Was I out of line? Engineering job inquiry.

[ToddF]

I need some opinions on if I was having a bad attitude.
I received this email.

I am trying to help a friend relocate to the Twin Cities. Is there any chance you have or know of an opening for an audio engineer?

Thanks a lot!

I responded with this.

No.

I would suggest your friend try to find a job himself as even if I did have an opening it would seem strange having a friend looking.

This kind of job requires selfstarters and that wouldn’t make a good impression.

Just trying to help.
I suggest he look for internships, especially if he doesn’t have experience.

Every engineer I have hired has been an intern.

Good Luck.

They responded with this

A simple NO would have sufficed. My friend is working 60+ hours a week in a studio right now, so trying to find a job in a new state has been a little exhausting. There are never job postings for this field, as I'm sure you know, so I was just trying to be a good friend and help him do a little legwork. As a businesswoman myself, your attitude tells me a lot about how you conduct business. Maybe you should think about this before you start throwing out opinions and judgements. Every other studio I've emailed in the Twin Cities has been eager to offer helpful tips on who might have openings, etc. It's simply good business to put forth a positive image at all times.

Now keep in mind I get emails and calls everyday with people looking for jobs, internships etc. I try to help aspiring engineers as much as I can. We have interns here everyday and we love them. My newest part time engineer was our best of the most recent interns and had experience.

opinions?

Thanks Todd

[alexstringer]

I can rely a a friend to hook me up with a girl or do some shopping for me but i'd never ask him to look for a job for me.
As you says, it gives a pretty bad impression to start with....

[lowfreq33]

No, you were just being honest. I don't care how busy you are, how long does it take to send an e-mail? Or give the friend your e-mail password and have her send it from your account? If we're talking about "presenting the best image at all times", showing that you care enough to make your own contacts would be a good place to start. Maybe she was looking for the old "unfortunately we don't have any openings right now" line, but personally I'd rather get a short no than a long no.

[DontLetMeDrown]

You were not in the wrong. You tried to help, but you didn't give her what she wanted to hear so she became a bitch. I'm glad I don't have someone like that "helping" me.

[artbeat77]

I don't think your reply looks rude either. She obviously has some emotional attachment to her friend and got defensive. She came across sounding co-dependent.

[Geoffrey]

Your response was positive, supportive, helpful. Her's on the other hand..

[AlexLakis]

Sounds like she's been hanging out on Gearslutz too much lately...

[swisha31]

well for one, she didn't say that HE ASKED her to do it for him, she said she felt like HELPING him find something while he looked around other places also so I really think all of you are jumping to judgement extremely fast. Everybody needs help at some point and for her to help him find a job while he looks for jobs also is being a great friend. on the other hand, her writing the email in anger was also a bad thing too and people like her are the reason why I myself can't find an asst engineering position anywhere because they leave a bad taste in engineer/studio manger's mouth. I've sent resume's and called multiple studios around the nation and I have no doubt that some of them have been treated like this. A few of the studio managers have been very rude and short with me but i'm a firm believer in karma also so whether they will need me one day or will need somebody else and they will get done how they did me, it will all work itself out.

[MrHope]

It seems like both parties acted with no malice. Each party was just doing what they needed to do according to the situation and according to their ethics. If you put yourself in either person's shoes it can go either way. There's no winner, no loser here. No, I'm not trying to be "politically correct"; I really do see things that way.

[PettyCash]

You werent having a BAD attitude with your response, but what I can say is that you were having the WRONG attitude.

As much as its good to be straight up, you still have to consider the feelings of others. Having an I dont care who she is, or who her friend is and what they want type of attitude shows your current type of mindset at that moment, in regards to caring and helping for others.

If you have to come here and question yourself about this manner, than you have already answered your own question.
You conscience is bothering you right now because you know how you handled the situation was not morally right.

The type of people that are quick to shoot off at the mouth, or at their keyboard, are the same type of people that others tend to not like, even if others dont come out and confront you about it directly.

I think in your position, you should have said what you said in a more assertive manner due to the nature of how she came to you with her question. Your response might have been too aggressive in the sense that you talked down to her and tried to make her look like an idiot for trying to help out a friend.

I doubt that she needed you to tell her all that stuff, and for all we know she could have been more intelligent than you. As well you don't totally understand the motives behind why she would want to try and find a new job placement for her friend behind her friends back, I myself wouldnt want to bother spending time trying to figure that out, so just like she said, the best thing to say would have been a simple no. As an alternative you could have not responded to the email at all, or redirect her to another source where she can ask this same question. Any of those would have been better than how you handled the situation.

