project 2 sessions in, material not cutting it

[JayCrouch]

Here's the situation in short. Local young pop-rock band that I "scouted" - and decided to do 3-4 "singles" for them for spec.

Band had a great live element, and although young -seemed like they could play their parts straight through with minimal work to be done.

Did one day of drums for three tunes, and another day of bass. After doing both, I am not only certain that I can do slightly better with the drumsound needed (in the kick and side snare mostly) - but I feel there are way too many "sloppy" parts in the drum takes. Basically the material I play back I am not impressed with in any fashion, and want to scrap things and start over.

I am now feeling I need to have concerte scratch guitar and vocal parts laid down. having these set I can work on guitar / bass / vocals as I need to - and have a template for the song.

With this young drummer, I feel I need to have the rest of the song set it place, so he only has x amount of room to do his thing, and this will give me a way to coach him into what to play and for him to just try to stick to it.

the band is pissy that I want to scrap things, we will be taking this to an SSL room later on - and they are convinced the SSL room with "take care of everything", thats where I start to get pissy with them, and it has been bad vibes the past two days. That and a lead singer that wants to be present on everything, yet doesnt contribute.

anyone have any good suggestions for putting a firm foot down, and making them comply or not having this done. After all, I am taking this on for free, which is unspoken word that it's my deal for the mostpart... That and this band cant afford to pay me, or anyone else local that will make them sound anything more than your average vs-1880 demo.

someone at least tell me I'm right for wanting to post in the "moan zone"

[Bob Olhsson]

I'd bring them back in to record and edit live basic rhythm tracks. It isn't appropriate to turn a decent live band into Steely Dan especially if they don't have great overdubbing chops.

[5down1up]

i know you know that already , anyway

if you liked their live feel , let em play live .
its not good 4 any musician doing overdubs ( its like cutting a conversation word by word ... wonder what that sounds like ) .
most people are doing " too much "editing with their daws , especially compin vocals . I HATE THAT
but i feel what you are saying , the musicians should be able to play their parts right when you are recording , no matter how .
you can raise their skills during a session , but i could never change an ok player into a killer during one day tut

if you feel uncomfortable working with em , cancel it , for both sides freedom .

good luck

[Jay Kahrs]

That's kind of a tough one. If things really aren't working out you should cut your losses and move on. If you're the one putting up your time on the project and producing then it's your way or the highway. If the band isn't up to snuff and the chops aren't there you can try to edit basic takes but I wouldn't go in and move every drum hit and things like that. I'd rather hear a band with good energy then a perfect performance. But, you know what you want out of them.

If this spec work are they going to release it? That's a big no-no in my book. Almost nobody gets a free demo from me though there are exceptions to the rule. Either way, it shouldn't be a big loss to you if you're producing and they don't like it. Sometimes things just don't work out and personalites clash and you can't do anything about it.

[vsl666]

i agree with the other guys drop it ...

as u and i know they are at the bottom of a big mountain
and that means alot of hard work 4 u

this is ok if eveyone gets on but even then all to often in the rare
cases where folk aKTOOLY get good and move on up they just tend to drop you anyhow ....

its a saddley familiar tale ...they are displaying THE attributes

not sorted but big attitude... bound to think they are better than you when the big bad wolf whispers in their sweet young ears ...


fuk um




i mean its ment to be fun right ?

[Henchman]

Reading your post already tells me it's pointless. I would walk away form it. They obviously already have rockstar-itis.

[davemc]

Yeah I normally always record a band down live and try to keep everything. If they think it is a scratch vocal they will not put the effect into it and it rubs off on the rest of the band.

A lot of young musos think you can just Pro Tools it and all will be well.
What they play in the room is what comes back in the speakers, if they start blaming you or think it can be fixed later then its timme to move on.

Side note I work with a lot of young bands who do not get fussed that the track speeds up and slows down and that the guitar sound is like shit. WHY? As that is what they hear in rehearsal everytime. When you A/B it with a well known artist they say well they recorded in a big studio so it sounds bigger.
I will say well they can play the songs better and have there sounds down so that is why they sound better.

Damn! I must have forgotten to press send on my post on this..

In short it was

Either

1) treat it as an exercise to Pro Tools it to death

2) Burn off files in WAV form on a set of CDR's (and a back up) give it to them and show them the door wishing them luck. I feel if you call a halt, it's not cool for their music to be trapped in your studio forever.

[ddavid]

Your way or the h'way

P.S.
I had this problem with a band that was really good "LIVE" but when it came to 'recording' (headphone mixes, being isolated, o-dubbing etc) they did not do well.
here is something that worked for me...might not for everyone but the band was reeeal happy and so was I because it lent itself to very little time on the project:
1. I have a 4 JBL G-2's with Sub set up in the recording room (recording room has a stage to the side) w/ a mackie 1642 VLZ I believe....I used the 8 direct outs....EVERYONE PLUGGED IN DIRECT
2. Band rented V-Drums; guitarist used my Yamaha DG Stomp; bassist used the Bass Sans Amp DI; singer sang away from the crowd a bit...
Track 1 kick; 2 - snare - 3/4 drums stereo - 5- bass- 6-gtr- 7 vox 8- room
3. The Band Played LOUD AND 'LIVE'...no leakage...quick session.
4. Everyone Pleased

I'm not saying this works for everyone but I have used this method TWICE now with positive results for CLIENT and myself...its not the answer for everyone but it worked...hope this helps and good luck...d

[JayCrouch]

quick update, for those who might care

laid down the law with the band - had a whole talk about how much I liked them, blah blah - to get things off on a good note, then went in for the kill. Started with some talk about various albums that they like, and I would go into little stories talking about how I knew a guy that knew a guy that knows that the album was done this way and that - and that's the way I want to do things. Basically told them that I am not recording anything "real" until we have rock solid bar to the bar in the computer scratch tracks - and they work out everything they want to do - basically no room for further writing on their behalf during the recording progress.

That, and thanks to the advice of Mr. Kahrs I got alittle contract action down, basically estimating the value of my time per song, and that when they get signed, they are liable to that amount, works for me.

oh, and at one point the drummer did say "man, the snare is ok - the compressors on the ssl are the shit, when we get it in that room you will lay back and be happy" - then it would be the point that I said "the ssl doesnt have beat detective on it, nor can it remove the click leakage from your cans" - made the mistake of giving the drummer the click on one knob of the furman hr-6, and he apparanly put it to 11.

next session I'm going to bust out a "where are all the girls from your highschool, they are welcome on that extra couch over there....."

[vsl666]

well played jay *nodding*

boy cant wait till u show that drummer what ssl comps
will really do to his drums *LOL*madd

keep us posted

hope the good attitutes keep comming

[Henchman]

I can't wait for the drummer to show YOU how theose ssl comps work. he seems to know the console quite well.

[vsl666]

naaa if he had ever used one he would know they
are no good on drums ...

tut

yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy yuktyy