Software Police on Patrol... - Page 3

APOHStudios · 5th July 2007, 11:43 PM

Doesn't make them look bad to me, but then again, I don't use Waves, I just make waves. Sorry for the pun, it was getting a little too serious.

Stratgirl · 6th July 2007, 03:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

Entrapment: Legal Definition of 'Entrapment'

Maybe I am wrong, but entrapment only applies to Governmental agencies and criminal actions. Not civil actions.

Exactly. Entrapment would have no place in a civil dispute such as this one.

backplay · 6th July 2007, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by heathen

I would'nt be surprised if waves releases thier own cracked versions of thier own software, just so they can get some extra cash by going around busting people.

Sounds a bit like a False Flag Operation

False flag - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

JonathanAniston · 6th July 2007, 04:25 PM

About these stories being false... They are not. I found this thread because I know the owner of a studio who has had the letter asking for £10,000 and I was curious to see if anyone else had been through the same thing.

To be honest, running a commercial studio facility with pirated software is just wrong.

Whether Waves can get the money or not is of course another matter.

Personally I also think it's wrong to steal anything, be it music, movies, software. I copied things when I was a student years ago, but I realise that was wrong and now that I make a living from music, it's only right to be use legit software.

I do think that Waves plugins are over-priced - but then we can always buy something else if we want. I also don't like the attitude of the company, but I still bought their plugins.

I also don't like the airline Ryanair here in the Uk, or it's owner, but sometimes I have to fly with them for practical reasons!

Free The Bee · 7th July 2007, 02:45 PM

I can assure people that the story isn't fake waves crap - although I wouldn't put it past them.

I believe that Entrapment is not a defence in UK law - but I may be wrong.

Secret Filming on private property is in direct violation of European Comminsion of Human Rights - Article 8 - and therefore should be admissable in court.

The fact that the guy no longer runs it as a "recording" studio is most likely irrelivant.

Waves offer a 30 day trail of there software - this guy had it for about an hour.

How about this for a suggestion...

What if the guy offered to pay the cost of the licence but as he never made any money from it and no longer has a studio, he offers to pay the money to Charity instead of waves????

That could show Waves Audio ltd's true colours!!!

drakewire · 7th July 2007, 06:25 PM

I think Ill weigh in on this....

I dont think Waves is being unreasonable... Entrapment? LOL!!! Has Waves suddenly become a Government agency and or official? No, its business. The true definition of Entrapment comes from governmental coercive behavior. From a legal perspective, this is whats called "But-For" arguments. The fact that Waves is enforcing its copyrights is commended. The fact that people steal them, is the same thing as fencing merchandise in a pawn shop. There is no legal difference. If you were to walk into Guitar Center and walk out with thousands of dollars in Software, you would be booked for Felony counts of Burglary. The fact that the robber didn't make any money is irrelevant.
Courts have erred on the side of caution when it comes to Peer to Peer debates and theft of intellectual property, but the 2nd circuit is actually making some progress with recently one Judge in his opinion saying "The Anarchy that threatens the economical strengths of the software, music, and movie business can no longer be ignored. Instead it must be addressed and dealt with harshly."

First LET ME explain something for everyone... You DO NOT have a constitutional right of privacy. Its neither written in the constitution or guaranteed. Privacy is called Grey Line legalities that is only found in Case Law. Whereas maybe you do or maybe you dont depending on the case law you can muster up.
So, if waves wanted to install a tracking device on their software and find those who are hacking and ripping them off, they would be justified. If they want to hire people to go to studios and check on the studios software to see if they are using illegal copies they can as well. I believe that falls under trickery to get evidence and common sense of protecting your property. Kind of like a Home Security System.
Imagine if a Burglar sued a home owner for having a ADT system.
LOL

Tibbon · 7th July 2007, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stratgirl

If he closed his recording studio, he has nothing to worry about.

Just as much as the Enron execs still had to worry after they declared bankruptcy.

A corporation does not shield a person from criminal activity. Theft is criminal activity, as is piracy.

I guess with the iLok/WUP thing WAVES knows what addresses have licenses. I mean, when I was working in a commercial studio, we kept our computer with USB hub and all in an ISO box. No one would have been able to see what computer we were using, let alone what USB keys were installed.

