Software Police on Patrol... - Page 4

MathematikI · 11th July 2007, 10:20 AM

Sorry for being new as well...
But I also know 2 guys who got served....
... one got 15,000$...and another 20,000$...but as far as I know they gave them the oppurtunity to buy the bundles they were caught using
...in order to drop the case...

I also heard another horror story told in the Ableton forum...

I'm rooting for Waves on this one... stealing is stealing...

Waves processors are amazing to me... they are my go to plugs...
and I don't think people hating their tactics got anything to do with this...
this is using another man's gear w
If I were developing pro software for years ...
and could find people that use them illegally I would Sue the Shits out of them...

You do not really think that Waves makes cheap software and Charges their users the extra to cover their losses (or for using ilok) ... That's just silly!!!
Where is all this hatin' coming from?
Waves plugs are one of the most researched and precise pieces of software I know... They are a joy to work on and I'm glad I got'em
Money is spent on DEVELOPMENT mostly... even
Nothing to do with Greed...

If you can't do the time... then... well you know the rest...

MathematikI · 11th July 2007, 10:22 AM

[double post]

Free The Bee · 11th July 2007, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terminal3

Hmmm. -If- the stories are fake, is this:

a) a smear campaign by disgruntled Waves users/ex-users?

Or

b) a scaremongering campaign by Waves themselves to frighten people into buying licenses?

So if it's B then does that mean Waves have organised their own smear compaign???

idlabs · 11th July 2007, 11:23 PM

This is some of the silliest ish I've seen on this site. Why do all the "friends of friends" posts keep doubling? Why are they all new members? Uhh, maybe I'm the dummy, but this a smokescreen if I ever saw one. I shudder to think of the ramifications of threads like this.
On the other hand, I'm glad people are calling attention to this subject. The use of cracked software is a problem. As is alot of other things concerning intelectual property and the rampant theft of it on the internet.
That being said, IF this is Waves using this site to scare people into paying for thier software, fck them. That's not why this place exits.

vixapphire · 12th July 2007, 03:02 AM

I've seen one of the letters. It is real. A pretty straightforward form demand letter, done via a "mail-merge" program, on some Nebraska solo-practitioner's letterhead.

What's strange is that Waves uses the Chicago IP firm of Ladas & Perry for their intellectual property representation; would be interesting to get the story behind this Nebraska attorney's involvement.

Notwithstanding the exceptionally thorough law school exam answer regarding piercing the corporate veil, which may have been a bit outside the scope of the discussion, Stratgirl has hit it right on with her recommendations.

dlmorley · 12th July 2007, 08:21 AM

A (very) small side thought!

If I want to borrow a friends Manley or whatever bit of hardware, I just ask him and use it for a session
If I do the same with a plug in, looks like I could be up for a $25,000 letter

I have had 1 person call about recording and want a Neumann. I don't have one. SO, I borrow one. I don't have to rush out and buy one.
It would be odd for Neumann to call me up and book a session saying they need a U87ai and then to check the serial number and sue me for not owning it

Not saying wrong or right, just a thought!

LogicUser · 12th July 2007, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

When my mates (who by the way had never used waves software before this but wanted the gig that was dangled like a carrott by the crooks at waves) said that they only downloaded the software to get the job and then uninstalled it, the responce from Waves was "sorry you have broken our terms and if you dont pay now we will take you to court and you'll pay a lot more for our lawyer fees (dating back to whenever they started investigating)

Well, most likely your mates should have read the license agreement before they download an "evaluation" copy in order to get a paid job! It explicitly states:

"Moreover, you expressly agree that you shall use SOFTWARE during the DEMONSTRATION PERIOD only for purposes of evaluation of the SOFTWARE, and not for any commercial use."
http://www.waves.com/objects/pdf/gen..._Agreement.pdf

Quote:

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

and if we cant we should aim to buy it when we make some money from using it ...

So ... if you decide to become a taxi driver, you get yourself a Mercedes from your local dealer and tell the sales guy you are "probably" going to pay for it once your business makes profit?
And... why did your mates want to get the job in first place? In order to make money or to have the singer say: Hey, if your production is good and if I earn some money with it somewhen, then I might probably aim at paying you one day? You sure know the answers...

drmmrboy · 12th July 2007, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlmorley

A (very) small side thought!

