Spring Pro Tools rant area

[Umlaaat]

arrgghh..

every other post is directly or indirectly related to this ****ing app.

I realize it is the industry norm and yadda yadda, but there are so many other alternatives out there. Other alts that sound better and are more cost effective.

I've got a gripe with Digi bc/ its the cheapest, stingiest corporation around.

On all levels. From their drivers being optimised to work with 3rd party apps to the build of their hardware to their public denial about certain things which only change when the entire AE community bitches about it in forums like these...

I dunno.. To me, it's synonymous to 9 yr. old children in Laos working for Nike. Or at least has that same vibe to it...

If you look at the build quality of a digi192 vs. a Motu HD 192 vs. price vs. sound quality... On conversion quality only, on a blindfold a/b, you wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I realize a large incentive for people to invest so much $ is the client factor, but come on....

dfegad Its SO ugly.

[syra]

Although I really don't "love" Digi at all, I disagree with most of your points...

PT is the most stable app out there.
Only until very recently the integration found in PT systems with all of their components was a dream for other companies.
PT doesn't sound bad. It just sounds different from an analog board.
As far cost goes, when it comes down to DSP driven systems (the only real stable way IMO) Digi stills rules the game...they could be cheaper...but they get the job done more reliably than anyone out there...

Yes, you don't have some of the special features that Steinberg and Emagic offer but...you have a few that work great...the key here is quality over quantity...

peace

[cajonezzz]

Originally posted by Umlaaat

I dunno.. To me, it's synonymous to 9 yr. old children in Laos working for Nike. Or at least has that same vibe to it...

uh....ok. ?

I'm with you. I think from now on when a "client factor" calls me up and asks if he can mix/track/overdub in our room on his FW drive with his PRO TOOLs shitty sounding LE files, I'm gonna just say no.

No. I will convince them to transfer their files to either DP, Logic, or ADAT (all of which I own) Just to spite those money grubbing bastards...Digi

Or better yet, I'll move over to my buddies place and get it all to 2 inch where it belongs. And mix through their new API legacy.
Maybe I'll kick in and help him pay the xtra $$$ to work there too!!! cause godammit. Pro Tools sounds like ass and I don't like em.

[doug_hti]

I don't know enough of the politics to understand the hostility, maybe sometime I'll hear enough legitimate stories...but...

Not speaking for pro tools LE, SOME of the reasons that digi (TDM Systems) will continue to be talked about and used throughout the professional community is

-stability when within "compatibility" guidelines
-guaranteed system performance achieved by
-host based processing power
-track count not taxing cpu
-extensive in house testing
-minimal latency
-available technicians that can maintain systems
-continual updates and developments
-they aren't a new startup company

If they were to become compatible with other companies, they would not be able to support hardware to the same level they currently do (again, not talking about LE), whether this is good or bad, I don't know.

And if you're the owner of a company that is responsible for maybe 30 workstations in a post house or rental company, then who would you currently choose, with the options available....seriously...
would you feel good about the support and stability that those rigs have to offer. Would you feel comfortable recording a 100 piece orchestra with picture playback.

I know people want to hear the name "pro tools", but I don't think compatibility is that big of an issue, it's not that hard to print tracks no matter what app you are on.

Those of you that can simply use daws as glorified tape machines and not do loads of fast paced overdubs and processing while monitoring through the daw probably have LOTS more quality options than the folks that can't.

Originally posted by cajonezzz
uh....ok. ?

I'm with you. I think from now on when a "client factor" calls me up and asks if he can mix/track/overdub in our room on his FW drive with his PRO TOOLs shitty sounding LE files, I'm gonna just say no.

No. I will convince them to transfer their files to either DP, Logic, or ADAT (all of which I own) Just to spite those money grubbing bastards...Digi

Or better yet, I'll move over to my buddies place and get it all to 2 inch where it belongs. And mix through their new API legacy.
Maybe I'll kick in and help him pay the xtra $$$ to work there too!!! cause godammit. Pro Tools sounds like ass and I don't like em.

he or she did say that they "realize a large incentive for people to invest so much $ is the client factor".... if so many people are worrying about the quality difference between lavry vs. benchmark (and other such "minimal" concerns) , why not protools vs other software options that might, on a personal level, be more intuitive and better sounding? i find that digital performer (which is the only other software platform besides for pt ive really used) has some feature that i feel pt really lacks, the ability to layer soundbites being one off the top of my head. i cant speak on sound quality as thats some thing i havent compared.

not that i totally disagree with your pov, just that i find it a bit strong.

