Software Police on Patrol...

[769mph]

Originally Posted by planseven

From your first post on the Waves visit: When she insisted, I said that I'd look into getting Waves if getting the session depended on it. I then followed up by email saying that I had Waves available and did she want to discuss dates etc; no answer was forthcoming. In actual fact, I didn't have Waves, and was waiting for a confirmed booking before either getting a copy or using one of our regular freelancer engineers who is a licensed user.

...according to Section 16, the copyright statute states that the provisions only come into effect when an unlicensed copy of a copyright has been made in material form; as a computer program in this particular case. The act of claiming to have a copy (to procure a booking, in my case) is not an offence.

In a later post, you write:

The video evidence consists of me showing my computer (without Waves on it) and me saying that although I had a copy of Waves I had never installed it on my computer, never used it and thought that Universal Audio plug ins were better so I would recommend using them instead.

First you say you "didn't have it," then you say you "had a copy." Having a "copy" as you state above sure sounds like "an unlicensed copy of a copyright has been made in a material form." You apparently didn't tell the entire story the first time.

This will likely come down to whether "possession" is as violative of copyright as "use" (insert favorite "Honest officer, that's my friend's crack/weed/coke in my pocket, not mine" story here) Consult an attorney instead of all of the would be barristers here. The first thing s/he will probably tell you is to stop posting about this. You've already admitted online to possessing a copy. Gearslutz probably logs your IP address. Subpoena anyone? (aka "witness summons" in England and Wales)

[kclisby]

Originally Posted by patrox247

I think the more important question is WHO ARE YOU, and WHY ARE THERE SO MANY LOW POST COUNT USERS POSTING ON THIS THREAD?

You really are turning off your legitimate customers with this posting crud!!!
Gearslutz is not the proper place for this.

Agreed...

Too many low count posters with "friends" stories... and even stories of their own... This is foolishness... if the posters are legitimate... Then identify yourself... If not.... Then... Please... get a life....

-Doc

[APOHStudios]

I find it interesting that the number of low post count people/new members seems to be up, especially in threads with a lot of contention. Chances are its just because of increased awareness of the site. Which is cool for the site. Run a Google search on any subject discussed on Gearslutz, and you will see Gearslutz on the results and fairly high up.

First you say you "didn't have it," then you say you "had a copy." Having a "copy" as you state above sure sounds like "an unlicensed copy of a copyright has been made in a material form." You apparently didn't tell the entire story the first time.

This will likely come down to whether "possession" is as violative of copyright as "use" (insert favorite "Honest officer, that's my friend's crack/weed/coke in my pocket, not mine" story here) Consult an attorney instead of all of the would be barristers here. The first thing s/he will probably tell you is to stop posting about this. You've already admitted online to possessing a copy. Gearslutz probably logs your IP address. Subpoena anyone? (aka "witness summons" in England and Wales)

I was wondering about that myself. An unlicensed copy is an unlicensed copy.

[769mph]

Originally Posted by patrox247

I think the more important question is WHO ARE YOU, and WHY ARE THERE SO MANY LOW POST COUNT USERS POSTING ON THIS THREAD?

You really are turning off your legitimate customers with this posting crud!!!
Gearslutz is not the proper place for this.

Wow.

I've posted in many professional forums under my full name. Have you? It doesn't seem to be the habit in this haunt. When in Rome... Do you remember PAN? The CompuServe BP Forum? 2400 baud modems? When connecting Synclaviers across the country at 9600 baud was the $h!7? Do even know what cracking open a case of pancakes smells like? --and no, I don't mean something from Betty Crocker.

I've still got my ProTools version 1.x floppies (kinda quaint next to those big ol' 5-1/4" Synclav floppies). I've been mixing for over 20 years. I own a facility with multiple HD rigs and engineers to run them and you can be damn sure that there is no pirated software on my rigs, on the laptops I provide my engineers or on any other machine at my place. I've fed my kids and put shoes on their feet in spite of direct competitors who I know use pirated software. Do I out them? No. I just keep providing great mixes and kick-ass service. People who resort to shortcuts have shortcomings that will not be solved by piracy, cheating on their taxes, badmouthing the competition or abusing others.

So post count is only the measure of cred, here, eh?

Explain exactly why a discussion of one of the most contentious issues in the studio world for a least a decade doesn't belong here. "Turning off legitimate customers?" What?

[pro]

Just remember that the customer is king.

If this unorthodox software police patrol is in fact true (I have my doubts) then Waves doesn't stand a chance in tomorrows market.

