Software Police on Patrol...

[drakewire]

I think Ill weigh in on this....

I dont think Waves is being unreasonable... Entrapment? LOL!!! Has Waves suddenly become a Government agency and or official? No, its business. The true definition of Entrapment comes from governmental coercive behavior. From a legal perspective, this is whats called "But-For" arguments. The fact that Waves is enforcing its copyrights is commended. The fact that people steal them, is the same thing as fencing merchandise in a pawn shop. There is no legal difference. If you were to walk into Guitar Center and walk out with thousands of dollars in Software, you would be booked for Felony counts of Burglary. The fact that the robber didn't make any money is irrelevant.
Courts have erred on the side of caution when it comes to Peer to Peer debates and theft of intellectual property, but the 2nd circuit is actually making some progress with recently one Judge in his opinion saying "The Anarchy that threatens the economical strengths of the software, music, and movie business can no longer be ignored. Instead it must be addressed and dealt with harshly."

First LET ME explain something for everyone... You DO NOT have a constitutional right of privacy. Its neither written in the constitution or guaranteed. Privacy is called Grey Line legalities that is only found in Case Law. Whereas maybe you do or maybe you dont depending on the case law you can muster up.
So, if waves wanted to install a tracking device on their software and find those who are hacking and ripping them off, they would be justified. If they want to hire people to go to studios and check on the studios software to see if they are using illegal copies they can as well. I believe that falls under trickery to get evidence and common sense of protecting your property. Kind of like a Home Security System.
Imagine if a Burglar sued a home owner for having a ADT system.
LOL

[Tibbon]

Originally Posted by Stratgirl

If he closed his recording studio, he has nothing to worry about.

Just as much as the Enron execs still had to worry after they declared bankruptcy.

A corporation does not shield a person from criminal activity. Theft is criminal activity, as is piracy.

I guess with the iLok/WUP thing WAVES knows what addresses have licenses. I mean, when I was working in a commercial studio, we kept our computer with USB hub and all in an ISO box. No one would have been able to see what computer we were using, let alone what USB keys were installed.

It's shady how Waves is doing this IMHO, but at the same time needed. People know not to attempt piracy of Waves stuff. They are serious about their software, as they should be. It's their product and livelyhood.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I have two words for this- Entrapment., and trespassing. The secret video should not be admissable in court I would think, and the description of the chain of events seem ripe for a judge to award the studio owner significant punitive damages. I think it is high time for a full on Waves boycott. I cannot stand business practices such as these, and I certainly will not give them any financial reward for it.

any lawyers comment?

charles maynes

Boy-

Entrapment? I guess I was just extra pissed-off at humanity that day...


But seriously-

Waves is suffering from a whole lot of user dissatisfaction here-

Yes, they have had problems with piracy. It seems that the copy-protection they chose to use was vulnerable to hacking. Making a fair number of their legal customers chumps for spending their money on legal vs illegal software. However, I think that when Waves instituted the "WUP" plan- which is one of the only subscription plans in the industry, it seemed to many that, instead of fixing the real problem of software theft, they were instead charging their legitimate users to make up the losses they were suffering. Even when finally moving to the iLok, they had their own way they wished to deal with it, bypassing the convenience of iLok's zdt, and otherwise good customer service.

Waves has every right to protect their interests, but they seem to be the only company who is feeling compelled to do it in such an ugly way.

Other companies like McDSP, who have about the best record ever for customer support- has yet to charge for an update- since ProTools 3!, And when the iLok came out, they saw their sales go up, and piracy go down.


charles maynes

[henryrobinett]

Yay! Go Waves! LOL.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by APOHStudios

One would hope that Waves has read this thread. They probably haven't or have and don't care.

Good customer service would address the issues raised here, and there have been a lot of them.

Waves has had good marketing, and has captured a large market share because of it. ProTools has done the same, as in the marketing/share aspect. Is ProTools a good program, it sure is, but why is it that most pro studios use it? Good program + good marketing, is why. That, coupled with the fact it was a Mac program (used to be Mac were safe because of lack of viruses out there).

But when it comes down to it, you are still just converting and recording 1's and 0's. Most DAW's out there are pretty successful at this. I don't want this to be a ProTools thread, I have just used them as an example.