If I want to borrow a friends Manley or whatever bit of hardware, I just ask him and use it for a session
If I do the same with a plug in, looks like I could be up for a $25,000 letter

If you borrowed your friends plugin, I think you'd have to borrow his ilok.
If you have an ilok w/ licenses, your cool right..??

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlmorley

I have had 1 person call about recording and want a Neumann. I don't have one. SO, I borrow one. I don't have to rush out and buy one.
It would be odd for Neumann to call me up and book a session saying they need a U87ai and then to check the serial number and sue me for not owning it

Not saying wrong or right, just a thought!

Only if it's reported stolen..

Reminds me of the old fighting couple story. Girl drives a car in the guys name, and the guy reports it stolen to get her in trouble.

drakewire · 12th July 2007, 02:34 PM

When you purchase any software that is non GPL as in the case of Waves it comes with a Non Transferable license, meaning you usually cant transfer it from one entity to the next without expressed permission from the copyright owner (waves)...
What you are talking out opens the whole intellectual property debate. Whether you borrow the Manley and use it is up to you, if your friend says you stole it from him, then I doubt the courts would care if you borrowed it and were going to give it back.
Waves is in a position where it can really start to make progress in an industry that has been outright over run with wide spread piracy on all sides of the isles.
I actually heard on another website, that Waves API has already been cracked and is being shared. This is ridiculous, as those software companies spend tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars creating the products only to be cracked and sold.
I am not really a supporter of Waves, but I am for stopping the piracy and illegal sharing of music that threatens the music industry.

BTW, I am not a new member of Gear Slutz...
:)

dlmorley · 12th July 2007, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakewire

When you purchase any software that is non GPL as in the case of Waves it comes with a Non Transferable license, meaning you usually cant transfer it from one entity to the next without expressed permission from the copyright owner (waves)...
What you are talking out opens the whole intellectual property debate. Whether you borrow the Manley and use it is up to you, if your friend says you stole it from him, then I doubt the courts would care if you borrowed it and were going to give it back.

But Manley couldn't sue me, my friend could so even if this scenario were to happen (unlikely) Manley have nothing to say.
My Manley can be used by any of my friends on any of their recordings without any issues. The upside for Manley being that my friends may end up buying one if they like it enough...

If a friend asks to borrow my waves bundle and I say you can't because I'm the only person with the license to use it, who wins?

I can also rent a Manley. Maybe software companies should consider this option too that way if a client (like err waves) calls up specifying Waves plug ins, I rent them for the session..

Kris · 12th July 2007, 03:33 PM

I'm pretty sure you could borrow your buddy's Waves bundle any time you'd like, by either going to his place and using it there, or by bringing his computer with the bundle on it to your place.

sahiaman · 12th July 2007, 03:34 PM

For the guy who downloaded an "evaluation" of the Waves software, he got what was coming to him. There is never ever any basis for someone to steal something in order to 'evaluate' it. If you wanted to buy a BMW, you wouldn't steal anothers and return it would you? Even if the other party never found out, isn't it still wrong?

If we as studio owners reject the idea of people downloading music albums we should be helping fight against software piracy. The stories of Waves slapping people with suits shouldn't be the only deterent. It hurts us all and increases the prices of the software we want, or worse yet, makes people not even want to produce these softwares. And you know this!!

I hate to sound like a narc, but we should be reporting the people that we know of that willing using these hacked softwares, either for hobby, or profit. If we were more intolerant of our friends downloading music, software, intelletual properties in general, than these people would be ashamed of doing such things knowing that there is a stigma.

Kris · 12th July 2007, 03:36 PM

I've rented plugins from Digidesign before. I don't know if they still do that or not, but it worked out great.

vixapphire · 12th July 2007, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drakewire

When you purchase any software that is non GPL as in the case of Waves it comes with a Non Transferable license, meaning you usually cant transfer it from one entity to the next without expressed permission from the copyright owner (waves)...
What you are talking out opens the whole intellectual property debate. Whether you borrow the Manley and use it is up to you, if your friend says you stole it from him, then I doubt the courts would care if you borrowed it and were going to give it back.
Waves is in a position where it can really start to make progress in an industry that has been outright over run with wide spread piracy on all sides of the isles.
I actually heard on another website, that Waves API has already been cracked and is being shared. This is ridiculous, as those software companies spend tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars creating the products only to be cracked and sold.
I am not really a supporter of Waves, but I am for stopping the piracy and illegal sharing of music that threatens the music industry.

