find nothing wrong with the design's aesthetic looks personally)

...I care what it sounds like, period.

from what I've heard in 24bit wav files, the AK-47 is a mic that beats out every mic in that price point that I have heard.

It will definitely more than "hold me over" until I can get that ELA M251 and U47 from Telefunken Elektroakustik (their actual name if I don't wish to "Confusionator" anyone here ) because:

#1 - they are new mics and have a good company behind them that will be there for the next 30 years (important consideration for a young 30 old like myself) to service the mic and have plenty of replacement parts.

and #2 - bottom line is to my ears and every source I've listened on, I find their mics superior to others for the average of all things considered desirable in a mic.

I've never heard ANY mic that is 100% perfect in all aspects for all sources in all rooms/locations and the only people that even "claim" to have a mic of such proportions are 30 yr vets of the industry with double digit platinum albums/grammys, and the only reason they can claim this is these specific mics won them large portions of said accolades. By the time I'm their age, there will be guys with Telefunken Elektroakustik mics laying the same claims with their all original copies.