Career Advice?

[pootkao]

Hello, dearest and revered Gearslutz.
I've been mulling over my situation for some time now... nigh on a year, I suppose, and would like your thoughts on the matter. I posted a similar thread on TapeOp a few months ago, but they're different communities and I figured I'd tap as many shoulders as possible.

THE TUG ON THE HEARTSTRINGS BIT

I love recording.
In fact, the more I do it, the more it fascinates me. I love the creativity and the exploration of new sounds and the role of psychologist I get to play with clients. I love seeing a project from start to finish, hearing my stamp on it (for better or worse ) and feeling a sense of accomplishment and growth. I love seeing artists I've worked with start to do well and sell more and more records and tour more often and more succesfully.

THE BACKSTORY

I've been more or less self-sustained by recording for 3 or 4 years now. I do a bit of live sound pick-up work and play in a couple bands on the side, and all in all I'm able to squeek out a small living.

I'm the main 'engineer' (though not much of technician) at a small studio in a small market in a small country. The stuff that comes through the doors of the studio is usually pretty amateur stuff, while my freelance work brings in more personally and creatively rewarding projects. While this has meant I haven't had to deal with the competitiveness or demands of a larger market, I also haven't been forced to develop my skill-set as quickly via more professional clients/bosses. My learning has been a self-guided curve as necessitated by the needs of my clients -- mostly local indie-rock and folk/roots acts. I haven't interned or slugged through the perils, pitfalls yet opportunities of a larger facility. I haven't worked under a producer. I haven't aligned a tape machine since recording school. Everything is at the local level. And while there are a few brains to pick around town, no one is making the records I want to be making and there isn't anyone I'd want to apprentice under.

The kicker is that I actually quite like living here. Despite its many small-city hangups which drive me absolutely insane, there is a strong music scene and lots of wonderful people. I have great friends, a great relationship, and above all, would really like to help put this place on the creative map and make some really great and daring records. The problem is that I'm not always sure its possible in this place, and that the ceiling is in fact an actual ceiling. But I love this place, and its hard to leave a place you love for the great unknown. It would be hard to pack everything up if I didn't know there was a good situation & opportunity to learn and grow waiting at the other end of the line.

THE FUTURE?

I want to get a lot better at this. I want to make records that stand up against the creme of the indie crop ... Interpol, Death Cab, Calexico, Lisa Germano, Stars, etc etc. Its the Tony Doogans, Dave Fridmanns, Tucker Martines, Peter Katis and Chris Wallas of the world that excite me. I'm not too interested in the mainstream slick pop & rock machine, but would embrace the opportunity to apprentice under an engineer or producer who worked in that world in order to greatly improve my skillset.

So... How do I get there?

Can it be done by ever-so-slowly building a small (if big-hearted!) empire in the wintery middle of a small country? Or am I gonna need to get my ass out to NYC or Chicago or Toronto and really f'n giv'r as a slave for a few years?

WHERE YOU COME IN

I'd love to hear the stories of people that have come from smaller cities to the bigger ones and are playing in the Big Game, or the Indie Game, or hell even if you just really like the Cleveland Indians. thumbsup

I'd love to hear the stories of people that have stayed in the smaller cities and managed to make a go of it -- the Des Moines, the Cincinatti's, the Albequerques.

I'd love to hear anything you have to say that may or may not be of relevance to a guy a week away from his 29th birthday wondering what he should be doing with his so-called career?

[Henchman]

Well, it's getting harder and harder, if not almost damned near impossible to make a living engineering and /or producing.
I would not stay in winnipeg, or Canada for that matter.
I would try and find a way to get to the major centers. Nashville, Los Angeles, London, New York.

That being said, I used to love doing nothign but recording and producing music.
Te I kinda rolled into post, so mehtign I had never even considered.
I love doig post now.
But again, I you woudl have to move.

So eite rmove, or find a second career and do music on the side, because it's not gettign any easier. And trust me, before you know it, you're 40.

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by Henchman

And trust me, before you know it, you're 40.

(Ah! To be 40 again!)

[pootkao]

Ah, all this great wisdom on this site, and only one real reply? C'mon boys, I can take the blunt reality. Let it out...