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by pro

Just remember that the customer is king.

If this unorthodox software police patrol is in fact true (I have my doubts) then Waves doesn't stand a chance in tomorrows market.

I think it's been established that it's absolutely true. Reputable industry publications are now reporting on it.

http://futuremusic.com/blog/?p=1744

even better -

http://prosoundnewseurope.com/pdf/ps...st07_Waves.pdf

[seclusion]

As a x-user of the Uad-1 card with it's limited DSP and that it too had it's own (WUP) like upgrade problems (PCI card wouldn't fit into my MacPro) I decided to finally jump into Waves and the iLok system. Though I'm slightly nervous that it will die sometime, I have the SSL bundle and the Ir. Soon will be the API and V series as some $$ come in. But I have to say overall that for $700 for the SSL and there abouts for the IR, I have no problem parting with my $$ to use them. Yes I have run the Gold crack package way back in the V2 era in my PC and really didn't find anything useful.
As long as I can demo it for a couple of weeks I feel that is fair as I hate that I can't sell most software if I don't like it.
I'd rather they cancel all the copy protection and hire more people to come visit my studio and see for themselves. It'd save them $$ and me a headache.
Later

[terminal3]

Originally Posted by seclusion

I'd rather they cancel all the copy protection and hire more people to come visit my studio and see for themselves. It'd save them $$ and me a headache.

This is a very interesting statement.

What this whole campaign of intimidation and lawsuits is showing me (at the least) is that their copy protection system is in fact completely, utterly, 100% useless. Obviously it's neither functional as either an actual anti-piracy system or even as a deterrent if they're actually finding cracks all over the place.

Being that one of the big gripes about Waves is in fact their ridiculous iLok implementation, maybe they ought to look at a new system which is neither restrictive nor difficult to use, since obviously the current system is a complete waste of time.

Since they're going to alienate a lot of people with this BanPiracy(R) program anyway, they might as well endear themselves to others with an easier CP system.

[backplay]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

What would you think about your accountant if he told you he was using a cracked version of quickbooks pro to do your taxes?

If he does my taxes in a good legal way, it's non of my business.
I am not a police officer!
Are you a saint? Did YOU report EVERY cent you EVER made to the IRS?

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

What if you were at a law firm and the staff was bragging that they used a cracked version of MS Office?

Non of my business.
I worked in IT... Well, all i can say is this is common practice.

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

How about the next time your at the market, the checkout staff is pointing out the cracked POS software they are ringing your merchandise with.

Again, non of my business

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

If a recording studio wants to be seen as professional, then they better act professional.

If it is MY studio, it IS my business. And i WILL do it in a professional manner and BUY my software... But NOT Waves if this is their policy.

[Fretbored]

If WAVES is really that desperate for revenue, maybe they should try coming up with more than 3 plugs that are useful.

[octatonic]

We be famous.

ProSoundNews Waves

[vixapphire]

Originally Posted by 769mph

Wow.

I've posted in many professional forums under my full name. Have you? It doesn't seem to be the habit in this haunt. When in Rome... Do you remember PAN? The CompuServe BP Forum? 2400 baud modems? When connecting Synclaviers across the country at 9600 baud was the $h!7? Do even know what cracking open a case of pancakes smells like? --and no, I don't mean something from Betty Crocker.

I've still got my ProTools version 1.x floppies (kinda quaint next to those big ol' 5-1/4" Synclav floppies). I've been mixing for over 20 years. I own a facility with multiple HD rigs and engineers to run them and you can be damn sure that there is no pirated software on my rigs, on the laptops I provide my engineers or on any other machine at my place. I've fed my kids and put shoes on their feet in spite of direct competitors who I know use pirated software. Do I out them? No. I just keep providing great mixes and kick-ass service. People who resort to shortcuts have shortcomings that will not be solved by piracy, cheating on their taxes, badmouthing the competition or abusing others.

Man, I remember when I was a kid I had to walk to and from school everyday and it was 10 miles, uphill both ways.

Talk about resorting to shortcuts: 2400 baud modems? Where were you then when we had it going on with 300 baud Teletype machines?

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by Fretbored

If WAVES is really that desperate for revenue, maybe they should try coming up with more than 3 plugs that are useful.

thank you

[Lagerfeldt]

How about we start using middle eastern punishment?

Chop off the right hand if somebody steals software, then not only will they be justly punished but they can't use the mouse again.

Bonus

[superburtm]

Originally Posted by Lagerfeldt

How about we start using middle eastern punishment?