It's shady how Waves is doing this IMHO, but at the same time needed. People know not to attempt piracy of Waves stuff. They are serious about their software, as they should be. It's their product and livelyhood.

charles maynes · 7th July 2007, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I have two words for this- Entrapment., and trespassing. The secret video should not be admissable in court I would think, and the description of the chain of events seem ripe for a judge to award the studio owner significant punitive damages. I think it is high time for a full on Waves boycott. I cannot stand business practices such as these, and I certainly will not give them any financial reward for it.

any lawyers comment?

charles maynes

Boy-

Entrapment? I guess I was just extra pissed-off at humanity that day...

But seriously-

Waves is suffering from a whole lot of user dissatisfaction here-

Yes, they have had problems with piracy. It seems that the copy-protection they chose to use was vulnerable to hacking. Making a fair number of their legal customers chumps for spending their money on legal vs illegal software. However, I think that when Waves instituted the "WUP" plan- which is one of the only subscription plans in the industry, it seemed to many that, instead of fixing the real problem of software theft, they were instead charging their legitimate users to make up the losses they were suffering. Even when finally moving to the iLok, they had their own way they wished to deal with it, bypassing the convenience of iLok's zdt, and otherwise good customer service.

Waves has every right to protect their interests, but they seem to be the only company who is feeling compelled to do it in such an ugly way.

Other companies like McDSP, who have about the best record ever for customer support- has yet to charge for an update- since ProTools 3!, And when the iLok came out, they saw their sales go up, and piracy go down.

charles maynes

henryrobinett · 7th July 2007, 08:37 PM

Yay! Go Waves! LOL.

APOHStudios · 7th July 2007, 08:38 PM

One would hope that Waves has read this thread. They probably haven't or have and don't care.

Good customer service would address the issues raised here, and there have been a lot of them.

Waves has had good marketing, and has captured a large market share because of it. ProTools has done the same, as in the marketing/share aspect. Is ProTools a good program, it sure is, but why is it that most pro studios use it? Good program + good marketing, is why. That, coupled with the fact it was a Mac program (used to be Mac were safe because of lack of viruses out there).

But when it comes down to it, you are still just converting and recording 1's and 0's. Most DAW's out there are pretty successful at this. I don't want this to be a ProTools thread, I have just used them as an example.

Like I said, Waves was able to gain a significant foothold on the plug-in market with the proper marketing. But by alienating their customer base with added fees and poor customer support, it will hurt them in the long run. The only way to really send a message to this or any company with a policy you disagree with is with your money. You disagree with the way they do something, don't buy it and don't use it. And whatever you do, don't steal it. Because all that does is show them that even though you do not like their business practices, it is not enough of a dis-incentive for you to still desire/use their product. With that kind of a user-base thinking, Waves has no reason to change and they can just go after you to make up any lost revenue due to lower sales. They might even make more than if you had bought it legit.

But going after theft, by using any legitimate method available, is acceptable.

charles maynes · 7th July 2007, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

One would hope that Waves has read this thread. They probably haven't or have and don't care.

Good customer service would address the issues raised here, and there have been a lot of them.

Waves has had good marketing, and has captured a large market share because of it. ProTools has done the same, as in the marketing/share aspect. Is ProTools a good program, it sure is, but why is it that most pro studios use it? Good program + good marketing, is why. That, coupled with the fact it was a Mac program (used to be Mac were safe because of lack of viruses out there).

But when it comes down to it, you are still just converting and recording 1's and 0's. Most DAW's out there are pretty successful at this. I don't want this to be a ProTools thread, I have just used them as an example.

Like I said, Waves was able to gain a significant foothold on the plug-in market with the proper marketing. But by alienating their customer base with added fees and poor customer support, it will hurt them in the long run. The only way to really send a message to this or any company with a policy you disagree with is with your money. You disagree with the way they do something, don't buy it and don't use it. And whatever you do, don't steal it. Because all that does is show them that even though you do not like their business practices, it is not enough of a dis-incentive for you to still desire/use their product. With that kind of a user-base thinking, Waves has no reason to change and they can just go after you to make up any lost revenue due to lower sales. They might even make more than if you had bought it legit.

But going after theft, by using any legitimate method available, is acceptable.

well stated-

charles maynes

Stratgirl · 8th July 2007, 03:02 AM

[quote=Tibbon;1366275]Just as much as the Enron execs still had to worry after they declared bankruptcy.