Like I said, Waves was able to gain a significant foothold on the plug-in market with the proper marketing. But by alienating their customer base with added fees and poor customer support, it will hurt them in the long run. The only way to really send a message to this or any company with a policy you disagree with is with your money. You disagree with the way they do something, don't buy it and don't use it. And whatever you do, don't steal it. Because all that does is show them that even though you do not like their business practices, it is not enough of a dis-incentive for you to still desire/use their product. With that kind of a user-base thinking, Waves has no reason to change and they can just go after you to make up any lost revenue due to lower sales. They might even make more than if you had bought it legit.


But going after theft, by using any legitimate method available, is acceptable.

well stated-

charles maynes

[Stratgirl]

[quote=Tibbon;1366275]Just as much as the Enron execs still had to worry after they declared bankruptcy.

A corporation does not shield a person from criminal activity. Theft is criminal activity, as is piracy.

quote]

Enron dealt with a different issue. The Ceos of Enron essentially lied to raise stock value which artificially boosted pension funds. When the shareholders discovered it, they brought a shareholder’s derivative action naming themselves as the injured parties, and sued the ceos. It was essentially a situation of the corporation suing the ceos.
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
Sounds like Waves is threatening to sue based upon the misappropriation of a license, which is a tort. In this situation, in order to hold an individual personally liable for the acts of a corporation, Waves would have to find a way to “pierce the corporate veil”. Whether or not they will be able to do that depends on whether or not the corporation (studio) was legitimately a corporation, the size of the corporation (i.e .just one guy, or were several people on the payroll), and many other factors. If the studio is really just an alter ego for the owner, and there’s no separate entity, then there’s a risk he can be held personally liable. But, if it’s a legitimate studio that existed as a separate entity, Waves most likely can only hold the corporation liable. And if the corporation is out of business, then good luck collecting.
<o:p></o:p>
But, let’s get practical. Sounds like Waves mailed a handful of threatening letters demanding $20,000 in damages. Any lawyer would want a $15,000 retainer up front to start an action in Federal Court. The risk of Waves actually winning enough lawsuits to recoup their legal fees is slim. Which is why, as of last month, they have yet to file any lawsuits in any Federal Court in the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:place w:st="on"><st1:country-region w:st="on">U.S.</st1:country-region></st1:place> (no idea about other countries, sorry).
<o:p></o:p>
If I was a studio that received one of these letters, I would ignore it. I definitely wouldn’t contact them to settle until a Summons and Complaint was filed, and I was deep into the discovery process and actually saw copies of the supposed videos they have of my studio committing the acts they’re claiming. Only then, once I was sure I was caught red-handed, would I then call and try to negotiate.
<o:p></o:p>
If I was a studio currently using cracked plug-ins, I would BUY THE LICENSE! If I just had to run cracked plug—ins until I saved up to buy the real thing, I would have everyone entering my studio sign a contractual indemnity agreement. Something along the lines of …in the event that they’re there for any purpose not expressly stated in the agreement (recording, mixing, etc.), or in the event that they’re an agent, employee, or under the direction of a corporation, they agree that both them and the corporation will indemnify them from any and all losses accruing from their visit, including costs and attorney’s fees, etc., and that by signing it they acknowledge they have authorization to make this agreement on behalf of the corporation, yada yada. At least if you get sued, you can cross-claim against the guy hat provided the evidence and break even.

[T_R_S]

How does Waves know WHO your plug-ins are even registered to?
For example my business address is different from my studio. Plus "XYZ" studios might be using house engineer's "Joe Shmuck's" Gold Bundle.

But on the other hand if any one is dumb enough to advertise cracked plug-ins to clients they should get what's coming to them.

[mac black]

I can't see the problem here ... If you're using cracked plugins (especially in a commercial facility)... be prepared to pay.
Its the same as illegal downloads, why do you think everyone in the business earns less ?
Why is the business in such a crisis?
If people want free entertainment, they can watch free entertainers, on you tube.
If you don't like a product or the price of a product ... don't get it.
When I put a record out, Its already on Russian download sites (for free) and there is nothing I can do ... except write to BPI which don't do anything.