BTW, I am not a new member of Gear Slutz...
:)

The end of the "first sale doctrine" is nigh. It's unfortunate that one can buy a $2000 Lexicon reverb, sell it in a few years to someone else and recoup part of the investment, whereas one can buy a $2000 Waves bundle and not do the same. It is my understanding that one can transfer licenses in PowerCore plugz and others; is Waves really marketing their product as non-transferable licenses? So you buy it for top-of-market prices (and from what I understand the sound quality justifies it), but can't ever off it if it's not what you need, or if a year later someone leaves you a rack of choice hardware in his/her will? That's too bad, if true.

charles maynes · 12th July 2007, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlmorley

A (very) small side thought!

If I want to borrow a friends Manley or whatever bit of hardware, I just ask him and use it for a session
If I do the same with a plug in, looks like I could be up for a $25,000 letter

I have had 1 person call about recording and want a Neumann. I don't have one. SO, I borrow one. I don't have to rush out and buy one.
It would be odd for Neumann to call me up and book a session saying they need a U87ai and then to check the serial number and sue me for not owning it

Not saying wrong or right, just a thought!

Borrowing the software and dongle would not be an offense I think. Cracked software is stolen and entirely illegal. It is the same as counterfeit currency.

charles maynes

terminal3 · 12th July 2007, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles maynes

Borrowing the software and dongle would not be an offense I think. Cracked software is stolen and entirely illegal. It is the same as counterfeit currency.

I think some software license agreements actually don't allow loaning or renting of the licenses. You can work on any computer if you are the original licensee (for example, as a freelancer you could take your iLok to a studio and go to town) but you couldn't loan it to the studio or allow a freelancer to use your licenses in your own studio.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixapphire

So you buy it for top-of-market prices (and from what I understand the sound quality justifies it), but can't ever off it if it's not what you need, or if a year later someone leaves you a rack of choice hardware in his/her will? That's too bad, if true.

Waves, along with other companies, do allow license transfers, but there are often exorbitant fees involved to do so. Some companies (BIAS comes to mind) do not allow license transfer at all, ever. You can of course physically sell your discs/dongle etc but the second user would be entitled to virtually no support or upgrades.

vixapphire · 12th July 2007, 05:40 PM

I've been out of the "working in commercial studios" game for about 12 years, around the time Ampex changed its name to Quantegy and 3M Scotch stopped making recording tape, so pardon the dumbness of this question:

when you go to a big room now, as engineer or producer, do you walk in with your loaded ilok, and the studio's got all the plugz loaded on the PT system, but you're entitled to use only those you've paid for on your own, or do the studios load up and maintain their own iloks as well? Or (3d option) are you expected to arrive with your own CPU with the cards and all that shite, including your own ilok?

like i said, sorry if that's the dumbass question of the year and beneath the dignity of the discussion; i'm curious how the use of dongles is applied in these commercial environments. my ilok only has GRM tools on it and sits in my Logic-based studio full-time, so i don't know.

charles maynes · 12th July 2007, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vixapphire

I've been out of the "working in commercial studios" game for about 12 years, around the time Ampex changed its name to Quantegy and 3M Scotch stopped making recording tape, so pardon the dumbness of this question:

when you go to a big room now, as engineer or producer, do you walk in with your loaded ilok, and the studio's got all the plugz loaded on the PT system, but you're entitled to use only those you've paid for on your own, or do the studios load up and maintain their own iloks as well? Or (3d option) are you expected to arrive with your own CPU with the cards and all that shite, including your own ilok?

like i said, sorry if that's the dumbass question of the year and beneath the dignity of the discussion; i'm curious how the use of dongles is applied in these commercial environments. my ilok only has GRM tools on it and sits in my Logic-based studio full-time, so i don't know.

I bring my plugins and ilok with me on those jobs. You can use multiple iloks at the same time to expand the license set.

charles maynes

Sugarnutz · 12th July 2007, 06:39 PM

Here’s a wrench in the works:

If I go to a website such as MF or to a brick & mortar store such as GC and purchase a Waves bundle or any other software for that matter, is this “Software End-User Agreement” presented to me (or you) prior to the software company and/or it’s agent (the retailer) accepting my hard earned coin? I think the answer is “NO”. This agreement is usually presented to the end user when installing the software for the first time, after the seller has already accepted the payment.