A corporation does not shield a person from criminal activity. Theft is criminal activity, as is piracy.

quote]

Enron dealt with a different issue. The Ceos of Enron essentially lied to raise stock value which artificially boosted pension funds. When the shareholders discovered it, they brought a shareholder’s derivative action naming themselves as the injured parties, and sued the ceos. It was essentially a situation of the corporation suing the ceos.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Sounds like Waves is threatening to sue based upon the misappropriation of a license, which is a tort. In this situation, in order to hold an individual personally liable for the acts of a corporation, Waves would have to find a way to “pierce the corporate veil”. Whether or not they will be able to do that depends on whether or not the corporation (studio) was legitimately a corporation, the size of the corporation (i.e .just one guy, or were several people on the payroll), and many other factors. If the studio is really just an alter ego for the owner, and there’s no separate entity, then there’s a risk he can be held personally liable. But, if it’s a legitimate studio that existed as a separate entity, Waves most likely can only hold the corporation liable. And if the corporation is out of business, then good luck collecting.
<o:p></o:p>
But, let’s get practical. Sounds like Waves mailed a handful of threatening letters demanding $20,000 in damages. Any lawyer would want a $15,000 retainer up front to start an action in Federal Court. The risk of Waves actually winning enough lawsuits to recoup their legal fees is slim. Which is why, as of last month, they have yet to file any lawsuits in any Federal Court in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">U.S.</st1:country-region></st1:place> (no idea about other countries, sorry).
<o:p></o:p>
If I was a studio that received one of these letters, I would ignore it. I definitely wouldn’t contact them to settle until a Summons and Complaint was filed, and I was deep into the discovery process and actually saw copies of the supposed videos they have of my studio committing the acts they’re claiming. Only then, once I was sure I was caught red-handed, would I then call and try to negotiate.
<o:p></o:p>
If I was a studio currently using cracked plug-ins, I would BUY THE LICENSE! If I just had to run cracked plug—ins until I saved up to buy the real thing, I would have everyone entering my studio sign a contractual indemnity agreement. Something along the lines of …in the event that they’re there for any purpose not expressly stated in the agreement (recording, mixing, etc.), or in the event that they’re an agent, employee, or under the direction of a corporation, they agree that both them and the corporation will indemnify them from any and all losses accruing from their visit, including costs and attorney’s fees, etc., and that by signing it they acknowledge they have authorization to make this agreement on behalf of the corporation, yada yada. At least if you get sued, you can cross-claim against the guy hat provided the evidence and break even.

T_R_S · 8th July 2007, 08:04 AM

How does Waves know WHO your plug-ins are even registered to?
For example my business address is different from my studio. Plus "XYZ" studios might be using house engineer's "Joe Shmuck's" Gold Bundle.

But on the other hand if any one is dumb enough to advertise cracked plug-ins to clients they should get what's coming to them.

mac black · 8th July 2007, 02:10 PM

I can't see the problem here ... If you're using cracked plugins (especially in a commercial facility)... be prepared to pay.
Its the same as illegal downloads, why do you think everyone in the business earns less ?
Why is the business in such a crisis?
If people want free entertainment, they can watch free entertainers, on you tube.
If you don't like a product or the price of a product ... don't get it.
When I put a record out, Its already on Russian download sites (for free) and there is nothing I can do ... except write to BPI which don't do anything.

So, If my livelyhood depends on record/download sales, I need this money to keep buying gear and paying people, If I get a 1/3 of my expected income due to illegal downloads, it means I'll spend a 1/3 of what I should on gear and employees.

Its like a snow ball and its getting worse, cracked software, illegal downloads...what's next?

Stratgirl · 8th July 2007, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mac black

Its the same as illegal downloads, why do you think everyone in the business earns less ?
Why is the business in such a crisis?

The recording industry is in decline because people don't want to pay for something they're used to getting for free, and labels are too stubborn to shift their methods of distribution to meet today's demand. If artists made their albums available to download for free, supplemented with advertising income, they'd probably be better off. for example, allowing someone to download an album for free, but have them watch a 30 second commercial before they download each song. You get paid per song for advertising income by the corporation, your fans get to download music for free, and everyone's happy. But instead of coming up with new ideas, the labels decided to just sue everyone instead. Thus, alienating their consumers even further.