So, If my livelyhood depends on record/download sales, I need this money to keep buying gear and paying people, If I get a 1/3 of my expected income due to illegal downloads, it means I'll spend a 1/3 of what I should on gear and employees.

Its like a snow ball and its getting worse, cracked software, illegal downloads...what's next?

[Stratgirl]

Originally Posted by mac black

Its the same as illegal downloads, why do you think everyone in the business earns less ?
Why is the business in such a crisis?

The recording industry is in decline because people don't want to pay for something they're used to getting for free, and labels are too stubborn to shift their methods of distribution to meet today's demand. If artists made their albums available to download for free, supplemented with advertising income, they'd probably be better off. for example, allowing someone to download an album for free, but have them watch a 30 second commercial before they download each song. You get paid per song for advertising income by the corporation, your fans get to download music for free, and everyone's happy. But instead of coming up with new ideas, the labels decided to just sue everyone instead. Thus, alienating their consumers even further.

Waves is digging themselves deeper into this same hole by suing their market base instead of switching to a hardware-software interface platform. Suing people just makes them not want to deal with you or your company. It doesn't make people stop using what they can get for free.

[heathen]

Originally Posted by Stratgirl

Waves is digging themselves deeper into this same hole by suing their market base instead of switching to a hardware-software interface platform. Suing people just makes them not want to deal with you or your company. It doesn't make people stop using what they can get for free.

Exactly, anyway thier software is so expensive they could afford to hand dsp cards for free with the bundles. This is the reason no-one is bitching about cracked UAD1 plugs. Seems as though they anticipated this from the start.

Still they are going after the easy target instead of stopping it from the start, if they think they are going to get money out of this I reckon they should think again, they are going to destroy some young families when they send out these $75000 legal notices, I don't think someone who could not afford the plugs in the beginning is going to have the cash to settle.

Do the crime do the time but........ this is a cruel and unusual punishment if the end result means destroying young families lives, I can't see a judge doing that to anyone for using some cracked software.

I don't think thier little films will stand up in court either, with all the digital trickery which can be performed these days anything can be faked.

[mac black]

I don't believe anyone will get sued ... its expensive for both parties and a very long and gray process, anyhow ... Can you Imagine waves suing like 1000s of users illegal users...


Kids, don't do Crack !

[popgoestheweazel]

It's all true and even worse than I first thought. 3 of my close friends have been done by WAVES - here is why they are out of order:

1. They had no reason to suspect the producers were using cracked software, they went out to trap people ... no worse, 2 of my friends only downloaded the try before you buy version as a result of WAVES personal (spy) saying "I am a singer who wants to record an album IF you have waves".

If they didn't mention waves software my firneds would not have downloaded it, so its insightment and entrapment.

2. All 3 of my friends work from home, 2 in there bedroom and 1 of them has NEVER made money from producing, yet all have to pay the $11,700 that WAVES is suing for .... mmm nice guys at Waves!

3. When my mates (who by the way had never used waves software before this but wanted the gig that was dangled like a carrott by the crooks at waves) said that they only downloaded the software to get the job and then uninstalled it, the responce from Waves was "sorry you have broken our terms and if you dont pay now we will take you to court and you'll pay a lot more for our lawyer fees (dating back to whenever they started investigating)

Be careful people, we all should buy the software we use, and if we cant we should aim to buy it when we make some money from using it ... but the heavy handed apprroach by the Isreal spies and the scare tactics have left a bad taste in my mouth regards Waves. I WILL NEVER USE THERE SHIT, Never have and Never will.

[Legitpit]

It is certainly an uncomforting situation especially having someone turn up asking if they can have their band recorded only if Waves v5 can be used as "part of the production because of the amazing clarity".
- Hey wow, 9 days of a paying client, though only if waves v5 is used, hmmm, what can be done here. I dont have waves so, what to do, what to do....?? Gotta get through the meeting and get the job... Is the money available for the software? Nope, so what to do?

Is it available elsewhere?

Maybe... the software can be demo'd right?