[Mr. Liszt]

Originally Posted by pootkao

The kicker is that I actually quite like living here. Despite its many small-city hangups which drive me absolutely insane, there is a strong music scene and lots of wonderful people. I have great friends, a great relationship, and above all, would really like to help put this place on the creative map and make some really great and daring records. The problem is that I'm not always sure its possible in this place, and that the ceiling is in fact an actual ceiling. But I love this place, and its hard to leave a place you love for the great unknown. It would be hard to pack everything up if I didn't know there was a good situation & opportunity to learn and grow waiting at the other end of the line.

Hey,

I respect you for making it this far. Endless musicians never even reached the point your at, to make your living off of making music!

I'm in a similar situation though you are a further along than me professionally speaking. I have no advice whatsoever to offer; only junior camaraderie. Like you though, I love my city too. It's pretty small and there's an ok music scene here like your city. I have many connections around the city and a great support system. I'd love to move to a bigger city with more challenges and more talent and more pressure. Once I find a job somewhere I'm gone. But until then I am just going to focus on the task of making great recordings of great songs. I'm going to need some big guns with me when I go.

Romantic, sure...

This is coming from an amateur and a hypothetician but I don't think anyone can argue with a great recording. Nothing except foolishness can really stop a truly great and singular recording either. I'm sure that if you can make one of these then it will take you where ever you think you need to be. Of course when I say 'great recording' I am talking about something highly exceptional from every angle conceivable. I mean a rare beast. Something transcendent. These are rare and I'd bet that only a handful in a few thousand engineer/producer/rock performer wannabes will ever produce or be a part of such a thing.

Anyway, all I can think of to do is to keep working on that, be on the lookout for opportunities. Keep making connections. Return favors and be a nice guy to work with.

I think it's important for me to remind myself of what's out there and what has come before and the magnitude of some of the great recordings of the past and those of the present. I try to always remember the madmen that I am up against. The level that my material must reach.

I have a photo of Franz Liszt on my wall. He looks over my shoulder watching the things I do, thinking about the decisions I make, the notes I choose and the ones I don't, the directions I give. He seems to say, "Do you have any idea of you're f***ing with?"

If I could, I would answer him, "Yes, Franz, I do. And in my stubborn humility that is the only reason I continue - because I know exactly what you are." But of course, I cannot reply.

Franz is dead and it's my turn.

[Infernal Device]

Good post. You can do anything you want. All you have to do is be willing to work harder than the people around you.

You can think of your future as either a dream or wish, or think of it as knowing of a certainty.

I moved out of my parent's house at 17 with half a tank of gas and $35. I had my guitars and clothes with me. That's it. No place to stay, no "belongings".

No help, no tru****nds, no big checks.

I stayed in a small town in Pennsylvania and I am still here.

I produce Mon-Fri, 10am-6pm. I own a house, own the studio, vacation in Mexico and enjoy the spoils of life (within reason). Sometimes I get booked 5 months out.

Either dream about it or start living it. It is that easy.

The industry sucks. It will test you every day. When you have gone through the hardest, everything else seems easy.

Good luck (if you think luck has anything to do with it).

[joelpatterson]

Originally Posted by pootkao

Ah, all this great wisdom on this site, and only one real reply? C'mon boys, I can take the blunt reality. Let it out...

I think the blunt reality is as so: it really truly is within your power to do what you want. This is hard to believe, maybe, because it seems to run counter to everything you are apprehensive about. I can offer my story....

I was overtaken ('round my 30th birthday) with this nagging sense that I had abandoned all the "creative" dreams of my youth and was settling into a thoroughly boring, comfortable life. So--this is skipping a few steps, I'm sure you can find the details on TapeOp somewhere--I built a studio, kind of out in the middle of nowhere. The hinterlands of Albany, New York is not exactly bleakest Canada, but there are more cows than people in my immediate vicinity.

All my "well meaning" friends offered the wisdom that I could take a day job, clerk in a store or something, and do my recording at night. This is absurd, I instinctively understood, and I realized that for THEM this was good advice--not for me. The way I looked at it--does anyone want to go to a doctor who works in a hardware store, but really loves medicine and does it at night? How about a lawyer who loves the law but works as a landscaper during the daylight hours?