Remeber:
Do onto others, as you would have them do onto you....

Try and keep this in mind.

[PettyCash]

Originally Posted by MrHope

It seems like both parties acted with no malice. Each party was just doing what they needed to do according to the situation and according to their ethics. If you put yourself in either person's shoes it can go either way. There's no winner, no loser here. No, I'm not trying to be "politically correct"; I really do see things that way.

Do you even know what you are talking about?
Did you read the thread and miss something, or is it that you just dont have the ability to understand what you read?
What you said has absolutely no insightful relation towards the situation thats being talked about on this thread.
How do you guage winners and losers out of this? What does winners and losers have to do with anything here?
What you are saying makes some sense, BUT not towards what we are talking about in regards to this current situation, so dont try to be a smart *ss and act dumb.

Was that a nice way to word what I just said?
No of course not, but I was just doing what I felt I needed to do according to this situation, and according to YOUR ethics.....

Maybe now you can actually put yourself in that woman's shoes and in ToddF's shoes, and understand what is really being talked about here and put forth some helpful comments.

[narcoman]

does it really matter?

You responded how you felt without being rude. She responded because she didnt like being told something she didn't want to hear. Again, she wasn't rude. I think she was a little out of order telling you she was concerned about "how you run your business" - I suspect she's what we call a "busy body" - more concerned with others affairs than keeping her own in order. I dont see anything wrong in her helping out a friend though.

Years ago, when i was running a demo studio, I had a band come into the studio just to check it out. I talked about what we did and what soprt of music we were good at, and what sort we were not so good at. His band came into that. Anyway, i phoned him up a couple of days later to see if they wanted to book. He gave me the lecture of "bad attitude" and "im surprised you're in business" just because i told him i felt that our studio probably wasnt the best for his music (we were doing LOADS of electro-dance music and didnt have a great live room - early 90's, he was in a Steely Dan type band). Some people are just weird!!

Oh, and if here name has the initials S-A G then run a mile!!!

[zaczac]

Originally Posted by PettyCash

If you have to come here and question yourself about this manner, than you have already answered your own question.
You conscience is bothering you right now because you know how you handled the situation was not morally right.

Not trying to pick a fight pettycash, but I think there is another option. Todd seems like a nice guy, and is going through a moment of self doubt about said niceness because of this other persons agressive response. If someone questions my "morals" then I tend to become overly self analytical about myself. I don't know Todd, but it seems like he's in the same boat. At the very most, Todd could have been a tiny touch more diplomatic just to be on the safe side, but I certainly wouldn't question his morals.


I certainly don't think you should loose any sleep over it Todd. You seem like a thoughtful guy to me.

[e-cue]

Originally Posted by ToddF

opinions?

IMO, I think you should post the person's name so other people in the Twin Cities can watch out for him/her/them.

Someone asks you for a job lead, then insults you like you owe them something? fuuck them

I would not have responded so nicely.

[psycho_monkey]

Originally Posted by ToddF

I need some opinions on if I was having a bad attitude.
I received this email.

I am trying to help a friend relocate to the Twin Cities. Is there any chance you have or know of an opening for an audio engineer?

Thanks a lot!

I responded with this.

No.

I would suggest your friend try to find a job himself as even if I did have an opening it would seem strange having a friend looking.

This kind of job requires selfstarters and that wouldn’t make a good impression.

Just trying to help.
I suggest he look for internships, especially if he doesn’t have experience.

Every engineer I have hired has been an intern.

Good Luck.

They responded with this

A simple NO would have sufficed. My friend is working 60+ hours a week in a studio right now, so trying to find a job in a new state has been a little exhausting. There are never job postings for this field, as I'm sure you know, so I was just trying to be a good friend and help him do a little legwork. As a businesswoman myself, your attitude tells me a lot about how you conduct business. Maybe you should think about this before you start throwing out opinions and judgements. Every other studio I've emailed in the Twin Cities has been eager to offer helpful tips on who might have openings, etc. It's simply good business to put forth a positive image at all times.

Now keep in mind I get emails and calls everyday with people looking for jobs, internships etc. I try to help aspiring engineers as much as I can. We have interns here everyday and we love them. My newest part time engineer was our best of the most recent interns and had experience.

opinions?

Thanks Todd

Well, if she'd said all the information that was put in the 2nd email, in the 1st one, and included a CV/Discography for her friend, then maybe you'd have responded a bit more positively, huh? Having someone who knows nothing about the industry (as she clearly doesn't) look for work for you is potentially damaging - as has been proved.

[swisha31]

Originally Posted by e-cue

IMO, I think you should post the person's name so other people in the Twin Cities can watch out for him/her/them.