[Jules]

Rave on.....

[Sir Dingo]

Originally posted by syra
PT is the most stable app out there.

...NO, you're confusing PT with an iZ RADAR.

PT doesn't sound bad. It just sounds different from an analog board.

...Well, PT can't sound as good as an analog board because it's simply not an analog board. It's not as punchy or warm. "Good" and "Bad" are subjective terms...

Digi stills rules the game...they could be cheaper...but they get the job done more reliably than anyone out there.

...NO, it does not. Again you're confusing PT with RADAR.

Yes, you don't have some of the special features that Steinberg and Emagic offer...

...AGREED, PT does not have the features of other products. We use Logic as a software platform for PT at our studio. This sort of "alternative" to PT software, whilst still using PT hardware is quite common...

Dingo

[toolstudio]

Originally posted by Sir Dingo
...NO, you're confusing PT with an iZ RADAR.

Hi,

yes I have to agree with Sir Dingo,...

We are using IZ Radar since many moons for tracking if we track digital, all other tracking go to a Studer A800 MkIII.

We use PT HD with Apogee Converters in mixing situation, but mostly run Digital Performer on it.
We only use digital as an aditional tape machine, as we are running an SSL room with plenty of outboard gear, mixing to 1/2" and parallel to PT.

I swear not to post to any of that PT/Digital hype, but I need to, as I wouldn't personaly lay my investment in one company which works that aggressive. We have the cheapest PT HD to the cheapest price we could get, no plug ins, nothing. So I'm not loosing that much when the PT hype got over.

If you seriously look at the situation and know some insiders you would be careful to invest in PT and some other companies.
Look how Apple folded the AVID market with their Final Cut. And that is just the beginning.
I always thaugh that these AVID things are world standart (like PT now).
Beginning 2004 we started our DVD mastering division and carefully choosed the working spaces. We talked to many media installers, all are avid dealers, and definitly (i'm honest) told us to go the Final Cut route as they had no point
in investing in Avid.

I know I moved in topic, but that was something which made me seriously thinking.

We brainstormed with one of our engineers about getting another HD farm, but came to the conclusion to expand our SSL with 16 more channels.

O.k. now time to get some more Neve and Api Modules, some Pultecs,..... and.... yes another 1176


wolfgang

toolhouse studios, germany

[BrianK]

>>PT doesn't sound bad. It just sounds different from an analog board.<<

Yes, it does. Well, not BAD, just not good sound quality. Yet. Do NOT compare it to an 827 Studer 2" 24 track, which is also NOT great sound. If you hear a 3M 2"16 track (or Ampex) you'll hear a BIG difference. ProTools does allow you to do all sorts of things like fix bad music to make it polished bad music. It can also be used on good music too...

BTW - most analog boards sound bad too - especially ones from the 1980's. Bad sound, we are just used to it now.... we are.


I realized the other day that "modern sound" is more and more like the music you hear when cell phones ring!!

[Umlaaat]

stability? Logic is stable as pt. in years, it has crashed maybe 3 or 4 times.
i don't want this to turn ito a logic vs pt thread, but this is to sow there are other apps that are on the level.

now the horsepower issue: on computers today, apps can run with enough dsp to pretty much do what you need to. anyone running sessions with 256+ tracks, waves on each, altiverb type reverbs on the busses key compressions, etc, can find this on new macs.

also, dedicated dsp cards that uad-1 and tc and I'm sure a gang of others will introduce in the near future can provide...

i gues the thing that really gets me is the amount of $ shittydesign charges for their bullshit. the quality of the make does not justify the amout they charge. not to ANY relative degree... hennce my comment of the 9 yr old in laos.

hopefully the final cut (with its apple annexed) analogy will apply to shittydesign with apple and logic.

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally posted by toolstudio
Look how Apple folded the AVID market with their Final Cut.