Chop off the right hand if somebody steals software, then not only will they be justly punished but they can't use the mouse again.

Bonus

how about hang company CEO's of companies that send out spies to to studios

[WeekendWanker]

I don't see anything wrong with what Waves is doing--people, lots of people, are stealing from them and they have come up with a clever way to bust them.

BUT

Given some of the PR problems they already have you would think they would only want to bust more egregious violators they had dead to rights. If the piracy is as widespread as they claim, it should have been no problem for them to find a bunch of big commercial studios that were clearly using huge libraries of cracked Waves plugs on projects they were being paid for. It appears that this program is very widespread and has netted some small fish as well as some innocent ones (equating people who use demo versions on a project with pirates is just plain stupid). This combined with the clandestine nature of it makes Waves look bad—although given some of their other policies, it may well be that they don’t give a crap.

Playing up busts of big studios with a lot of PR would have produced a lot less objection, as most people would agree that using cracks to obtain commercial work is not okay, and would have likely scared a lot of smaller fish into compliance.

[WeekendWanker]

The better analogy would be what if hackers figured out how to get on studio’s hard drives, starting making copies of music files and sold them as part of a music library? What activities would you support to bust these people? My guess is most of you would be fine with warrantless wiretapping and waterboarding.

[backplay]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

And yes, I report all my income to the IRS. Now WTF does this have to do with the discussion?

Wow, you must be one of the 5% of people who do that, congrats, you are a saint

Just making a point that some people acts like if they are holier than the pope.

Chill man, don't take it to personal

[backplay]

Originally Posted by Joe Porto

It isn't about being a saint or being holier than the pope. It's about making an informed decision about who I want to do business with. If a business is using pirated software, and uses that point in promoting their services, that is, to me, a red flag that says they don't have their shit together.

I actually know a software developer (not audio) who is also a musician. He has a pirated copy of every plugin conceivable. He has tried on several occasions to send some to me. I'm not a plugin guy, so I can't say that if I was I wouldn't at least check them out, but the point is...HE'S A SOFTWARE DEVELOPER!

It's like a convenience store owner going around shoplifting at every other store in the neighborhood.

You are wright.
As i said i worked as an IT'er, and i saw more copies then registered versions in all kinds of companies.

But where do you draw the line? Only for audio equipement and software?
-We all know that piracy is a bad thing.
-Would you let your mixes do by somebody who uses SSL or Neve clones? Uses a piece of Behringer gear?
They also STOLE the design of the gear!
-Would you buy from a company (multinational) who stole and exploited from people, other companies, countries or the enviroment? (ok, a bit OT) This happens on a much larger scale than piracy, but these companies are getting stronger by the day because nobody gives a damn.

If you use warez and you get cought, ok buy the software and maybe pay a fine of 10% of the amount you stole.
But not $15.000!!! waves are ruining people with this.
I don't know what waves are trying to achive with this, but they will NEVER get a cent from me!

[backplay]

Did anyone see this: Windows uses pirated software?

One has the suspicion that that the files were generated with the cracked version of Sound Forge 4.5.

Even Microsoft uses pirated software

[WeekendWanker]

Originally Posted by backplay

You are wright.
As i said i worked as an IT'er, and i saw more copies then registered versions in all kinds of companies.

But where do you draw the line? Only for audio equipement and software?
-We all know that piracy is a bad thing.
-Would you let your mixes do by somebody who uses SSL or Neve clones? Uses a piece of Behringer gear?
They also STOLE the design of the gear!
-Would you buy from a company (multinational) who stole and exploited from people, other companies, countries or the enviroment? (ok, a bit OT) This happens on a much larger scale than piracy, but these companies are getting stronger by the day because nobody gives a damn.

Acutally, the terms of software agreements are quite clear from a legal perspective and that's where the line is. The examples you posted are all far less clear as they involve fair use laws (murky indeed) and political perspective (ain't much that's murkier than that!).

If you use warez and you get cought, ok buy the software and maybe pay a fine of 10% of the amount you stole.
But not $15.000!!! waves are ruining people with this.
I don't know what waves are trying to achive with this, but they will NEVER get a cent from me!

Risking a 10% fine wouldn't serve as much of a deterent and it's very common across wide areas of law for plaintifs to cover their legal costs. If someone walked into a guitar center and stole a Les Paul because they needed to check it out and thought the 30 day return policy was too short and too much hassle, they would go to jail and I don't think many would argue that they shouldn't. This might well ruin their lives, but few would argue that it wasn't their own damn fault.