Waves is digging themselves deeper into this same hole by suing their market base instead of switching to a hardware-software interface platform. Suing people just makes them not want to deal with you or your company. It doesn't make people stop using what they can get for free.

heathen · 8th July 2007, 11:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stratgirl

Waves is digging themselves deeper into this same hole by suing their market base instead of switching to a hardware-software interface platform. Suing people just makes them not want to deal with you or your company. It doesn't make people stop using what they can get for free.

Exactly, anyway thier software is so expensive they could afford to hand dsp cards for free with the bundles. This is the reason no-one is bitching about cracked UAD1 plugs. Seems as though they anticipated this from the start.

Still they are going after the easy target instead of stopping it from the start, if they think they are going to get money out of this I reckon they should think again, they are going to destroy some young families when they send out these $75000 legal notices, I don't think someone who could not afford the plugs in the beginning is going to have the cash to settle.

Do the crime do the time but........ this is a cruel and unusual punishment if the end result means destroying young families lives, I can't see a judge doing that to anyone for using some cracked software.

I don't think thier little films will stand up in court either, with all the digital trickery which can be performed these days anything can be faked.

mac black · 9th July 2007, 09:29 PM

I don't believe anyone will get sued ... its expensive for both parties and a very long and gray process, anyhow ... Can you Imagine waves suing like 1000s of users illegal users...

Kids, don't do Crack !

popgoestheweazel · 9th July 2007, 09:47 PM

It's all true and even worse than I first thought. 3 of my close friends have been done by WAVES - here is why they are out of order:

1. They had no reason to suspect the producers were using cracked software, they went out to trap people ... no worse, 2 of my friends only downloaded the try before you buy version as a result of WAVES personal (spy) saying "I am a singer who wants to record an album IF you have waves".

If they didn't mention waves software my firneds would not have downloaded it, so its insightment and entrapment.

2. All 3 of my friends work from home, 2 in there bedroom and 1 of them has NEVER made money from producing, yet all have to pay the $11,700 that WAVES is suing for .... mmm nice guys at Waves!

3. When my mates (who by the way had never used waves software before this but wanted the gig that was dangled like a carrott by the crooks at waves) said that they only downloaded the software to get the job and then uninstalled it, the responce from Waves was "sorry you have broken our terms and if you dont pay now we will take you to court and you'll pay a lot more for our lawyer fees (dating back to whenever they started investigating)

Be careful people, we all should buy the software we use, and if we cant we should aim to buy it when we make some money from using it ... but the heavy handed apprroach by the Isreal spies and the scare tactics have left a bad taste in my mouth regards Waves. I WILL NEVER USE THERE SHIT, Never have and Never will.

Legitpit · 9th July 2007, 10:02 PM

It is certainly an uncomforting situation especially having someone turn up asking if they can have their band recorded only if Waves v5 can be used as "part of the production because of the amazing clarity".
- Hey wow, 9 days of a paying client, though only if waves v5 is used, hmmm, what can be done here. I dont have waves so, what to do, what to do....?? Gotta get through the meeting and get the job... Is the money available for the software? Nope, so what to do?

Is it available elsewhere?

Maybe... the software can be demo'd right?

Wrong, not V5

waves only allows V4 as a demo version on their download site! So, they asked for V5, and the only available V5 is a dodgy one, so what to do? Get the job or not?

Entrapped, yes!

Are you thinking what I am thinking, how do you work it from here without sufficient funds????

Waves, how much money do you plan on making from people that just don't have the funds to buy your silly priced software? and why entrap? You have the funds to make the software uncrackable I am sure without having to go to small fry. Why not send a letter to just say, we know what you're doing + destroy or seep the consequences!

I think they are trying to scare everyone, as most do not have funds to get lawyers, so they hope to make money through people just paying them off. It be a crazy thang!!! It be crazy!!!

Volodia · 9th July 2007, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

It's all true and even worse than I first thought. 3 of my close friends have been done by WAVES - here is why they are out of order:

1. They had no reason to suspect the producers were using cracked software, they went out to trap people ... no worse, 2 of my friends only downloaded the try before you buy version as a result of WAVES personal (spy) saying "I am a singer who wants to record an album IF you have waves".

If they didn't mention waves software my firneds would not have downloaded it, so its insightment and entrapment.

2. All 3 of my friends work from home, 2 in there bedroom and 1 of them has NEVER made money from producing, yet all have to pay the $11,700 that WAVES is suing for .... mmm nice guys at Waves!

