LOGIC 8 Track Folder BUGS - with LINKS!

[rosewoodstrat]

I have been tracking some live drums in Logic 8.0.1 (reluctantly, for the first time putting it through it's paces) on a session using my laptop (only because I figured that buying into the Logic 8 upgrade - and only installing it on my laptop would be a way to "monitor" it's "progress" (??) running it remotely from my studio without messing with my main G5 system) I still run Logic 7 on my main system - the version of Logic that I'm more and more frequently calling the last PRO version of Logic. That is my opinion and here's just a few of the myriad reasons why I feel this way...

The new GUI has some incredibly infuriating "new" features. One that particularly screws me up is when I click and drag in the bar ruler - to nip over to another section of the song manually...suddenly I'm like, zoomed in or zoomed out and at some place in the song that I wasn't navigating to...this is just insane. If I want to ZOOM IN OR OUT, APPLE, that is a KEY COMMAND, not a part of the bar ruler function, that has been reserved since the beginning of Logic, for manually NAVIGATING to a different section in the song!!! PLEASE remove the zoom function from the area in the bar ruler that is reserved for moving the SPL around the song, honestly. Or can I turn this ridiculous default "function" off somewhere? Anyway,who's ruining my software? If stuff like that is going to continue to happen to Logic, I may have to abandon ship at some point (sooner rather than later...)

Yes, I'm here to confirm that Logic 8 really is quite a mess (I've been using Logic since 1995...)

I would like to bring up, in particular, major bugs in the functionality of track folders. When I record multiple tracks (like drums) I pack each take into a folder, and then comp the best sections together by cutting/muting various sections of the available drum folder takes. This was always a bug free and predictable job in every other version of Logic (before this monstrosity called Logic Studio came along...)

Logic 8 has a new function (when you "punch on the fly", over an existing region - akin to tape, when in "replace" mode) and so now a small upside down triangle appears in the top right of the audio region(s) after you have recorded over an existing region with a "punch in". Click on the triangle and the new punched in audio appears below the original region..! I have yet to figure out this new Carlos Fandango drop in mode. It certainly makes trimming the dropped in regions (and drums consist of multiple tracks - that have to be edited simultaneously, for obvious reasons of course) cumbersome and altogether irritating, if not, downright confusing and extremely time consuming. In a quagmire where there used to be er, pure LOGIC. But wait...there's more...

Try assembling your drum comp together (placing all the unmuted regions of the folder tracks - of your chosen drum regions from the various takes) together on a single folder track, and then try gluing them together. I got one of those weird and nasty dialog alert boxes, warning me that Logic 8 was basically unleashing unforetold chaos in the form of nasty bugs into my drum comping session (I didn't grab a screenshot of the message, so I can't remember what it said right now) but I'm pretty sure that it had something to do with that new "punch in" function. Because now, there is an element of confusion as Logic 8 now cannot figure out efficiently how to glue together a bunch of folder regions containing audio regions that have "punch ins" embedded within some of them, but not in others, without totally bugging out! (One bug worthy of mention here was there were regions displayed within the track folder that "vanished" when they were selected...and then rematerialized when clicking on the background...WTF?!)

Below are a couple of examples of this mess, in the form of a screenshot followed by an animated GIF from inside one of the packed folders.

Here is a screenshot of a "faultline" in the graphics inside a track folder:

1) StaggeredRegions.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...dRegions-1.jpg

Inspires confidence, ey!

Here's a very telling animated GIF:
2) Logic8Bugs.gif
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...Logic8Bugs.gif
Here, you can see that there are 2 SPL's (song position lines or playheads) - one is real, the other is a bug), the "selected" regions to the right of the unselected regions don't actually exist - no sound plays from them, and you cannot deselect them - as I said, they don't really exist) so someone at Apple please advise me on how I'm gonna go about getting my drum comp done quickly in this acutely chaotic and extremely amateurish fashion (yes, in front of a client too, sometimes) you know, I can't believe that I was even suckered into purchasing this defaced and vandalized version of Logic...!)