Wrong, not V5

waves only allows V4 as a demo version on their download site! So, they asked for V5, and the only available V5 is a dodgy one, so what to do? Get the job or not?

Entrapped, yes!

Are you thinking what I am thinking, how do you work it from here without sufficient funds????

Waves, how much money do you plan on making from people that just don't have the funds to buy your silly priced software? and why entrap? You have the funds to make the software uncrackable I am sure without having to go to small fry. Why not send a letter to just say, we know what you're doing + destroy or seep the consequences!

I think they are trying to scare everyone, as most do not have funds to get lawyers, so they hope to make money through people just paying them off. It be a crazy thang!!! It be crazy!!!

[Volodia]

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

It's all true and even worse than I first thought. 3 of my close friends have been done by WAVES - here is why they are out of order:

1. They had no reason to suspect the producers were using cracked software, they went out to trap people ... no worse, 2 of my friends only downloaded the try before you buy version as a result of WAVES personal (spy) saying "I am a singer who wants to record an album IF you have waves".

If they didn't mention waves software my firneds would not have downloaded it, so its insightment and entrapment.

2. All 3 of my friends work from home, 2 in there bedroom and 1 of them has NEVER made money from producing, yet all have to pay the $11,700 that WAVES is suing for .... mmm nice guys at Waves!

3. When my mates (who by the way had never used waves software before this but wanted the gig that was dangled like a carrott by the crooks at waves) said that they only downloaded the software to get the job and then uninstalled it, the responce from Waves was "sorry you have broken our terms and if you dont pay now we will take you to court and you'll pay a lot more for our lawyer fees (dating back to whenever they started investigating)

Be careful people, we all should buy the software we use, and if we cant we should aim to buy it when we make some money from using it ... but the heavy handed apprroach by the Isreal spies and the scare tactics have left a bad taste in my mouth regards Waves. I WILL NEVER USE THERE SHIT, Never have and Never will.

It's a fake . To try you have to register and have an ILOK . There's no demo that works without authorisation .

[Legitpit]

Originally Posted by Volodia

It's a fake . To try you have to register and have an ILOK . There's no demo that works without authorisation .

Yes there is without an ilok, and without registration, see and try here: Downloads - only v4 however!!!

[Volodia]

Anyway no one forces you to have everything . If someone asks for a 47 and you don't have it , do you steal it ?

If it's a real demo that was downloaded you risk nothing , but most of the time it's version with an "ilok resetter" .

I have a studio and you can be sure that I forbid any installation or addition of plugins on my system by third parties . Stability is at this price . If they want to come with their ilok I could authorize but it never happened ( I have a lot of plugs ,all legit) .

If Waves is really doing that (which I doubt) , they probably go after the ones who advertise their plugins in their list .
I've seen studios advertise their illegal software when I asked for an equipment list .

ILOK has done a lot of good and the situation is better than it was at the time of PT5 when even the big studios were full of cracks .

[Stratgirl]

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

If they didn't mention waves software my firneds would not have downloaded it, so its insightment and entrapment.

..oh boy, here we go with entrapment again.

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

All 3 of my friends work from home, 2 in there bedroom and 1 of them has NEVER made money from producing, yet all have to pay the $11,700 that WAVES is suing for

Your post doesn't make sense. No one has to pay Waves anything unless there's a lawsuit that came to conclusion with a verdict in favor of Waves, and a judgment has been entered. Even then... but that's another story.

Also, your friends record in their bedroom for free and they managed to score a big client that demanded they buy thousands of dollars worth of software, and they said yes so they could loose money? fishy.

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

the scare tactics have left a bad taste in my mouth regards Waves. I WILL NEVER USE THERE SHIT, Never have and Never will.

I agree. Same here. I will think long and hard before supporting their company in the future. There's a million better ways of handlig the issue of stolen software other than threatening to ruin people. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the people they go after have legitimate licenses, and are forced to spend thousands defending themselves. go Waves.

[Kris]

Originally Posted by popgoestheweazel

and if we cant we should aim to buy it when we make some money from using it ...

That's what credit cards are for.

[Mikey MTC]

There's so many holes in these so called tactics being levelled at Waves that it's stupid. Come on guys ... if you're going to create a smear campaign against Waves, it needs to be more plausible. Tell us some stories about Waves threatening middle sized to larger studios for a start. That would make more sense.