If I go to install the software, read the agreement and disagree with any of the terms, do I have any recourse to get my monies refunded? The answer here is again a “No”. If you read the refund/exchange terms posted at retailers websites or on the nice big signs over their customer service counters, it states that software cannot be refunded if already opened (which is what you have to do to read the agreement) and can only be exchanged if defective for the exact same software title.

Where does this leave the end-user? Do you have to hire an attorney to recoup your money? Sue the manufacturer or the retailer? I dare anyone here to purchase a software title, go home to install it and after reading the software agreement, try and get a refund if you don’t like the terms. It ain’t gonna happen unless your brother-in-law owns the store you bought it from.

If I purchase software and the seller does not specify any terms of the use of it before I give you my money then I can assume that any usage I might deem necessary for me is allowable. I’m not talking about making copies to give all my friends, but reasonable use which includes selling/transferring the asset after I no longer have use for it or possibly installing the software on multiple machines in my home or business that are to be used by myself only. These can be deemed reasonable/fair use by someone without getting way out in left field.

What I’m saying is that software manufacturers are going to have to present you with the complete agreement “Before” they accept your money if they want to be able to enforce all terms outlined in the agreement or they will have to offer a way to refund your money if you do not agree to “All” of their terms after the fact.

All this would take a court case to prove the point, but an end-user with the financial resources could win it. This is why software companies like Waves are offering an out to people who have received these letters, they don’t want to set a court precedent that their “End-User Agreements” are un-enforceable due to the way the transactions are handled.

Kris · 12th July 2007, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by terminal3

Waves, along with other companies, do allow license transfers, but there are often exorbitant fees involved to do so.

To be fair, a few years back I purchased the Waves RenComp from someone... I don't recall any sort of fees for the license transfer...

sahiaman · 12th July 2007, 07:34 PM

Sugarnutz brought up a good point. This has been debated many times in the software publishers community. The fact is, once you buy something from a vendor, you have to adhere to their policy. Period. You can probably sweet talk your way out of it if you spend a lot of money there. I have before, I have returned items opened software to GC and returned items past the 14 day period.

However, lets say that you install something, don't agree with the License and click no. Vendor doesn't take it back. Well your next step is to take it to the developer. And I have seen this work many times. Whether or not it will work with Waves is another story. But the legal aspect is that if you click no, you have a very good case to not use the license. However, if a company has the terms of the license on their site(ie. Soundsonline.com), and you can access it with ease, then they can make a claim that you had the information avalible before you bought the item.

Next time try this....walk into a vendor, ask them about the return policy on opened software, and then ask them what happens if it doesn't work or I don't like the terms of the license. Ask to speak to the manager and address these concerns. Eventually this will get back to the software publisher and we might see a change on software that doesn't work for us.

terminal3 · 12th July 2007, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kris

To be fair, a few years back I purchased the Waves RenComp from someone... I don't recall any sort of fees for the license transfer...

Maybe a few years ago they didn't, but they now charge US $150 per bundle and they'll only allow it if the bundle is up-to-date with WUP.

Led · 13th July 2007, 05:11 AM

Would be interesting if this was a scam someone setup and the settlement payments aren't actually going to waves but to a scammer account hey....

jhamburg · 13th July 2007, 02:08 PM

I had a visit from the software police as well.

It was a cold call which is unusual for us (all word of mouth).

He was an Israeli engineer working on a personal project, wanted to mix a record and needed waves plug-ins.

I told him that I was weaning myself off of them because they were too expensive but if was going to book a large block I'd get them. Never heard from him, I've got his number somewhere.

Seemed like a nice enough guy, terrible music though.

I did give him a little speech on how I thought the WUP was too predatory and how I felt waves business would suffer as a result.

we're a medium sized shop BTW.

GödelString

joel

vixapphire · 13th July 2007, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Led

Would be interesting if this was a scam someone setup and the settlement payments aren't actually going to waves but to a scammer account hey....

considering that the number the letter asks the recipient to call is a collection agency and not the attorney's office, it's highly suspicious. supposing someone is frightened into paying the demanded amount? he pays over the phone on the credit card, he does not receive a written release from Waves in exchange for the payment, and now his payment stands as an admission of wrongdoing and Waves is free to pursue its remedies against him, not having released him from any liability. it's a dream scenario for some, nightmares for many others!

cold-rolled brilliant, that's for sure. notwithstanding its inherent moral/ethical bankruptcy...

Legitpit · 15th July 2007, 11:04 AM

I am still here, keeping a watchful eye on this subject.