I've been patient enough. Apple, can you please refrain for a while from putting all of your time into less important crap such as JAMPACKS, and maybe devote some of your limited LOGIC time into trying to understand the beauty and the genius behind some of the EXISTING functionality - that this powerful music software app posesses - that you inherited from EMAGIC? And then upgrading it SENSIBLY and with some RESPECT, invest a little more time in understanding this piece of software that you now own, at a FUNDAMENTAL level, instead of riddling it with bugs and adding senseless and inane features (in particular, the afore-mentioned zoom feature, installed into the SAME SPOT in the bar ruler, where there is already an existing function - REWIND and FORWARD??!) this extreme tomfoolery in the coding department is more often than not, sabotaging the speed, workflow and professionalism of a music session...who knows, maybe Apple should just stick to making iPods or just go back to designing computers...and sell Logic back to industry insiders who know and understand what it actually is!

The rampant bugginess of 8 can also have the effect (to an untrained client's eye) of making an experienced Logic user look like a complete nob, as they discover themselves embroiled and tangled up in the chaotic web of spurious and misbehaving Logic code on a session. And for what? For the sake of Apple trying to make the GUI look more like Garageband? Or Aperture? If this is the road Logic continues to go down, the just remove "pro" from it's name, and retitle it iLogical...?

Apple, are you listening?! (repeat ad infinitum...)

[zmix]

Thanks for the heads-up...!!

I hope that you have reported this to Apple directly, too....

Logic Pro Feedback

[Ashermusic]

The whole Takes Folder/Swipe Comp stuff is indeed buggy.

I recommend not using it presently and you will have abetter experience with Logic 8.0.1.

[rosewoodstrat]

That's like saying "board that wingless plane..."

I'm having a much richer and more professional experience with Logic 7...8 is a waste of precious TIME. But if you want to fiddle around with a broken toy that's none of my business! I'm done with it after the track folder saga I just went through...and I don't see Apple getting it together anytime soon to address this BS. I have a career that won't wait for them to pull their socks up.

I recommend taking your Logic Studio box outside, pouring some gasoline on it and throwing on a match...and advising your students to follow suit.

[noiseflaw]

You can bet to God that any of their iPhone bugs are ironed out before they appear...

As for Logic (Pro?) 8 well just remember Apple want to take over the planet now and the Logic battalion is not at the forefront of their world domination battle.

I am back to 7 now also. working in 8 has massively slowed my workflow - so much for progress...

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by noiseflaw

You can bet to God that any of their iPhone bugs are ironed out before they appear...

As for Logic (Pro?) 8 well just remember Apple want to take over the planet now and the Logic battalion is not at the forefront of their Wworld domination battle.

I am back to 7 now also. working in 8 has massively slowed my workflow - so much for progress...

Agreed. All Apple seem to want to achieve these days is just to sell more of their iPhones, iPods and computers. I really wish that they'd never acquired Emagic. They shame themselves with the neglect and the binary destruction that they've showered upon this once great software. Not to mention that they've cannibalised Emagic's plugins and then put them in stuff like Soundtrack Pro...I believe they also modified some of Logic's code for Garageband. Binary Plunderers!

Peace, Noiseflaw

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by rosewoodstrat

That's like saying "board that wingless plane..."

I'll be having a much richer and more professional experience with Logic 7...8 is a waste of precious TIME. But if you want to fiddle around with a broken toy that's none of my business! I'm done with it after the track folder saga I just went through...and I don't see Apple getting it together anytime soon to address this BS. I have a career that won't wait for them to pull their socks up.

I recommend taking your Logic Studio box outside, pouring some gasoline on it and throwing on a match...and advising your students to follow suit.

I know better than to think I will have a constructive dialog with you but for the others out there there are a lot of other ways to record and create comps in Logic 8.

I just spent yesterday doing so quite successfully.

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

I know better than to think I will have a constructive dialog with you but for the others out there there are a lot of other ways to record and create comps in Logic 8.