Someone asks you for a job lead, then insults you like you owe them something? fuuck them

I would not have responded so nicely.

Well again, there you go jumping to judgement. it wasnt the actual engineer that was offended by the email. it was his friend that was trying to get the job for him. She took the INITIATIVE to try and find a job FOR HIM WITHOUT ASKING HIM TO DO IT. Therefore it isnt his fault that things went array like that. She obviously feels he is up to the job which is why she got so offended and he didn't hear her out like he maybe should have(after all engineers do want the best people working under them).

Blacklisting the person is never the answer especially when you completely misjudged the situation.

[swisha31]

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

The fact that you even replied should reflect well on you. Most times, those types of e-mails go unopened. The inquiry, though from good intentions, was unsolicited.

I would not hire someone that had their significant other call for an inquiry and I would ask for the name of the person so I could be on the look out for his resume. It shows me that they don't consider the opportunity important enough. If I get those types of calls from the actual person, I want to be able to do a mini-interview over the phone to see if they even fit my needs. I hate doing too many in person interviews and this helps me weed out those that wouldn't fit.

Bottom line, we are all busy, and if we want something, we go after it. Personally.

and you just like them didn't read thoroughly. you jumped to conclusions also. it wasnt a significant other for starters and secondly he didnt ask her to do it. she took it upon herself to do that for him.

she obviously doesnt know the unsolicited process. I've gone through that and made phone calls to studio managers just to be able to send my resume but that's because i've interned elsewhere before and this is what i'm involved in. she isnt so you cant fault her for that. she was probably sitting at her computer one day while he was at the studio or something and just did a search, found out the studios in the area and emailed him.

but it still needs to be made clear that the guy didnt ask for her to do this. she took it upon herself to do this and you not fully understanding the situation results in harsh actions.

[The Press Desk at Gearslutz.com]

Hmmm..

I think you helped a person that didn't want to be helped - and got your hand bitten for it.

I remember talking to a crowd of intern aged kids at an AES show about how to get a job in a studio, they didn't ask me, I just felt like telling them - to help them out. As I was talking I got the feeling that about half of them were thinking, 'what a boring ass****' .

Who cares! This sort of misunderstanding happens all the time in everyday life, folks answering a question they weren't asked!

Either blast through life without a backwards glance or analyze every twist and turn and gulp handfuls of Prozac..

[E Orjatsalo]

Originally Posted by swisha31

and you just like them didn't read thoroughly. you jumped to conclusions also. it wasnt a significant other for starters and secondly he didnt ask her to do it. she took it upon herself to do that for him.

but it still needs to be made clear that the guy didnt ask for her to do this. she took it upon herself to do this and you not fully understanding the situation results in harsh actions.

Well, maybe it is the fact that my first language is not english, but I find it very hard to read it from her first e-mail anything about the fact is her friend aware of her trying to help him. There is no indication there whether he's aware of her doings, and actually there is no such indicator in the second e-mail either. Therefore I would have naturally assumed that he is aware, that she is helping him, based on her first e-mail.

And if her friend is now working 60 hours per week, I don't think it is going to be too hard to fiend clients since he obviously has been able to do it before.

[ToddF]

Wow thanks for the opinions.
The only responses that got me scratching my head were when you start talking about feelings.
My wife would have went down that road if I asked her opinion I am sure.

I was trying to help her and her friend by giving advice so that if she emails a studio with an opening they might consider it, instead of blowing it off.

I give advice everyday with clients, upcoming engineers etc. Don't know if the advice is any good but I try and have helped many bands, engineers etc. over the years. So they tell me.

I reponded to her email and tried to point out I was trying to help and she responded I realize now that it's possible you were trying to be helpful, you simply have a very atypical way of showing it.

That was the most positive thing in her email, it went downhill from there. If I am bored some late night and in a bad mood and need to vent it is possible I might send off another to her.

I know I shouldn't and it wouldn't be business like.

Come to think of it one of the reasons I wanted to be in this business is to not have to be business like.

Peace, Todd

[ToddF]

Originally Posted by E Orjatsalo

Well, maybe it is the fact that my first language is not english, but I find it very hard to read it from her first e-mail anything about the fact is her friend aware of her trying to help him. There is no indication there whether he's aware of her doings, and actually there is no such indicator in the second e-mail either. Therefore I would have naturally assumed that he is aware, that she is helping him, based on her first e-mail.

And if her friend is now working 60 hours per week, I don't think it is going to be too hard to fiend clients since he obviously has been able to do it before.