Folded? Avid dumped Apple at the high end and most of their customers followed Avid into PC land. Final cut rules the low-end where 3/4" video used to rule and indeed they hurt Avid's low-end products.

Any added cost of Pro Tools is utterly meaningless for anybody who is actually billing clients.

[Rab]

These threads alway seem to turn into ProTools vs. EverythingElse. A lot of the time PT is used simply as a tracking machine & audio editor... all the "nice stuff" happens outside the box.

If your rig is set up correctly you're working with a known quantity. If you're passing session material between studios/ editors the next guy can pick it up easily - and that's very important to me. The editing and automation are elegant and straightforward. I think it would be hard to argue these points convincingly.

It may not be the "best value", but beyond a point that's not really an issue... you just want the f*@king thing to work, and compared to losing clients, the extra £££ become insignificant. No platform is going to do it for everybody, but if I walk into an engineering gig, I'm really really glad to see PT on the monitors. I guess something had to become the "industry standard"... and frankly it could have been a lot worse.

Hey... if you don't like it, who's twisting your arm to use it? Get on with your job with whatever tool you prefer.

[Ruphus]

I've got a gripe with Digi bc/ its the cheapest, stingiest corporation around.

Guess you havn´t observed Steinjerk, Waves or NI yet. I wouldn´t think Digi to be the stingiest of all. ( Also consider they gave away BF plugs lately for free.)

Actually, I like the company better than their ( LE ) product. Very liberal, they let me say what I want on the DUC, even rant about their product and regularly rave about third party stuff as being better.
I know other manufacturers aren´t always so liberal.

The editing and automation are elegant and straightforward. I think it would be hard to argue these points convincingly.

Agreed on the automation, but not at all on the editing. Samplitude runs circles around it ...
and on top sounds better.

Ruphus

[PhillyFolk]

As one of two people on planet earth who didn't do his homework when upgrading to Mac's new OS Tiger 10.5 (the worst ever, and I've been using Macs since '84), I of course went to power up my $50K studio and found that I was SOL. Geez, I have been paying for upgrades for so many years I could have an HD system, and now both Digidesign and Apple fail to send out e-mails advising us that we shouldn't do the upgrade, if we planned on recording music for the next 6-9 months!

I read where my colleague thinks Protools is the best sounding AD/DA platform around. Well, I had to buy a whole new rig to work on my latest album, and made the choice to migrate to Apogee's new Ensemble. Yo, Protools lovers, I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day of the week and twice on Sundays with Apogee. I'm running Apple Pro Logic, which I may jettison for Nuendo later, but for $2K you can have an HD system of your very own. The 002 is history, or mothballed until Digidesign gets off the golf cart and updates the code to comply with 10.5.1 Mac OS. Please remind me why China has hijacked our entire manufacturing base in the US of A?

Apogee is the bomb! It's just as good as Protools HD in terms of specs and sound quality. But, it's priced for the real world! If Digidesign had not left me in the cold, I would never had known how much the world can change for a few grand. I encourage all Protools users to explore Apogee. I may even jettison my Mac as the attitude in Cupertino is getting a bit haughty, and it's always the little guy who gets stepped on. If both Apple and Digidesign took a sober look at Microsoft, they would see they are marching down the same path. Soon, we'll all be sharing apps off of Google. The Apogee on the other hand is the keeper! http://www.gearslutz.com/board/image...ies/nu/061.gif

[Tony Shepperd]

I'm glad for you Philly that you found a platform you like.

But anyone who has been using Macs since 1984, should know better than to upgrade to an OS, that has not been approved by the manufacture, of the gear he needs to run.

What since does that make!?

[salvomix]

I am amazed that this thread still gets people livid...

Oldest rant since Hhhhmmmm, I don't know...

www.salvomix.com

[Goliath|Audio]

Originally Posted by PhillyFolk

As one of two people on planet earth who didn't do his homework when upgrading to Mac's new OS Tiger 10.5 (the worst ever, and I've been using Macs since '84), I of course went to power up my $50K studio and found that I was SOL. Geez, I have been paying for upgrades for so many years I could have an HD system, and now both Digidesign and Apple fail to send out e-mails advising us that we shouldn't do the upgrade, if we planned on recording music for the next 6-9 months!