Another personal and veiled insult from the notorious Logic thread troll Jay (a.k.a. disrespecting ignoble caliginous kaka) however I'm more impartial to the abbreviation. I guess you don't use folder tracks these days? They're very useful when editing multiple tracks/takes such as drums. But I'm sure you have developed plenty of fiddly time compromising workarounds in Logic 8. Do you do tutorials on the Logic 8 bugs too? Now there's a lucrative niche market...and you'll never run out of fresh material for your lessons!

Happy New Year, Blind Defender Of The 8!

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by rosewoodstrat

Another personal and veiled insult from the notorious Logic thread troll Jay (a.k.a. disrespecting ignoble caliginous kaka) however I'm more impartial to the abbreviation. I guess you don't use folder tracks these days? They're very useful when editing multiple tracks/takes such as drums. But I'm sure you have developed plenty of fiddly time compromising workarounds in Logic 8. Do you do tutorials on the Logic 8 bugs too? Now there's a lucrative niche market...and you'll never run out of fresh material for your lessons!

Happy New Year, Blind Defender Of The 8!

It is not meant as an insult it is simply a summary of the past. I try to help people using Logic solves problems by trying to ascertain if it is indeed a bug or system specific. When it is a bug I suggest workarounds.

Your only agenda seems to be to diss Logic 8 so literally nothing constructive comes from it.

I wish for you a 2008 that brings you more constructive things to do with your time.

[rosewoodstrat]

As I'm posting here in the moan zone I would like to additionally point out another L8 Achilles Heel - that the L8 Toolbox appears as a list instead of a toolbox.

I personally like to use a multi-button mouse and I have the right mouse button assigned to the toolbox, which makes switching tools a snap in Logic 7, especially useful when comping vocals rapidly, amongst other things. I also have the mute tool assigned to a key on the qwerty keyboard.

The "new" tool list in L8 is cumbersome, big and ugly. And I found that I have to scroll down a list when switching tools with it, slooow. This is a downgrade in performance when switching tools if you use a mouse button to do it. If someone showed me the L7 toolbox versus the L8 tool list, and asked me which one was the old one and which one was the upgrade, and I didn't know any better, I would choose the L7 toolbox.

I imported my key commands (which was no mean feat in L8, as it had already assigned various functions by default to keys that I had already assigned existing functions to in my existing key commands, so I was forced to "untie" the functions that Apple had assigned to certain things - ugh) but eventually I got everything working in L8 as I like it. My screensets are spread across the numerical keypad, but despite this, in the "new" L8 tool list, there are numbers to the right of the list still suggesting a number key to switch to a tool, despite the fact that I have screensets assigned to those keys, but especially alarming is that I had also untied the Apple numerical default commands - yet the key numbers are still displayed in the tool list. I find that completely absurd.

Apple now appear to be attempting to dictate some key commands to the Logic user, clearly. The whole point of Logic was that the user could freely assign his or her own key commands. An open house where you can choose where to place the various rooms is an analogy I like to use. Now that freedom is showing signs of erosion in L8.

So the summary is - do Apple really think it's progress, expecting Logic users to adopt this new tool protocol, suggesting eating up all of your numerical keypad and additionally, some of the qwerty keyboard too, just to switch a tool? Now if that ain't a bad idea, then I don't know what is...

Imagine going into your toolshed - and placing a pair of scissors on the wall and then writing "scissors tool" next to them, or maybe placing a glue tube on the wall and writing "glue tool" next to it. I mean, really, come on!

Oh, I almost forgot...they're dumbing L8 down for migrating Garageband users! (No offense to anyone who has switched to Logic 8 from Garageband intended...)

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h.../L7Toolbox.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h.../L8Toolbox.jpg

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by rosewoodstrat

As I'm posting here in the moan zone I would like to additionally point out another L8 Achilles Heel - that the L8 Toolbox appears as a list instead of a toolbox.

I personally like to use a multi-button mouse and I have the right mouse button assigned to the toolbox, which makes switching tools a snap in Logic 7, especially useful when comping vocals rapidly, amongst other things. I also have the mute tool assigned to a key on the qwerty keyboard.