I wouldn't assume this as working can mean many things, interning, assisting etc. She wouldn't answer my questions about what his position, title etc. is where he works.

Todd

[swisha31]

Originally Posted by ToddF

I wouldn't assume this as working can mean many things, interning, assisting etc. She wouldn't answer my questions about what his position, title etc.

Todd

she probably didnt know though. She probably just thought that she could just send an email in as if it was a typical job and get a generic response or helpful response but it snowballed into something that it shouldnt have. Since you are a studio owner though Todd I have a couple questions for you for what I just went through about a month ago, maybe longer. Could you PM so I can ask you a couple of things?

[ToddF]

Swisha you have responded 4 times to the thread, I understand your position.
Feel free to email or PM me anytime.
Thanks Todd

[Jax]

100% agreed with your post, APOH.

Who knows if she even asked her friend if it'd be alright for her to go job hunting for him? Personally, I'd be honored by the thoughtfulness, but I'd want to discuss the matter with my friend before they did anything. And I'd say "That's cool of you, but it would show that I'm serious if I do the job hunting myself."

What friend does anybody have that would disagree with that?

The road to Hell is paved with good intentions. Friends who act on your behalf and then fire off attitude at someone in your field can potentially damage your name. Not good.

What's called for when replying to a job inquiry is a professional, polite, short response. If I got tons of job inquiries (which I don't), I'd have a reply like this already typed up in Word or something:

"Dear _______,

Thank you inquiring about job opportunities here at _______ Studio. Unfortunately, we are not currently looking for interns or other new staff at this time.

If you have not submitted a resume, you are encouraged to do so. We do review them when it's time to hire new staff.

Sincerely,

Me"

If I choose to brush somebody off, I'd rather do it in a polite, pro manner and not have to second guess myself later.

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

The fact that you even replied should reflect well on you. Most times, those types of e-mails go unopened. The inquiry, though from good intentions, was unsolicited.

I would not hire someone that had their significant other call for an inquiry and I would ask for the name of the person so I could be on the look out for his resume. It shows me that they don't consider the opportunity important enough. If I get those types of calls from the actual person, I want to be able to do a mini-interview over the phone to see if they even fit my needs. I hate doing too many in person interviews and this helps me weed out those that wouldn't fit.

Bottom line, we are all busy, and if we want something, we go after it. Personally.

[Brenton]

It's interesting peoples different perspectives, some people think you were nice, some think you were rude and some think you should have been ruder.

If what is written at the start of the thread is word for word, then I think you did have a bad attitude.*

You jumped to a few conclusions:*
1. That the person was a he not a she.*
2. That the person was inexperienced when they may already be a working engineer.*
3. That the person* was too lazy to look for a job.

I think in her position I would have not liked your response...............however I would not have been as rude as she then became. I would have just said thanks for your time.

If your running a business, you have just possibly lost a number of customers. Her and everyone she talks to from now on.

[swisha31]

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

Does a person help a person relocate without telling them about it?



Swisha, do you see anywhere where it says the engineer did not know she was doing this? I interpret what and how she said it, that he knew. And I read it three times to confirm I didn't miss anything.

Your responses on this thread are really defensive. Case in point:


Where exactly does it say this? Since the OP doesn't say either way, we're are all speculating. Unless you have inside info.

If she is involved in business in a professional way, (with her acidic and unprofessional response, I highly doubt she actually is a professional, maybe works for one though) she would know about how unsolicited e-mails and resumes are handled. And Todd went beyond the norm and graciously attempted to help.

A)the mere fact that she couldn't answer anything about his position, titles, or what he does on the job means that he didn't prepare her for this contact

B)Wanting to help a friend relocate and establish contacts for him doesn't mean that she was told to do so, especially since(refer back to A) she can't answer anything about his job duties.

C)Not every business goes by the unsolicited email guidelines and most certainly not every studio so to say she isn't professional because she didn't adhere to an unsolicited rule that not every business follows is ignorant.

D)Obviously Todd didn't go beyond the norm by doing what he did as he has already stated that he has helped many people before and was trying to do so now.

E)I myself am planning to relocate and have told friends in the area that I was planning to relocate there soon. They said they wanted to do anything they could to help. If they contact studios without me knowing, it was because they actually wanted me to have something setup or have information for me so by the time I get there I can have a heads up on things. Does this mean I told them to do so? Absolutely not. Therefore, they are helping me relocate without me having knowledge about sending any emails or calling any studios. Call me crazy but I think that's just being a good friend.

[swisha31]

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

Maybe we just have different perspectives. I am considered a "professional" in my day job, and I am in contact with hundreds of other professionals weekly. So my opinion is coming from that experience, not just my studio or with my audio job.