It is incredible that they have gone worldwide. I know people in the US, UK, Canada, Australia and France that have had the software police visit from Israel.

I wonder how many people they have in their list, and if they do go to court, how much money will that cost and how many times will they loose? That may end with them actually loosing more money.

Another thought, how much money and time have people lost through demoing the waves software to these musicians that were undercover police? There is a law under the deception act I believe in regards to time wasting and loosing funds. So how much is your time worth, would it not cancel out the damages claims I wonder?

Fluxpod · 15th July 2007, 11:32 AM

Its a harsh move.............but .........to be honest...if you use cracked software you deserve all the crap you get.Beside crashes.

Recording David · 15th July 2007, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by patrox247

It is VERY VERY VERY VERY strange how many comments on this subject are coming from either new members, or members with low thread counts who happen to have no profile links. This almost never happens on this site!
Interesting......

I guess it's either Waves people wanting to scare users of their cracks, or regular members of the forum who use Waves cracks and don't want to be identified by their real screen name so they make a fake name to use in the Waves K threads!!

vixapphire · 15th July 2007, 04:00 PM

Of course, it could also be because people using cracked software may be lower-profile studios/producers that don't spend a lot of time talking about gear on this type of forum... maybe more likely on the "ripper" sites, though?

On the other hand, where they may not have had a need to participate in fora like this before, the receipt of the letter might cause them to seek out others in the same boat to discuss. It's cheaper than calling a lawyer!

12th July 2007, 03:02 AM	#95
vixapphire Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,954	I've seen one of the letters. It is real. A pretty straightforward form demand letter, done via a "mail-merge" program, on some Nebraska solo-practitioner's letterhead. What's strange is that Waves uses the Chicago IP firm of Ladas & Perry for their intellectual property representation; would be interesting to get the story behind this Nebraska attorney's involvement. Notwithstanding the exceptionally thorough law school exam answer regarding piercing the corporate veil, which may have been a bit outside the scope of the discussion, Stratgirl has hit it right on with her recommendations. __________________ ___________________________________ "Revolution is the opiate of intellectuals." - Anon.

12th July 2007, 08:21 AM	#96
dlmorley Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Belgium Posts: 2,716	A (very) small side thought! If I want to borrow a friends Manley or whatever bit of hardware, I just ask him and use it for a session If I do the same with a plug in, looks like I could be up for a $25,000 letter I have had 1 person call about recording and want a Neumann. I don't have one. SO, I borrow one. I don't have to rush out and buy one. It would be odd for Neumann to call me up and book a session saying they need a U87ai and then to check the serial number and sue me for not owning it Not saying wrong or right, just a thought! __________________ New CD "Ghosts" Ursa Major Studios

12th July 2007, 02:34 PM	#99
drakewire Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 760	Software is non transferable When you purchase any software that is non GPL as in the case of Waves it comes with a Non Transferable license, meaning you usually cant transfer it from one entity to the next without expressed permission from the copyright owner (waves)... What you are talking out opens the whole intellectual property debate. Whether you borrow the Manley and use it is up to you, if your friend says you stole it from him, then I doubt the courts would care if you borrowed it and were going to give it back. Waves is in a position where it can really start to make progress in an industry that has been outright over run with wide spread piracy on all sides of the isles. I actually heard on another website, that Waves API has already been cracked and is being shared. This is ridiculous, as those software companies spend tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars creating the products only to be cracked and sold. I am not really a supporter of Waves, but I am for stopping the piracy and illegal sharing of music that threatens the music industry. BTW, I am not a new member of Gear Slutz... :) __________________

12th July 2007, 03:33 PM	#101
Kris Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,284	I'm pretty sure you could borrow your buddy's Waves bundle any time you'd like, by either going to his place and using it there, or by bringing his computer with the bundle on it to your place. __________________ http://www.fullblackout.com - band http://www.logcabinmusic.com - studio ... - Yours Truely "a GOOD mic pre is good with any mic on any instrument or voice for any genre of music and into any recording device." W. Wittman (ProSoundWeb)

12th July 2007, 03:36 PM	#103
Kris Lives for gear Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Tallahassee Posts: 1,284	I've rented plugins from Digidesign before. I don't know if they still do that or not, but it worked out great. __________________ http://www.fullblackout.com - band http://www.logcabinmusic.com - studio ... - Yours Truely "a GOOD mic pre is good with any mic on any instrument or voice for any genre of music and into any recording device." W. Wittman (ProSoundWeb)