The "new" tool list in L8 is cumbersome, big and ugly. And I found that I have to scroll down a list when switching tools with it, slooow. This is a downgrade in performance when switching tools if you use a mouse button to do it. If someone showed me the L7 toolbox versus the L8 tool list, and asked me which one was the old one and which one was the upgrade, and I didn't know any better, I would choose the L7 toolbox.

I imported my key commands (which was no mean feat in L8, as it had already assigned various functions by default to keys that I had already assigned existing functions to in my existing key commands, so I was forced to "untie" the functions that Apple had assigned to certain things - ugh) but eventually I got everything working in L8 as I like it. My screensets are spread across the numerical keypad, but despite this, in the "new" L8 tool list, there are numbers to the right of the list still suggesting a number key to switch to a tool, despite the fact that I have screensets assigned to those keys, but especially alarming is that I had also untied the Apple numerical default commands - yet the key numbers are still displayed in the tool list. I find that completely absurd.

Apple now appear to be attempting to dictate some key commands to the Logic user, clearly. The whole point of Logic was that the user could freely assign his or her own key commands. An open house where you can choose where to place the various rooms is an analogy is one that I like to use. Now that freedom is showing signs of erosion in L8.

So the summary is - do Apple really think it's progress, expecting Logic users to adopt this new tool protocol, suggesting eating up all of your numerical keypad and additionally, some of the qwerty keyboard too, just to switch a tool? Now if that ain't a bad idea, then I don't know what is...

Imagine going into your toolshed - and placing a pair of scissors on the wall and then writing "scissors tool" next to them, or maybe placing a glue tube on the wall and writing "glue tool" next to it. I mean, really, come on!

Oh, I almost forgot...they're dumbing L8 down for migrating Garageband users! (No offense to anyone who has switched to Logic 8 from Garageband intended...)

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h.../L7Toolbox.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h.../L8Toolbox.jpg

OK, the "blind defender of L8" will surprise you here and say I agree, the old toolbox implementation was better.

And I too would not welcome much more intrusion on my ability to choose whatever key commands I want.

I would not agree with "dumbing down" however but would say "making easier."

90% of what I did all the time in L7 I can still do either the same way or close to it in L8.

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by Ashermusic

OK, the "blind defender of L8" will surprise you here and say I agree, the old toolbox implementation was better.

And I too would not welcome much more intrusion on my ability to choose whatever key commands I want.

I would not agree with "dumbing down" however but would say "making easier."

90% of what I did all the time in L7 I can still do either the same way or close to it in L8.

Having read Ashermusic's latest "defense", it leads me to believe the old adage is true..."Those who can, Do...and those who can't, Teach"...Logic 8.

[Ashermusic]

Originally Posted by rosewoodstrat

Having read Ashermusic's latest "defense", it leads me to believe the old adage is true..."Those who can, Do...and those who can't, Teach"...Logic 8.

Go to my website and listen to what I have written over the years and then say that I can't do.

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by zmix

Thanks for the heads-up...!!

I hope that you have reported this to Apple directly, too....

Logic Pro Feedback

Hi zmix,

Thanks for that link. I've submitted my reports to Apple. I also included a request for Apple to replace the toolbox "list" with the original toolbox. I only hope...that they'll read it, but more importantly, that they'll put these things back the way they were before...hmm yes optimistic, I know.

My next report to Apple will be to ask them to put the output selector back into the sample edit window. Something that Slipperman pointed out in another thread. The loss of this feature (when mixing outside the box, as we do) is yet another grave and misguided folly in the increasingly bullet riddled version of Logic that sports the number 8...I'll be making some time in order to make more notes (in between my work) on what should be reinstated or repaired in Logic 8...anyone who's interested let us know your Logic 8 gripe, or post a link to it...all I know is that I can't use this app for any serious production work the way it is currently. But using V.7 forever is no real long term solution either. This is a last ditch attempt (for me anyway) to try to get Apple to sit up and take notice (swimming upstream here) so the more people who get involved the better. If they don't take notice and Logic 8 continues to take the low road to oblivion, I'm defo buying a PC and a copy of Sonar...