The fact that she had no info, I would of automatically said, "No thanks" or "send a resume" and I do when I talk to a person with no info that is inquiring about employment. I don't have the time to deal with unknowns and people with no information. Like I said, I want to judge a person's knowledge by talking to them directly. I ask them softball questions about what they should know already. They pass that test, then I call them in for an interview and application. If they don't, why waste both our time?

Your second comment, again, see above.

You are right, not all go by that unsolicited policy. But many and I would say most professional-type businesses do. So her cold-mailing with no info, not a good idea.

Todd did go above the norm, because of what I stated above, which is the norm.

I am glad you have friends that you trust with your reputation. Me, I wouldn't have anyone do that without my explicit permission, because all it would take is the slip of the tongue (or a poor attitude), and you could have some potentially serious rep problems. Especially if they had no idea what they were talking about.

Todd handled it with more patience and helpfulness than I have. I just don't have the time for someone with no info, calling on behalf of someone I have never met or talked to who wants to work for me.

Well I understand your position fully. hahaha and i see you have no patience. But the professional thing, yeah sure a lot of companies do operate like this and a lot don't. It doesn't make them any less professional or you any more professional because a business does or does not have an unsolicited policy. i mean obviously this isn't Todd's first time opening a random email but this doesn't make him unprofessional because he opens emails himself without the people calling first and i'm sure that he also deals with "professionals" weekly.

you know, there was a point in time where the big APOH man didn't always know what to do and didn't always have the right answers. but somebody was patient with him and gave him his chance and he made the best of it. same thing here big man.

[swisha31]

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

Re-read your post. You wonder why you had similar problems? Maybe you think you just deserve a good job without doing your own legwork, I don't know. Nobody just gave me a job, I had to prove myself worthy of any and all employment. Did they take a chance on me, yes. But I had to show that I had the ability and the intelligence to do the job, in the first place. And the amount of schooling and training I have had to obtain to get to where I am today, you have no idea.

I don't have a false sense of entitlement, I have worked extremely hard to get where I am today. And I don't have all the answers, but I have some experience with human resources and some of the methods used to go through resumes and applications. I just tried to share that experience.

You apparently have been stung a couple of times and feel the need to lash out. That's cool. You shouldn't lash out at me, though, maybe, you could use some of what I have said in a constructive manner, to further your chances at employment, but it makes no difference to me. If you had the attitude you just displayed in an interview with me, or even a slight portion of it, our interview would be over. I don't want suck-ups, but I don't want people that are arrogant and feel I owe them a job. But that is just me.

actually that quote that you just copied was an attempt to lighten up the mood of the thread. i have no clue how you got "me lashing out at you" from that. also, i don't feel as if I DESERVE anything. after what you just typed up, it seems as if you are the one that feels you are deserving of what you have. i work hard, have worked hard and have the references to prove it and can get in any studio with anybody and work just as hard as they can. i also don't see where you got me not doing any of my own legwork from. me having friends that are willing to help doesnt mean that i don't call and send resume's myself. assumptions. now the fact that YOU have such a chip on your shoulder and you are so rude shows that you FEEL that you have to be a hardass to get respect which is funny to me. "same thing here" was referring to the situation at hand in the thread, not me. no one said you had a false sense of entitlement. never implied that somebody gave you a handout neither. i said somebody gave you a chance and no matter who you are, you have to prove yourself, this doesnt make you special.

[swisha31]

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

LOL, that just shows how on-line conversations are easy to misconstrue.

Ok, but the "big APOH man" "same here big man" comments didn't come off as being funny on this end, even though I now know you meant them to be.

yeahh man hahaha. that wasn't sarcasm haha. i was wondering why you took that so harshly. i'm not a rude kinda guy unless the situation calls for it. i was trying to be all respectful and lighthearted at the same time but text just doesnt do the job like vocal chords i guess.

[hangman]

i find that often people react to things with their expectations in mind. perhaps she expected a unfriendly response and so took your neither friendly nor unfriendly response as unfriendly.

I didn't think your response was extreme in any way. I thought it was personable. I would be pleased to get a reply at all. in fact, if i was doing it for a friend of mine, and I really believed in them, I may have written back the second time asking if I might put him in touch with you, or ask about interning... something like that.
with a reply at all she at least had some sort of footing. with her reply she more or less threw all of that away, as now you seem to feel attacked for what you thought was helpful advice.

Truth is, her first email was poorly written. nobody writes good letters anymore. she came off like this dude's 16 year old girlfriend.