I read where my colleague thinks Protools is the best sounding AD/DA platform around. Well, I had to buy a whole new rig to work on my latest album, and made the choice to migrate to Apogee's new Ensemble. Yo, Protools lovers, I'll take the Pepsi challenge any day of the week and twice on Sundays with Apogee. I'm running Apple Pro Logic, which I may jettison for Nuendo later, but for $2K you can have an HD system of your very own. The 002 is history, or mothballed until Digidesign gets off the golf cart and updates the code to comply with 10.5.1 Mac OS. Please remind me why China has hijacked our entire manufacturing base in the US of A?

Apogee is the bomb! It's just as good as Protools HD in terms of specs and sound quality. But, it's priced for the real world! If Digidesign had not left me in the cold, I would never had known how much the world can change for a few grand. I encourage all Protools users to explore Apogee. I may even jettison my Mac as the attitude in Cupertino is getting a bit haughty, and it's always the little guy who gets stepped on. If both Apple and Digidesign took a sober look at Microsoft, they would see they are marching down the same path. Soon, we'll all be sharing apps off of Google. The Apogee on the other hand is the keeper!

n00b. Seriously, you don't read the system requirements? You didn't even back up your old system before you upgraded? I will seriously disagree with you on the whole Applegee thing. The converters sound good, but that is not new news to Pro Tools users.

Yes, I did do the Apogee/Logic setup with a Mac Pro and Symphony system. Editing is a total PITA, Mixing was a joke and the latency to performance was totally embarrasing. I was so happy to be at home again with Pro Tools.

[heyman]

"ProTools does allow you to do all sorts of things like fix bad music to make it polished bad music"


I think that is a quote that Digi should put on their website.. After all, thats what alot of "engineers" need to do nowadays to try and salvage a recording..

Wow, imagine a world where people actually know how to play their instruments, in tune, in time and with feel...

Thats why I use a RADAR.... have no problem telling someone to go home and practice. Having to Autotune and grid edit an entire song is a joke. This is art isnt it? I consider myself a musician as well, not a Magician... I not David Fuking Copperfield.. Magically poof... all your suckiness has now gone away..

[Tony Shepperd]

Originally Posted by heyman

"Pro Tools does allow you to do all sorts of things like fix bad music to make it polished bad music"


I think that is a quote that Digi should put on their website.. After all, thats what alot of "engineers" need to do nowadays to try and salvage a recording..

Wow, imagine a world where people actually know how to play their instruments, in tune, in time and with feel...

Thats why I use a RADAR.... have no problem telling someone to go home and practice. Having to Autotune and grid edit an entire song is a joke. This is art isnt it? I consider myself a musician as well, not a Magician... I not David Fuking Copperfield.. Magically poof... all your suckiness has now gone away..

It's still a business.
That's why it's called the music BUSINESS!

If RADAR makes sense for your business model, then go with it.
But after being a hardcore RADAR user and beta tester for over 6 years... I finally had to leave.
It wasn't conducive for bringing in the business anymore.

And as far as art, there is an art to engineering. Whether it's Pro Tools or RADAR.
Art has to be created... pick your way of creating it and make some money.

[zboy2854]

Was there really a need for someone to resurrect a 3 year old thread, and a tired, old useless one at that?

The whole PT sucks/vs. other DAW issue is even more tired than Mac vs. PC. They all do the job. Make some friggin music.

[heyman]

Tony, great point..

I dont have a problem with pro tools at all. I have a problem with lazy, unrehearsed musicians and engineers... I have a problem with the way some of this stuff is marketed... I have no problem with change and doing things better and faster..

If Protools allows a engineer/producer/musicains to grow...Fine..!

If protools keeps you competitive, great...!

Take care..

[johnbohn]

I'll write this in caps because I think it deserves it. PRO TOOLS SHOULD HAVE A NEW PLAYLIST AND/OR DUPLICATE PLAYLIST HOTKEY.

[Goliath|Audio]

Originally Posted by johnbohn

I'll write this in caps because I think it deserves it. PRO TOOLS SHOULD HAVE A NEW PLAYLIST AND/OR DUPLICATE PLAYLIST HOTKEY.

I could see how that would be handy. But you are posting this on the wrong boards to get noticed.