I feel that it would be a step in the right direction to get more like-minded thinkers who maybe reading this thread also posting to Apple their Logic 8 concerns...(if they haven't already) before it's too late...just putting it out there...

[rosewoodstrat]

In the meantime, a brief intermission...

Logic Studio or Aperture? Logic 7 was laid out so much better than Logic 8, in my book. Unfortunately, they chose to make Logic 8 look like Aperture. What is this 'geek' mentality, homogenizing everything to look the same...?

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...t/Aperture.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/h...rat/Logic8.jpg

[macleodgrant]

regarding the zoom at playhead feature, i like the potential of this feature since there is currently no way to zoom at the playhead regardless of selections, etc. i sent feedback about this feature requesting that it has a "rule" in that if you start dragging horizontally then the playhead 'only' relocates however if you drag vertically then then it allows zooming and relocation!

i too agree that logic 8 has taken a turn for the worse! i'm so sick of workarounds, i want to do something the way it was designed to be done without bugs hampering me!

it's just amazing how many more bugs there are now than before and as is my experience with logic, the majority of these bugs are probably here to stay!

i was speaking to a software developer the other day and he said the following about application development. the below is the gist of it!

"say it takes 1000 man hours to get a program working 80%. the developers will then likely have to invest a further 400 man hours to take it another 10% of the way but the the remaining 10% could take a further 1000 man hours or more to weed out all the bugs, etc which they probably feel is not worth it. so for the next version, they will then dedicate a portion of the development time on some of the bugs but will spend the most time developing new features."

well, i must say, digidesign are brilliant in this department and pay much more attention to detail. i used version 7.4 for some editing and elastic audio and it never crashed once and i never experienced any bugs! those guys rock! i'm probably going to have to move over once they include ADC.

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

regarding the zoom at playhead feature, i like the potential of this feature since there is currently no way to zoom at the playhead regardless of selections, etc. i sent feedback about this feature requesting that it has a "rule" in that if you start dragging horizontally then the playhead 'only' relocates however if you drag vertically then then it allows zooming and relocation!

That's a great idea...

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by rosewoodstrat

That's like saying "board that wingless plane..."

I'm having a much richer and more professional experience with Logic 7...8 is a waste of precious TIME. But if you want to fiddle around with a broken toy that's none of my business! I'm done with it after the track folder saga I just went through...and I don't see Apple getting it together anytime soon to address this BS. I have a career that won't wait for them to pull their socks up.

I recommend taking your Logic Studio box outside, pouring some gasoline on it and throwing on a match...and advising your students to follow suit.

I absolutely agree with this statement.
There was no change for the better with Logic 8.0.1
I have bugs over bugs under an very expensive Intel Mac with OSX 10.4.11.... I have NO HOPE for this ex good Emagic IDEA.

Apple is waisting my Time and my Money with Logic 8.
They have good new features which are insufficient because of their stupid bugs.

I like to get things together with Logic 8.0.1 and do not like to become an expert in writing bug reports.

To burn the Logic 8 box with a big can of gasoline would be the best!!!

I can not understand that there are people outside which excuse this Logic 8 disaster....

I will wait 3 more months for a Logic 8.0.2 if nothing is happen i am going to burn my logic 8 box and will publish a video on you tube.... take my word for it you inspired me to this......
dfegadLOGIC 8 BOX

[heyman]

The sooner you guys realize that Most Software Companies are not run by musicians the better off you will be.

Software companies look at quarterly results/profits. If the company needs to hit a certain number to stay on top... Guess what, a new product can be pushed out the door weeks, if not months ahead (beta) before it is a release candidate..

Tech support / bug fixes take a back seat to sales upfront. The "fix it later approach" does not only apply to alot of studios, but also Software companies as well.

I should know. I worked for one for 4.5 years.

[Mr.HOLMES]

Originally Posted by heyman

The sooner you guys realize that Most Software Companies are not run by musicians the better off you will be.