11th July 2007, 10:20 AM	#91
MathematikI Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2	Sorry for being new as well... But I also know 2 guys who got served.... ... one got 15,000$...and another 20,000$...but as far as I know they gave them the oppurtunity to buy the bundles they were caught using ...in order to drop the case... I also heard another horror story told in the Ableton forum... I'm rooting for Waves on this one... stealing is stealing... Waves processors are amazing to me... they are my go to plugs... and I don't think people hating their tactics got anything to do with this... this is using another man's gear w If I were developing pro software for years ... and could find people that use them illegally I would Sue the Shits out of them... You do not really think that Waves makes cheap software and Charges their users the extra to cover their losses (or for using ilok) ... That's just silly!!! Where is all this hatin' coming from? Waves plugs are one of the most researched and precise pieces of software I know... They are a joy to work on and I'm glad I got'em Money is spent on DEVELOPMENT mostly... even Nothing to do with Greed... If you can't do the time... then... well you know the rest...

11th July 2007, 10:22 AM	#92
MathematikI Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 2	[double post]

11th July 2007, 11:23 PM	#94
idlabs Gear nut Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 128	This is some of the silliest ish I've seen on this site. Why do all the "friends of friends" posts keep doubling? Why are they all new members? Uhh, maybe I'm the dummy, but this a smokescreen if I ever saw one. I shudder to think of the ramifications of threads like this. On the other hand, I'm glad people are calling attention to this subject. The use of cracked software is a problem. As is alot of other things concerning intelectual property and the rampant theft of it on the internet. That being said, IF this is Waves using this site to scare people into paying for thier software, fck them. That's not why this place exits.

12th July 2007, 03:34 PM	#102
sahiaman Gear maniac Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 289	For the guy who downloaded an "evaluation" of the Waves software, he got what was coming to him. There is never ever any basis for someone to steal something in order to 'evaluate' it. If you wanted to buy a BMW, you wouldn't steal anothers and return it would you? Even if the other party never found out, isn't it still wrong? If we as studio owners reject the idea of people downloading music albums we should be helping fight against software piracy. The stories of Waves slapping people with suits shouldn't be the only deterent. It hurts us all and increases the prices of the software we want, or worse yet, makes people not even want to produce these softwares. And you know this!! I hate to sound like a narc, but we should be reporting the people that we know of that willing using these hacked softwares, either for hobby, or profit. If we were more intolerant of our friends downloading music, software, intelletual properties in general, than these people would be ashamed of doing such things knowing that there is a stigma.

12th July 2007, 05:40 PM	#107
vixapphire Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,954	I've been out of the "working in commercial studios" game for about 12 years, around the time Ampex changed its name to Quantegy and 3M Scotch stopped making recording tape, so pardon the dumbness of this question: when you go to a big room now, as engineer or producer, do you walk in with your loaded ilok, and the studio's got all the plugz loaded on the PT system, but you're entitled to use only those you've paid for on your own, or do the studios load up and maintain their own iloks as well? Or (3d option) are you expected to arrive with your own CPU with the cards and all that shite, including your own ilok? like i said, sorry if that's the dumbass question of the year and beneath the dignity of the discussion; i'm curious how the use of dongles is applied in these commercial environments. my ilok only has GRM tools on it and sits in my Logic-based studio full-time, so i don't know. __________________ ___________________________________ "Revolution is the opiate of intellectuals." - Anon.