See... they thought "recording studio" was "making a few bucks at your hobby," not "serious career path." I don't really blame them--they had never been to a recording studio, had never needed one, and had no idea at all what it was about, not that that hindered them offering advice. How I looked at it was: blindly, and with faith. I said to myself, when I talked to myself at all, as long as I could pay the phone bill, I would keep at it-- if I missed enough payments that my phone was disconnected, then I would have to explore other options.

Staying in Canada, leaving Canada, it's kind of all the same-- if you really believe that you need to make this your life, well then do it.

To bring the story up to date, I've weaseled my way into live concert recording for every local group I can find. I'm certainly not going to go blabbering on the "How much did you make last year engineering" thread, but suffice it to say, I can pay my phone bill these days, no problem.

[Henchman]

You say you love where you live.
What other places have you lived?
My journey to further my career has taken me from holland to San Francisco, Vancouver and now LA.

There's a great big world out there. At least experience it before settling on the one place you know.

[pbell]

Pootkao, I'm from the same city and I know the story all to well. I went to LA and tried interning at a studio, even though they liked me they couldn't afford to hire me after the internship was over. I talked to 30 other studios in LA with references from where I interned and I got 15 go aways, 5 you need to intern again, 5 no replies, 2 we'll keep you on file, and three "get lost we don't hire Canadians". I've looked at all the other major Canadian centers (Vancouver etc) and got similar responses of "We don't need anyone".

I make a living doing Commerical work right now and I love it. I'm really having a great time, hopefully as time continues I will be able to move into doing more music stuff.

So what am I saying? If you truly want to do music you need to carve your own way into it, and yes it will be hard, if not seemingly impossible. I suppose it means taking some risks, big ones at that. It also means really honing your skills too. With two of the bigger studios in Winnipeg gone and probably more on the way Winnipeg is definitely not an easy place to make a living off of music. In fact it is almost impossible, I don't really know anyone who does it - this doesn't mean it can't be done.

I guess what I am saying is you have to ask yourself "what sacrifices, if any, am I willing to make in order to be successful as an engineer/producer?" "Do I want to keep grinding it out, or is it time for something else?" I ask myself these questions on a daily basis.

Wow that was longwinded...sorry.

[TheRealRoach]

I don't nearly have the years behind me that some others might but here goes...

I'm in Toronto, only been doing this full time with my own studio for a couple years now and it's been going pretty good. Moving to a big city might open you up to more musicians, bands, writers, opportunities, but it also opens up and equal amount of competition. Every week I hear about another dude that's doing what I do that's outside of the normal circle of guys that i personally KNOW that are already doing the same thing I do.

Time passes by where not much happens (which, in part, ends up getting spent on gearslutz :P, like today.. cancellation). But at other moments I've got more than I can even fit into a week.

With all that said, it sounds like you need some refreshing, and starting up in a new city would probably do it. In the next couple months two of the big music conferences/festivals will be rolling through Toronto (Canadian Music Week, North By NorthEast). If anything maybe it's worthwhile to take a trip to check it out.

Can it be done by ever-so-slowly building a small (if big-hearted!) empire in the wintery middle of a small country? Or am I gonna need to get my ass out to NYC or Chicago or Toronto and really f'n giv'r as a slave for a few years?

If you want to do work on the level of the artists that you mention then I don't think you can do it in your town. There are lots of great young bands and artists in Toronto right now, but developing them as a Producer takes time and you need a way to pay the bills while you're developing them, which for me is engineering, and many times freelancing at smaller studios/writing rooms.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by pbell

Pootkao, I'm from the same city and I know the story all to well. I went to LA and tried interning at a studio, even though they liked me they couldn't afford to hire me after the internship was over. I talked to 30 other studios in LA with references from where I interned and I got 15 go aways, 5 you need to intern again, 5 no replies, 2 we'll keep you on file, and three "get lost we don't hire Canadians". I've looked at all the other major Canadian centers (Vancouver etc) and got similar responses of "We don't need anyone".