Software companies look at quarterly results/profits. If the company needs to hit a certain number to stay on top... Guess what, a new product can be pushed out the door weeks, if not months ahead (beta) before it is a release candidate..

Tech support / bug fixes take a back seat to sales upfront. The "fix it later approach" does not only apply to alot of studios, but also Software companies as well.

I should know. I worked for one for 4.5 years.

I never said that it is easy to programm such a big tool like Logic.....
But it would be nice if Apple is taking i bit more care for bug fixes before they thorw piss on the market.... so there a big bugs in it and it can not be the last word that the users are beta testers... so you pay for it ad your work for apple but they do not pay me for my hours of writing bug reports...

in my dream a company like apple should first check out a product before giving it to customers. even id this means taht it will take two more years of developping.....

i am wondering that the guys in the stock market do not see a reasen in this beta tester szenario to loose customers....

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by heyman

The sooner you guys realize that Most Software Companies are not run by musicians the better off you will be.

I fully understand this. And that can sometimes be a problem for musicians when software has become the replacement for traditional recording equipment, and then when giant companies such as Apple (who don't seem to appear to have many coders with their roots in the business of making professional recording equipment) buy out a company like Emagic, there are bound to be misguided and misinformed updates in relation to how the software was originally intended to be headed. One minor example of that is the absence of a phase reverse switch in the Logic mixer. Sonar has it built directly into the channel strip. In Logic, you have to use a helper plugin to reverse the phase of a channel...a feature that would normally be embedded directly within the channel. That's...common knowledge (in the pro audio world), but not at Apple. I just wish that Emagic had put in a phase reverse switch themselves before Apple bought them out.

Instead of intelligent and informed updates like the one I just described, we get "blunderdates", one of which is a new toolbox resembling a clumsy list. Have any of these Apple programmers ever sat down on a session and actually recorded and edited any music - played live by musicians? Or are they thinking only about the leisurely Starbucks headphone session, kicking around a few midi notes in a remix, whilst slurping on a cappuccino? (thanks zmix for that!)

Did they think of engineers with outboard gear inserted across a channel, utilizing a patchbay (Logic coders at Apple, by the way - have you ever seen a patchbay...?) with the I/O plug in, when they removed the output selector from the sample edit window? Have they actually ever properly examined what the sample edit window does, and how extremely useful it can be? Oh, I forgot. They want Logic to look like Garageband, insofar as there has never been a sample edit window in Garageband (or PT, for that matter). So why not just begin deconstructing the sample edit window by removing essential features such as the output selector? "Why not", they must think..."why, Logic 8 noobs shouldn't have to get their heads around this overcomplicated extra window, should they?" Let's slowly deconstruct it, and maybe nobody will notice...? Well, Apple, we DO notice. This is OUR software, and you have an obligation to listen to the users, especially the ones who know more about Logic in the day to day use of it, which is at the other end of the spectrum from the designers...oops I meant to say redesigners.

The track folder is essential to comping drums for me - this is positively unusable in Logic 8.0/8.0.1 as described earlier in this thread. Recording live musicians often requires the ability to drop in - and that was a simple function in L7 and before. It wasn't always perfect, but it has gotten worse. Now we have this buggy and downright dumb new "feature" - that embeds the dropped-in region into the previous region, but now it isn't possible to edit the crossover point in the same track lane! A true clusterf*ck when trying to edit a multiple drum take! Normally, I just put Logic into replace mode, with "punch on the fly" active, and it used to act somewhat like a tape machine, except of course, I could always get back what I had before (if the dropped-in take was no good) by deleting the drop in and then "unrolling" the previous take out again (if I dropped in too early previously) key back a couple bars, and drop in again. The new drop-in feature is a clusterf*ck designed by someone who has clearly never sat in on a live recording session! AND it's full of bugs, to boot. And boot it I have.