3. When my mates (who by the way had never used waves software before this but wanted the gig that was dangled like a carrott by the crooks at waves) said that they only downloaded the software to get the job and then uninstalled it, the responce from Waves was "sorry you have broken our terms and if you dont pay now we will take you to court and you'll pay a lot more for our lawyer fees (dating back to whenever they started investigating)

Be careful people, we all should buy the software we use, and if we cant we should aim to buy it when we make some money from using it ... but the heavy handed apprroach by the Isreal spies and the scare tactics have left a bad taste in my mouth regards Waves. I WILL NEVER USE THERE SHIT, Never have and Never will.

It's a fake . To try you have to register and have an ILOK . There's no demo that works without authorisation .

Legitpit · 9th July 2007, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Volodia

It's a fake . To try you have to register and have an ILOK . There's no demo that works without authorisation .

Yes there is without an ilok, and without registration, see and try here: Downloads

- only v4 however!!!

Volodia · 9th July 2007, 10:52 PM

Anyway no one forces you to have everything . If someone asks for a 47 and you don't have it , do you steal it ?

If it's a real demo that was downloaded you risk nothing , but most of the time it's version with an "ilok resetter" .

I have a studio and you can be sure that I forbid any installation or addition of plugins on my system by third parties . Stability is at this price . If they want to come with their ilok I could authorize but it never happened ( I have a lot of plugs ,all legit) .

If Waves is really doing that (which I doubt) , they probably go after the ones who advertise their plugins in their list .
I've seen studios advertise their illegal software when I asked for an equipment list .

ILOK has done a lot of good and the situation is better than it was at the time of PT5 when even the big studios were full of cracks .

Stratgirl · 10th July 2007, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

If they didn't mention waves software my firneds would not have downloaded it, so its insightment and entrapment.

..oh boy, here we go with entrapment again.

Quote:

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

All 3 of my friends work from home, 2 in there bedroom and 1 of them has NEVER made money from producing, yet all have to pay the $11,700 that WAVES is suing for

Your post doesn't make sense. No one has to pay Waves anything unless there's a lawsuit that came to conclusion with a verdict in favor of Waves, and a judgment has been entered. Even then... but that's another story.

Also, your friends record in their bedroom for free and they managed to score a big client that demanded they buy thousands of dollars worth of software, and they said yes so they could loose money? fishy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

the scare tactics have left a bad taste in my mouth regards Waves. I WILL NEVER USE THERE SHIT, Never have and Never will.

I agree. Same here. I will think long and hard before supporting their company in the future. There's a million better ways of handlig the issue of stolen software other than threatening to ruin people. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people they go after have legitimate licenses, and are forced to spend thousands defending themselves. go Waves.

Kris · 10th July 2007, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

and if we cant we should aim to buy it when we make some money from using it ...

That's what credit cards are for.

Mikey MTC · 10th July 2007, 02:09 PM

There's so many holes in these so called tactics being levelled at Waves that it's stupid. Come on guys ... if you're going to create a smear campaign against Waves, it needs to be more plausible. Tell us some stories about Waves threatening middle sized to larger studios for a start. That would make more sense.

Stratgirl · 10th July 2007, 03:24 PM

For everyone that "knows a friend" that received one of these letters from Waves, any chance you could scan one and post it for us to see?

Duardo · 10th July 2007, 08:45 PM

Quote:

There's so many holes in these so called tactics being levelled at Waves that it's stupid. Come on guys ... if you're going to create a smear campaign against Waves, it needs to be more plausible.

Exactly...looks at how many posts the people in this thread who "know somebody" have:

popgoestheweazel 1 post
Legitpit 2 posts
Free the Bee 2 posts
blockrockin 2 posts

They drop by, tell their sad story, maybe reply once, and then they're gone, never to be heard from again...

blockrockin · 10th July 2007, 08:56 PM

nope im still here . just been reading the posts everyday. interesting to read everyones thoughts on the subject ....