12th July 2007, 06:39 PM	#109
Sugarnutz Gear addict Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Lake Cormorant, MS Posts: 338	Here’s a wrench in the works: If I go to a website such as MF or to a brick & mortar store such as GC and purchase a Waves bundle or any other software for that matter, is this “Software End-User Agreement” presented to me (or you) prior to the software company and/or it’s agent (the retailer) accepting my hard earned coin? I think the answer is “NO”. This agreement is usually presented to the end user when installing the software for the first time, after the seller has already accepted the payment. If I go to install the software, read the agreement and disagree with any of the terms, do I have any recourse to get my monies refunded? The answer here is again a “No”. If you read the refund/exchange terms posted at retailers websites or on the nice big signs over their customer service counters, it states that software cannot be refunded if already opened (which is what you have to do to read the agreement) and can only be exchanged if defective for the exact same software title. Where does this leave the end-user? Do you have to hire an attorney to recoup your money? Sue the manufacturer or the retailer? I dare anyone here to purchase a software title, go home to install it and after reading the software agreement, try and get a refund if you don’t like the terms. It ain’t gonna happen unless your brother-in-law owns the store you bought it from. If I purchase software and the seller does not specify any terms of the use of it before I give you my money then I can assume that any usage I might deem necessary for me is allowable. I’m not talking about making copies to give all my friends, but reasonable use which includes selling/transferring the asset after I no longer have use for it or possibly installing the software on multiple machines in my home or business that are to be used by myself only. These can be deemed reasonable/fair use by someone without getting way out in left field. What I’m saying is that software manufacturers are going to have to present you with the complete agreement “Before” they accept your money if they want to be able to enforce all terms outlined in the agreement or they will have to offer a way to refund your money if you do not agree to “All” of their terms after the fact. All this would take a court case to prove the point, but an end-user with the financial resources could win it. This is why software companies like Waves are offering an out to people who have received these letters, they don’t want to set a court precedent that their “End-User Agreements” are un-enforceable due to the way the transactions are handled. __________________ "I'll have a Cuervo & Buttermilk" The Original Dirty Mother

12th July 2007, 07:34 PM	#111
sahiaman Gear maniac Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 289	Sugarnutz brought up a good point. This has been debated many times in the software publishers community. The fact is, once you buy something from a vendor, you have to adhere to their policy. Period. You can probably sweet talk your way out of it if you spend a lot of money there. I have before, I have returned items opened software to GC and returned items past the 14 day period. However, lets say that you install something, don't agree with the License and click no. Vendor doesn't take it back. Well your next step is to take it to the developer. And I have seen this work many times. Whether or not it will work with Waves is another story. But the legal aspect is that if you click no, you have a very good case to not use the license. However, if a company has the terms of the license on their site(ie. Soundsonline.com), and you can access it with ease, then they can make a claim that you had the information avalible before you bought the item. Next time try this....walk into a vendor, ask them about the return policy on opened software, and then ask them what happens if it doesn't work or I don't like the terms of the license. Ask to speak to the manager and address these concerns. Eventually this will get back to the software publisher and we might see a change on software that doesn't work for us.

13th July 2007, 05:11 AM	#113
Led Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 1,746	Would be interesting if this was a scam someone setup and the settlement payments aren't actually going to waves but to a scammer account hey.... __________________ "My voice has a built in extortion box" - recent vocalist I recorded...

13th July 2007, 02:08 PM	#114
jhamburg Gear nut Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 88	I had a visit from the software police as well. It was a cold call which is unusual for us (all word of mouth). He was an Israeli engineer working on a personal project, wanted to mix a record and needed waves plug-ins. I told him that I was weaning myself off of them because they were too expensive but if was going to book a large block I'd get them. Never heard from him, I've got his number somewhere. Seemed like a nice enough guy, terrible music though. I did give him a little speech on how I thought the WUP was too predatory and how I felt waves business would suffer as a result. we're a medium sized shop BTW. GödelString joel

15th July 2007, 11:04 AM	#116
Legitpit Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3	I am still here, keeping a watchful eye on this subject. It is incredible that they have gone worldwide. I know people in the US, UK, Canada, Australia and France that have had the software police visit from Israel. I wonder how many people they have in their list, and if they do go to court, how much money will that cost and how many times will they loose? That may end with them actually loosing more money. Another thought, how much money and time have people lost through demoing the waves software to these musicians that were undercover police? There is a law under the deception act I believe in regards to time wasting and loosing funds. So how much is your time worth, would it not cancel out the damages claims I wonder?

15th July 2007, 11:32 AM	#117
Fluxpod Gear addict Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Hamburg Posts: 390	Its a harsh move.............but .........to be honest...if you use cracked software you deserve all the crap you get.Beside crashes. __________________ http://www.myspace.com/utarinordica Last Century Modem

15th July 2007, 04:00 PM	#119
vixapphire Lives for gear Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 1,954	Of course, it could also be because people using cracked software may be lower-profile studios/producers that don't spend a lot of time talking about gear on this type of forum... maybe more likely on the "ripper" sites, though? On the other hand, where they may not have had a need to participate in fora like this before, the receipt of the letter might cause them to seek out others in the same boat to discuss. It's cheaper than calling a lawyer! __________________ ___________________________________ "Revolution is the opiate of intellectuals." - Anon.