Apple certainly does not appear to be showing too much evidence of having many personnel employed (to code Logic) who have a real handle on the live recording world. One only has to look at how Logic 8 is taking multiple left turns in the wrong direction, with it's countless and mounting bugs and other misinformed maladies, such as the new "Carlos Fandango drop-in feature" to realize this. The only new feature that is cool, is the low latency button. But this, at best, appears to be just another token gesture.

[Tantrum The Cat]

This is not a personal attack against you, rosewoodstrat, because you seem like an intelligent guy.

But the "Oh, this is just Garageband with a new paint job" argument has been driven into the ground. It's just plain illogical, no pun intended. If Apple were truly dumbing the program down with "blunderdates", as you call them, then they would be actively stripping out features. That's not what I see here, and I've been using Logic since version 2.5 on a screaming-fast-for-the-era Mac 7200/120 (8 tracks of audio, huzzah!).

I also disagree with the idea that Apple is catering only to newbies and leaving professionals out of the loop. I do the occasional bit of Logic tutoring (not my main line of work), and to the newbie, Logic is still the convoluted, lumbering, multi-headed beast it's always been... even if that newbie has a firm grasp of Garageband!!! You'll simply have to trust me on this one.

I upgraded to Logic 8 the week it came out, pretty much, and have done STACKS of vocal tracks with it, all on songs that were made for CD release. I imported my old screensets and key commands with a bare minimum of fuss, and was very pleasantly surprised by the modified GUI. I've actually been using my screensets less & less because I've found that I can easily navigate to where I want with a few keystrokes.

I didn't bother with the swipe-comping feature (I have my own way to deal with multiple vocal takes), but I actually WELCOME many of the new features, like the expanded tool box. Ditto the zoom-from-playback-cursor-thing, which has been a standard feature in other sequencers (such as Ableton Live) for ages.
The Transform window has also been drastically improved.

My point is this: the overarching tone of this thread has been "I'm owed a living because someone dared to mess with my favorite computer program, and anyone who dares disagree with me is an Apple-fellating idiot". That may not be what you were going for, but don't insult those of us who are getting our tracks made, and who actually enjoy many of the new features.

[zmix]

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

--//--snip--//--
"anyone who dares disagree with me is an Apple-fellating idiot"

Gives a whole new meaning to "bobbing for apples", doesn't it?

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by zmix

Gives a whole new meaning to "bobbing for apples", doesn't it?

Hehe! LOL

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by Mr.HOLMES

I can not understand that there are people outside which excuse this Logic 8 disaster....

There's a whole army of those guys. They can be similar in behavior to a certain species of ANT. They tend to work together on pulling apart and devouring an object if their senses tell them they're being threatened, even if it's just a bunch of roots on a harmless and healthy plant next to the tree they occupy.



Just instinct...however, there's something else ants do that most of these people don't...the ants don't try to ignore the bugs...they actually consume them! Pretty smart really.

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

I've been using Logic since version 2.5 on a screaming-fast-for-the-era Mac 7200/120 (8 tracks of audio, huzzah!)

Sure. I was running Logic V.2.1 (or whatever it was back then) on a blistering 8100/100 with a massive 4Gb Seagate Barracuda audio drive, in 1995. Then an 8200/100 with the new PCI slots that 'Dodgydesign' weren't ready for at all. 8 wonderful tracks of audio on a Digi Elvis Nubus card. I had to go back to the 8100 and the Nubus version of the card, because DAE V.3.0 (first PCI version of the driver at the time) was a dog's dinner...

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

But the "Oh, this is just Garageband with a new paint job" argument has been driven into the ground.

? That wasn't my argument. My argument was that they're making Logic's GUI look more and more like Garageband, and now we have a wheelbarrow full of bugs as a result.

If I'd said "Oh, this is just Logic with a new paint job"...now - that I might agree with...but it's more than just a "paint job" - it's the functionality at the core of the application that's getting messed with. And generally not for the better. Aside from all the bugs, the application is sluggish compared to previous versions of Logic. Do you sometimes use track folders, by any chance? How have you gotten on with that in L8?

So, would you agree that Logic looks a lot like Garageband these days...? How about Aperture too? Do you honestly prefer that new toolbox...er, list?