5th July 2007, 11:43 PM	#61
APOHStudios Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Upland, CA Posts: 1,067	Doesn't make them look bad to me, but then again, I don't use Waves, I just make waves. Sorry for the pun, it was getting a little too serious. __________________ Doc Bernard, Quality Control Engineer http://www.avantelectronics.com For info, or technical question regarding our products, please contact support@avantelectronics.com http://www.myspace.com/apohstudios http://www.myspace.com/bengalvideoproductions

7th July 2007, 02:45 PM	#65
Free The Bee Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 11	It is true I can assure people that the story isn't fake waves crap - although I wouldn't put it past them. I believe that Entrapment is not a defence in UK law - but I may be wrong. Secret Filming on private property is in direct violation of European Comminsion of Human Rights - Article 8 - and therefore should be admissable in court. The fact that the guy no longer runs it as a "recording" studio is most likely irrelivant. Waves offer a 30 day trail of there software - this guy had it for about an hour. How about this for a suggestion... What if the guy offered to pay the cost of the licence but as he never made any money from it and no longer has a studio, he offers to pay the money to Charity instead of waves???? That could show Waves Audio ltd's true colours!!!

7th July 2007, 06:25 PM	#66
drakewire Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 764	Uhhh No I think Ill weigh in on this.... I dont think Waves is being unreasonable... Entrapment? LOL!!! Has Waves suddenly become a Government agency and or official? No, its business. The true definition of Entrapment comes from governmental coercive behavior. From a legal perspective, this is whats called "But-For" arguments. The fact that Waves is enforcing its copyrights is commended. The fact that people steal them, is the same thing as fencing merchandise in a pawn shop. There is no legal difference. If you were to walk into Guitar Center and walk out with thousands of dollars in Software, you would be booked for Felony counts of Burglary. The fact that the robber didn't make any money is irrelevant. Courts have erred on the side of caution when it comes to Peer to Peer debates and theft of intellectual property, but the 2nd circuit is actually making some progress with recently one Judge in his opinion saying "The Anarchy that threatens the economical strengths of the software, music, and movie business can no longer be ignored. Instead it must be addressed and dealt with harshly." First LET ME explain something for everyone... You DO NOT have a constitutional right of privacy. Its neither written in the constitution or guaranteed. Privacy is called Grey Line legalities that is only found in Case Law. Whereas maybe you do or maybe you dont depending on the case law you can muster up. So, if waves wanted to install a tracking device on their software and find those who are hacking and ripping them off, they would be justified. If they want to hire people to go to studios and check on the studios software to see if they are using illegal copies they can as well. I believe that falls under trickery to get evidence and common sense of protecting your property. Kind of like a Home Security System. Imagine if a Burglar sued a home owner for having a ADT system. LOL __________________

7th July 2007, 08:37 PM	#69
henryrobinett Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Sacramento Posts: 4,570	Yay! Go Waves! LOL. __________________ All the best, Henry Robinett

7th July 2007, 08:38 PM	#70
APOHStudios Lives for gear Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Upland, CA Posts: 1,067	One would hope that Waves has read this thread. They probably haven't or have and don't care. Good customer service would address the issues raised here, and there have been a lot of them. Waves has had good marketing, and has captured a large market share because of it. ProTools has done the same, as in the marketing/share aspect. Is ProTools a good program, it sure is, but why is it that most pro studios use it? Good program + good marketing, is why. That, coupled with the fact it was a Mac program (used to be Mac were safe because of lack of viruses out there). But when it comes down to it, you are still just converting and recording 1's and 0's. Most DAW's out there are pretty successful at this. I don't want this to be a ProTools thread, I have just used them as an example. Like I said, Waves was able to gain a significant foothold on the plug-in market with the proper marketing. But by alienating their customer base with added fees and poor customer support, it will hurt them in the long run. The only way to really send a message to this or any company with a policy you disagree with is with your money. You disagree with the way they do something, don't buy it and don't use it. And whatever you do, don't steal it. Because all that does is show them that even though you do not like their business practices, it is not enough of a dis-incentive for you to still desire/use their product. With that kind of a user-base thinking, Waves has no reason to change and they can just go after you to make up any lost revenue due to lower sales. They might even make more than if you had bought it legit. But going after theft, by using any legitimate method available, is acceptable. __________________ Doc Bernard, Quality Control Engineer http://www.avantelectronics.com For info, or technical question regarding our products, please contact support@avantelectronics.com http://www.myspace.com/apohstudios http://www.myspace.com/bengalvideoproductions

6th July 2007, 04:25 PM	#64
JonathanAniston Gear interested Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: London, UK Posts: 28	About these stories being false... They are not. I found this thread because I know the owner of a studio who has had the letter asking for £10,000 and I was curious to see if anyone else had been through the same thing. To be honest, running a commercial studio facility with pirated software is just wrong. Whether Waves can get the money or not is of course another matter. Personally I also think it's wrong to steal anything, be it music, movies, software. I copied things when I was a student years ago, but I realise that was wrong and now that I make a living from music, it's only right to be use legit software. I do think that Waves plugins are over-priced - but then we can always buy something else if we want. I also don't like the attitude of the company, but I still bought their plugins. I also don't like the airline Ryanair here in the Uk, or it's owner, but sometimes I have to fly with them for practical reasons!