[backplay]

Ok, lets look at it from another angle:

The songs i make that are released on vinyl (yes it still exists) and cd can be downloaded for free on the internet, i've checked it.
I put alot of time, money and effort into it to make my songs, while somebody can just steel them without me making a dime out of it. Dj's can burn it on a cd and make money out of it if they have to play in a club.
But i am not going to start a crusade and collect IP adresses of every person that downloaded my songs. (Actually i don't care but that's another topic)

If 1000 people downloaded my songs, did i loose 1000 times $XXX ? NO, i don't think everybody would buy my stuff if it wasn't on the internet (i'm not that good ).
What i did gain out of it was advertising. More people know my music now and maybe will buy it if they came across it in a shop (at a fair price and without having to pay me every year to listen to it for another year (WUP)!!!).


The same goes for waves i think. Not every kid that downloads it would have bought it if it wasn't on the internet, and 99% of them never make a dime with music. But they did have (free) advertising this way, and if the kid grows older and makes money out of his productions and uses waves plugs all the time, he will maybe buy the plugs because he is used to them.
If he diden't use the pirated versions of waves first, he would have bought Massey, Ohmforce, PSP,... plugs, simply because they are cheaper and better offcourse.

I think a part of the fact why people know waves
(and think they are good) is because everybody can get them for free on the internet.


Again i am against piracy, but it has it's advantages for the company's!

[peeder]

I think the response of the engineering community to this development will be the spread of open source plugins.

There are significant impediments to open sourcing plugins, foremost of which are the VST and RTAS/TDM proprietary standards. But there are workarounds to these problems...OS-provided DirectX and Audio Units, and the open JACK system that's under development. These issues are all very readily solvable, programmers would love to do this stuff if they see the pain they can relieve.

Waves needs to realize that they are fighting a two-front battle. The programmers aren't going to stand for this kind of barratry. I would have already delivered an ultimatum to the management if I worked there. But even if Waves is run with militant tyranny, there are plenty of other programmers outside who will fill the gap in faith this is creating.

Waves is generating demand--not for its own products, but for filling the hole their pirated products' absence will create (if they are indeed successful in frightening enough people). The vast majority of people aren't going to respond to this threat by paying a tyrannical Waves. They are going to look for safe alternatives.

I suggest a labelling program for open source plugins. "When you see the open source label on your plugin, you know you're safe." Studio owners can then have a means of quickly reviewing plugins that are brought into their studios...if it doesn't have the label, it doesn't come into the building, period.

Yes, we are witnessing the self-immolation of the audio software industry right in front of our eyes. If I was currently in that business, like I've said, I'm on the horn with the CEO of Waves telling him in no uncertain terms he is to stand down for everyone's benefit. If he ignored those pleas, I'd think of starting a very visible counter-movement based on the honor system and mutual respect rather than spying and lawsuits.

There are very very very good reasons virtually no one else in the entire software industry has acted this stupid over the decades where piracy has been prevalent, and somehow, these Waves creeps have not found the clue.

[superburtm]

waves

p.s. sorry sluts..I never used the pissing money before but I felt this to be the appropriate time

[borjam]

Originally Posted by backplay

Again i am against piracy, but it has it's advantages for the company's!

It actually depends on the company. An extreme example is Microsoft. Looking at their results, Windows and Office yield a margin of around 80 %, despite the fact that there are many more pirated Windows and Office installations than properly licensed. But, what about other software manufacturers? I don't think it's the same. Take for example a small company like Elemental Audio, or PSP. Do you think piracy is an advantage for them? I seriously doubt it.

And the problem with open sourcing plugins is that there is indeed a lot of know-how in them. Let me explain better. Developing a software product has two important burdens:

1) Research and development so that you properly design it.

2) Implementation, optimization, testing, etc

Today, with very capable operating systems being open source, it seems that every software should be open source. But if you think about it, Linux, the BSDs, etc, don't have so a strong R&D component. There are exceptions (such as ZFS, the new filesystem by Sun Microsystems), of course, but they are a minority.

Plugins, on the other hand, are quite unique creations. Their sound depends on the design of their algorithms, and all that research work is what gives a developer an edge over another.

This is comparable to a common misunderstanding at least in Spain. To justify music piracy many people say that musicians should be payed just for concerts, even claiming that musicians who don't perform live are lazy. Of course people who says this doesn't understand what composition or studio work is. I think the same misunderstanding is happening between musicians/studios and the audio software industry.