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

If Apple were truly dumbing the program down with "blunderdates", as you call them, then they would be actively stripping out features.

?!! Eh? You are kidding, right..?

Am I understanding you correctly here? Are you now telling me that Apple are NOT removing features...? (the output selector in the sample edit window is just one essential feature that immediately springs to mind - isn't that a feature?)...how about when Apple removed the Audio Configuration Window!! Did that one just quietly 'slip by you' unnoticed?! Ok, they put the copy and paste function back, but only after an outcry...however, the ACW had other features that were very very useful, that are still missing and more than likely won't be reinstated, such as "Remove all Plugins"...I could think of more, however, I'm getting pretty bored of all this twaddle so erm, anyway, your point again, being...?

[macleodgrant]

i've got so many people on to macs cos i think they're great and i think their products are great but logic 8 has definitely disappointed me. it's not so much the features, fine, they took some away and added some, yeah it's crap but it happens!

what really gets my down is all the bugs and weird behaviour of some features. there are so many it's just ridiculous (i've lost count). i've listed many of them on here and i can reproduce most of them too! a current bug that is really getting me down is that i can't disable 'solo safe' on one of my tracks. i do it, but when i open the song, it's enabled again! i don't have time for that crap. i've said it before and i'll say it again,
THE LOGIC PROGRAMMERS DON'T PAY ATTENTION TO DETAIL - digidesign does!

perhaps it's an apple thing but for the most part i like their other apps.

why can't you disable the following of the view of the screen to the playhead in soundtrack pro????? final cut pro too but i haven't checked V6

[macleodgrant]

i don't understand why so many people defend logic, if i can reproduce an issue on different songs on different computers, it's an issue!

i'm sick of workarounds and i've worked on logic long enough to find my way around some of the issues but it's just not right! work on pro tools for a while and you'll see a program that works very well and expectedly. i'm not talking features or even stability here, i'm just referring to the way the features work as you expect them to.

[Tantrum The Cat]

Originally Posted by rosewoodstrat

Am I understanding you correctly here? Are you now telling me that Apple are NOT removing features...? (the output selector in the sample edit window is just one essential feature that immediately springs to mind - isn't that a feature?)...how about when Apple removed the Audio Configuration Window!! Did that one just quietly 'slip by you' unnoticed?! Ok, they put the copy and paste function back, but only after an outcry...however, the ACW had other features that were very very useful, that are still missing and more than likely won't be reinstated, such as "Remove all Plugins"...I could think of more, however, I'm getting pretty bored of all this twaddle so erm, anyway, your point again, being...?

I gotta be honest with you here: I can count on ONE hand the number of times I actually used the Audio Configuration Window in previous versions of Logic... seriously!

So yes, that one did indeed "slip by me unnoticed". I've simply not needed it to use it, almost ever.

AGAIN, my point here is that everyone uses Logic a little differently, and the complaints people have had here on the 'Slutz are things that I personally haven't witnessed. Your original post presumes to speak for everyone that uses Logic 8, and I'm trying to tell you that my own dealings with it have been largely POSITIVE. That doesn't make me an ant, a sheep, or any other analogy you care to make. It simply means that I've had experiences that are DIFFERENT from your own!!!


C'est ca.

[rosewoodstrat]

Originally Posted by macleodgrant

i don't understand why so many people defend logic, if i can reproduce an issue on different songs on different computers, it's an issue!

Absolutely, yes.

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

If Apple were truly dumbing the program down with "blunderdates", as you call them, then they would be actively stripping out features. That's not what I see here

Glasses?

Originally Posted by Tantrum The Cat

So yes, that one did indeed "slip by me unnoticed". I've simply not needed it to use it, almost ever.

C'est ca.

An entire audio config window? You never once needed to move a plugin from one slot to another...or change the order of a plugin FX chain? the ACW was also the place where you gain access to labeling the I/O (imagine a patchbay and a few interfaces about now - labelling's sort of an essential...?..no..?)

Ciao.