8th July 2007, 03:02 AM	#72
Stratgirl Gear nut Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lawn Guyland, Noo Yawk Posts: 77	[quote=Tibbon;1366275]Just as much as the Enron execs still had to worry after they declared bankruptcy. A corporation does not shield a person from criminal activity. Theft is criminal activity, as is piracy. quote] Enron dealt with a different issue. The Ceos of Enron essentially lied to raise stock value which artificially boosted pension funds. When the shareholders discovered it, they brought a shareholder’s derivative action naming themselves as the injured parties, and sued the ceos. It was essentially a situation of the corporation suing the ceos. <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p> Sounds like Waves is threatening to sue based upon the misappropriation of a license, which is a tort. In this situation, in order to hold an individual personally liable for the acts of a corporation, Waves would have to find a way to “pierce the corporate veil”. Whether or not they will be able to do that depends on whether or not the corporation (studio) was legitimately a corporation, the size of the corporation (i.e .just one guy, or were several people on the payroll), and many other factors. If the studio is really just an alter ego for the owner, and there’s no separate entity, then there’s a risk he can be held personally liable. But, if it’s a legitimate studio that existed as a separate entity, Waves most likely can only hold the corporation liable. And if the corporation is out of business, then good luck collecting. <o:p></o:p> But, let’s get practical. Sounds like Waves mailed a handful of threatening letters demanding $20,000 in damages. Any lawyer would want a $15,000 retainer up front to start an action in Federal Court. The risk of Waves actually winning enough lawsuits to recoup their legal fees is slim. Which is why, as of last month, they have yet to file any lawsuits in any Federal Court in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">U.S.</st1:country-region></st1:place> (no idea about other countries, sorry). <o:p></o:p> If I was a studio that received one of these letters, I would ignore it. I definitely wouldn’t contact them to settle until a Summons and Complaint was filed, and I was deep into the discovery process and actually saw copies of the supposed videos they have of my studio committing the acts they’re claiming. Only then, once I was sure I was caught red-handed, would I then call and try to negotiate. <o:p></o:p> If I was a studio currently using cracked plug-ins, I would BUY THE LICENSE! If I just had to run cracked plug—ins until I saved up to buy the real thing, I would have everyone entering my studio sign a contractual indemnity agreement. Something along the lines of …in the event that they’re there for any purpose not expressly stated in the agreement (recording, mixing, etc.), or in the event that they’re an agent, employee, or under the direction of a corporation, they agree that both them and the corporation will indemnify them from any and all losses accruing from their visit, including costs and attorney’s fees, etc., and that by signing it they acknowledge they have authorization to make this agreement on behalf of the corporation, yada yada. At least if you get sued, you can cross-claim against the guy hat provided the evidence and break even.

8th July 2007, 08:04 AM	#73
T_R_S Lives for gear Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canuk Posts: 3,034	How does Waves know WHO your plug-ins are even registered to? For example my business address is different from my studio. Plus "XYZ" studios might be using house engineer's "Joe Shmuck's" Gold Bundle. But on the other hand if any one is dumb enough to advertise cracked plug-ins to clients they should get what's coming to them.

8th July 2007, 02:10 PM	#74
mac black Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: london Posts: 1,558	I can't see the problem here ... If you're using cracked plugins (especially in a commercial facility)... be prepared to pay. Its the same as illegal downloads, why do you think everyone in the business earns less ? Why is the business in such a crisis? If people want free entertainment, they can watch free entertainers, on you tube. If you don't like a product or the price of a product ... don't get it. When I put a record out, Its already on Russian download sites (for free) and there is nothing I can do ... except write to BPI which don't do anything. So, If my livelyhood depends on record/download sales, I need this money to keep buying gear and paying people, If I get a 1/3 of my expected income due to illegal downloads, it means I'll spend a 1/3 of what I should on gear and employees. Its like a snow ball and its getting worse, cracked software, illegal downloads...what's next? __________________ The early bird may get the worm, but its the second mouse that gets the cheese.