I had the same experience when I moved to Vancouver.
I had a platinum record, and couldn't get a job as an assistant.

The thing you have to take into accoutn is that going to the US, it's a costly thing to get someone a workpermit, and why woudl a studio go through that expense when there's a hundred gusy walking around who they don't have to go through all that for.

Also, when you are in your twenties, soem coutnries have special visa's for young people. I know the UK does.

[JohnnyFree]

Ha! I live in Cleveland so the bit about the Indians was funny.

Well - I probably have less experience than you do - but I went into recording after I graduated college with a mechanical engineering degree.

I'm not totally familiar with Winnipeg, but Cleveland, OH is a smaller market where not a lot of people make a living from recording/music. In fact, several of the big studios here all have people who have to work other jobs just to make bills. So this is my experience thus far.....

I went to most of the major studios in town, none would even hire me as an intern working for free - they all wanted me to bring bands in and then they would let me work.

I finally got into a new studio as a no-pay intern, that opened that was a high-end facility - needless to say it went through some problems and I had been there about 8 months and we had only brought ONE band in the entire time so I left.

In between that I have done freelance work on audio for local movies and some other commercial shoots that have come into town. I still have a "day job" as a mechanical engineer for now.

If you really want to work with the producers/artists/engineers as you're describing then I would go to a larger market, which will have more competition of course....but more opportunity. Such is the paradox of life!

I am saving money to move to any place I need to in order to get an internship and then a position - I want to do this for a living and being in a smaller market I feel that is pretty much what has to happen to get to the level that I want.

Like someone else said above, I think most of it comes down to your drive and persistence...if you are working harder than others around you, you will probably achieve your goal.

So, those are my two cents for what it's worth.

[pootkao]

Hey, another Winnipegger! Waddaya know. Cool, welcome aboard.

Ah, now we're starting to get somewhere.
Thanks for all your responses thus far.
Keep 'em coming.

A couple points of clarification: I haven't lived in Winnipeg my whole life. I'd be a miserable wreck of a man if that was the case, you gotta get outta here for a good chunk of time once every 4 or 5 years or so. So, I've lived in Montreal and also in London, Ontario in the past. I've also toured all over Canada and through a bunch of the States too.

Anyways, yes, this is what I want to be doing. And yes, I'm already able to make a living at it. I guess what I'm saying that I want is to make BETTER RECORDS. I'm lucky enough that I'm set up in a pretty decent studio, even though it flies under the radar in town. I just gotta figure out how to get more interesting clients more often and thus, more experience...

[pbell]

Henchman, that was the problem, why hire me when they could hire an American. Even though I was somewhat well connected at a few studios - my friend who got me down there used to be a manager at one of the major studios down there. I think its just a bad time to be trying to get down there.

Pootkao, what studio are you at in town?

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by pbell

I think its just a bad time to be trying to get down there.

I think it's a bad time in general to make a decent living recording music. Unfortunately.

[pootkao]

PBell: I'm at MCM Studios on the CMU Campus (Grant & Shaftsbury)
If you click my name <------- there's a link to my myspace with a few pics etc. Its a good room.

[pbell]

Originally Posted by pootkao

PBell: I'm at MCM Studios on the CMU Campus (Grant & Shaftsbury)
If you click my name <------- there's a link to my myspace with a few pics etc. Its a good room.

I've heard some great things about that place. Where abouts on the campus is the studio? I was there once and if memory serves me right I remember there being a few fairly nice halls that would have been great for recording in.

[James Meeker]

To really make a career at this you've gotta be where the action is. The name of this game is DISCOGRAPHY and CLIENT LIST. The more good sounding records you have, and the more impressive you client list is the better off you're going to be.

Problem is, the major recording cities are already chock full of people with discographies and client lists that are stunning. Chances are if you go there you're going to be the assistant's assistant for years and not really move ahead.

I was in a similar situation--small town, small market, small clients. I focused on building up a good sounding discography (consisting of no names) and when I was ready I started making calls to studios in second cities. I knew I couldn't compete in NYC or LA, but I could probably swing something in Chicago, Cleveland or Boston.

Worked like a charm. Got a job in Cleveland and have been racking up the discography and national client list.