[Stratgirl]

For everyone that "knows a friend" that received one of these letters from Waves, any chance you could scan one and post it for us to see?

[Duardo]

There's so many holes in these so called tactics being levelled at Waves that it's stupid. Come on guys ... if you're going to create a smear campaign against Waves, it needs to be more plausible.

Exactly...looks at how many posts the people in this thread who "know somebody" have:

popgoestheweazel 1 post
Legitpit 2 posts
Free the Bee 2 posts
blockrockin 2 posts

They drop by, tell their sad story, maybe reply once, and then they're gone, never to be heard from again...

[blockrockin]

nope im still here . just been reading the posts everyday. interesting to read everyones thoughts on the subject ....

[Free The Bee]

I'm still here too... reading daily to see what others think of this.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
<o:p></o:p>
I will get hold of the letter and post it but might have to wait until an agreement has been reached so not to jeopardise it.

I hope people will understand that certain information on that letter will be blanked out to protect 'my friends' identity.

[Whitecat]

Hmmm. -If- the stories are fake, is this:

a) a smear campaign by disgruntled Waves users/ex-users?

Or

b) a scaremongering campaign by Waves themselves to frighten people into buying licenses?

[MathematikI]

Sorry for being new as well...
But I also know 2 guys who got served....
... one got 15,000$...and another 20,000$...but as far as I know they gave them the oppurtunity to buy the bundles they were caught using
...in order to drop the case...

I also heard another horror story told in the Ableton forum...

I'm rooting for Waves on this one... stealing is stealing...

Waves processors are amazing to me... they are my go to plugs...
and I don't think people hating their tactics got anything to do with this...
this is using another man's gear w
If I were developing pro software for years ...
and could find people that use them illegally I would Sue the Shits out of them...

You do not really think that Waves makes cheap software and Charges their users the extra to cover their losses (or for using ilok) ... That's just silly!!!
Where is all this hatin' coming from?
Waves plugs are one of the most researched and precise pieces of software I know... They are a joy to work on and I'm glad I got'em
Money is spent on DEVELOPMENT mostly... even
Nothing to do with Greed...

If you can't do the time... then... well you know the rest...

[MathematikI]

[double post]

[Free The Bee]

Originally Posted by terminal3

Hmmm. -If- the stories are fake, is this:

a) a smear campaign by disgruntled Waves users/ex-users?

Or

b) a scaremongering campaign by Waves themselves to frighten people into buying licenses?

So if it's B then does that mean Waves have organised their own smear compaign???

[idlabs]

This is some of the silliest ish I've seen on this site. Why do all the "friends of friends" posts keep doubling? Why are they all new members? Uhh, maybe I'm the dummy, but this a smokescreen if I ever saw one. I shudder to think of the ramifications of threads like this.
On the other hand, I'm glad people are calling attention to this subject. The use of cracked software is a problem. As is alot of other things concerning intelectual property and the rampant theft of it on the internet.
That being said, IF this is Waves using this site to scare people into paying for thier software, fck them. That's not why this place exits.

[vixapphire]

I've seen one of the letters. It is real. A pretty straightforward form demand letter, done via a "mail-merge" program, on some Nebraska solo-practitioner's letterhead.

What's strange is that Waves uses the Chicago IP firm of Ladas & Perry for their intellectual property representation; would be interesting to get the story behind this Nebraska attorney's involvement.

Notwithstanding the exceptionally thorough law school exam answer regarding piercing the corporate veil, which may have been a bit outside the scope of the discussion, Stratgirl has hit it right on with her recommendations.

[dlmorley]

A (very) small side thought!

If I want to borrow a friends Manley or whatever bit of hardware, I just ask him and use it for a session
If I do the same with a plug in, looks like I could be up for a $25,000 letter

I have had 1 person call about recording and want a Neumann. I don't have one. SO, I borrow one. I don't have to rush out and buy one.
It would be odd for Neumann to call me up and book a session saying they need a U87ai and then to check the serial number and sue me for not owning it

Not saying wrong or right, just a thought!