9th July 2007, 09:29 PM	#77
mac black Lives for gear Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: london Posts: 1,558	I don't believe anyone will get sued ... its expensive for both parties and a very long and gray process, anyhow ... Can you Imagine waves suing like 1000s of users illegal users... Kids, don't do Crack ! __________________ The early bird may get the worm, but its the second mouse that gets the cheese.

9th July 2007, 09:47 PM	#78
popgoestheweazel Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 1	It's all true and even worse than I first thought. 3 of my close friends have been done by WAVES - here is why they are out of order: 1. They had no reason to suspect the producers were using cracked software, they went out to trap people ... no worse, 2 of my friends only downloaded the try before you buy version as a result of WAVES personal (spy) saying "I am a singer who wants to record an album IF you have waves". If they didn't mention waves software my firneds would not have downloaded it, so its insightment and entrapment. 2. All 3 of my friends work from home, 2 in there bedroom and 1 of them has NEVER made money from producing, yet all have to pay the $11,700 that WAVES is suing for .... mmm nice guys at Waves! 3. When my mates (who by the way had never used waves software before this but wanted the gig that was dangled like a carrott by the crooks at waves) said that they only downloaded the software to get the job and then uninstalled it, the responce from Waves was "sorry you have broken our terms and if you dont pay now we will take you to court and you'll pay a lot more for our lawyer fees (dating back to whenever they started investigating) Be careful people, we all should buy the software we use, and if we cant we should aim to buy it when we make some money from using it ... but the heavy handed apprroach by the Isreal spies and the scare tactics have left a bad taste in my mouth regards Waves. I WILL NEVER USE THERE SHIT, Never have and Never will.

9th July 2007, 10:02 PM	#79
Legitpit Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 3	It is certainly an uncomforting situation especially having someone turn up asking if they can have their band recorded only if Waves v5 can be used as "part of the production because of the amazing clarity". - Hey wow, 9 days of a paying client, though only if waves v5 is used, hmmm, what can be done here. I dont have waves so, what to do, what to do....?? Gotta get through the meeting and get the job... Is the money available for the software? Nope, so what to do? Is it available elsewhere? Maybe... the software can be demo'd right? Wrong, not V5 waves only allows V4 as a demo version on their download site! So, they asked for V5, and the only available V5 is a dodgy one, so what to do? Get the job or not? Entrapped, yes! Are you thinking what I am thinking, how do you work it from here without sufficient funds???? Waves, how much money do you plan on making from people that just don't have the funds to buy your silly priced software? and why entrap? You have the funds to make the software uncrackable I am sure without having to go to small fry. Why not send a letter to just say, we know what you're doing + destroy or seep the consequences! I think they are trying to scare everyone, as most do not have funds to get lawyers, so they hope to make money through people just paying them off. It be a crazy thang!!! It be crazy!!!

9th July 2007, 10:52 PM	#82
Volodia Gear addict Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Paris Posts: 374	Anyway no one forces you to have everything . If someone asks for a 47 and you don't have it , do you steal it ? If it's a real demo that was downloaded you risk nothing , but most of the time it's version with an "ilok resetter" . I have a studio and you can be sure that I forbid any installation or addition of plugins on my system by third parties . Stability is at this price . If they want to come with their ilok I could authorize but it never happened ( I have a lot of plugs ,all legit) . If Waves is really doing that (which I doubt) , they probably go after the ones who advertise their plugins in their list . I've seen studios advertise their illegal software when I asked for an equipment list . ILOK has done a lot of good and the situation is better than it was at the time of PT5 when even the big studios were full of cracks . __________________ "If you are unprepared to make decisions then someone else should be engineering." William Wittman

10th July 2007, 02:09 PM	#85
Mikey MTC Gear maniac Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 176	There's so many holes in these so called tactics being levelled at Waves that it's stupid. Come on guys ... if you're going to create a smear campaign against Waves, it needs to be more plausible. Tell us some stories about Waves threatening middle sized to larger studios for a start. That would make more sense.

10th July 2007, 03:24 PM	#86
Stratgirl Gear nut Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Lawn Guyland, Noo Yawk Posts: 77	For everyone that "knows a friend" that received one of these letters from Waves, any chance you could scan one and post it for us to see?

10th July 2007, 08:56 PM	#88
blockrockin Gear interested Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 4	nope im still here . just been reading the posts everyday. interesting to read everyones thoughts on the subject ....