clients wont pay, what can i do?

[petessound@hotm]

im totally bummed out at the moment, if anyone can help me on this on it would be great. im owed quite a lot of money form a major British band at the moment and the managment keep fobbing me off.

its been over 40 days since i invoiced, how long do you guys wait before you start freaking out?

ive got no real proof that i did any of the programming that i did so im not sure what i can do legally.

im ment to start working for them again shortly....

[nandoanalog]

Call the guy, and tell him that if you dont receive full payment within 3 days, you will pay to some black gueto dude to shoot him and his family.

If he doesn`t pay, get the gueto dude, give him some money and crack, and make him kill that guy family.

I`m pretty sure he will pay you after his family is dead.

[adrianex]

Did you gave anything before getting paid??

[petessound@hotm]

yep i gave them everything, every little bit. i guess thats the harsh lesson here. should i go back i will have access to all my work again, spose i could just take it? surely they would ruin my name if i did?

nandoanalog, know any getto dudes?

if only we just had to do our job! this is the part i hate

[nandoanalog]

You can also spread really bad propaganda about that band... Hopefully, they will go big, and the label will pay you to shut your mouth... And then you wake up, and it was only a dream...

Killing works fine.

[adrianex]

uhmmm, from my experience, you should take it as a lesson and try to get it solve in the best "amigable" way possible; hey you still need to figth for your money, but don't let emotions get in the way of business, just keep calling and keep being on top of things if you wanna see your $$$...

music business is really small to burn bridges (unless you can affort it) I know is frustaring and it sucks, but as you stated on your post...u don't even have enough "legal proof" to do anything that way..

Next time.....don't give them anything until they pay, believe me if they really need it they'll do anything to pay it or get at least garantee (beside their word)...

just my opinion

[petessound@hotm]

thanks adrianex, thanks to you there will be no blood shed!

[adrianex]

Originally Posted by petessound@hotm

thanks adrianex, thanks to you there will be no blood shed!

thumbsup

[Cosmic Closet]

If you are working with a major British band, where's the contract?

How can there be 'no proof' of your work??

Was there anything....ANYTHING...in writing??

You are right, you only need to do your job. In the future, hire a lawyer to handle the paperwork.

The only leverage I see in all this (and it is most likely a very small one) is that you say you are scheduled to work with them again. So if you have created something soooo good for them that they don't want to go elsewhere, you can insist on at least getting paid before you work again. But, like I said, what are the odds....

The hardball solution is to smile and get access to the studio long enough to get your hands on your original work and get it out of there before it has been copied. That way, suddenly they will listen to questions about invoices...

But don't ever again get to where you are right now. Because barring your getting the stuff before they use it, or them simply being late in paying in general, there aren't a lot of options left.

[AlexLakis]

You are running a business, and you need to protect yourself. If you let them take advantage of you like that without repercussion, what is that saying about the situation? Where you in the wrong? You must have been if you let them walk away without paying you, right?

Take them to court. Fight it. How much money is it? Would it go to small claims? Do you have a contract? An oral one with a witness? Do you have backup session files of the work? Can you document the progress of your work in court? Witnesses or sworn affidavits from people who witnessed you doing the work?

As a private business owner, you owe it to yourself to take them to court, even if they totally screwed you and you have no way of proving it. That at least shows that you are willing to fight for what is right and stand up for yourself when someone takes advantage of you.

The legal system sucks, but when you own your own business, you have to use it. Otherwise, start knockin' heads off.

[C Heat]

Only 40 days?

Wow, tell me when you get to 90 and then I can empathise.

[Jonboy79]

Originally Posted by petessound@hotm

thanks adrianex, thanks to you there will be no blood shed!

F that, kill the dude's family, then kill the band member's families too. Then hold their record label hostage until they get the Beatles back together.

[Veej007]

record the new stuff and then don't let them have it until they've paid you for everything.

[adrianex]

Originally Posted by Veej007

record the new stuff and then don't let them have it until they've paid you for everything.

good Idea, that way you get everything hostage......

[Improv]

Originally Posted by C Heat

Only 40 days?

Wow, tell me when you get to 90 and then I can empathise.

Only 90 days?

Let me know on the first anniversary

[dlmorley]

I would go about it in as friendly a manner as possible.
As people have said, you could just start work again but this time with a contract (and stipulating that you need paying for previous work too)

TREAD CAREFULLY though as the work you have done if not in writing is a fairly shaky thing...

Also, talk to the band if you are on good terms with them. Last thing they want is bad press from their management not paying bills.
The managements job is to save money but ultimately if the band tell them to pay, they probably will!

[critical]

F#%* that grab the nearest mallet and start ....that ill teach em.

[mikeeusa]

My friend runs a tiny computer fixing buisness in his home (just does some jobs sometimes). When someone didn't pay he eventually called up a repo/collections agency. They get 10% of the pay, you get the rest.

This is in the BEST COUNTRY EVER (USA) so... I don't know what the Brits are like.

USA is the best.
Except that it lets women have rights (bad for men).

You wanna talk about how good the U S A is ?

[rabryars]

Name and Shame ????????????????

Actually might be worth not naming and shaming till you have something sorted, even if it's part payment etc

Good luck sorting it out and feel free to update us.


Bob

[xmostynx]

hey man i'm sure you can call some kind of collections company- or a small claims court- i'm not sure what its like for you Brits, but here in the US- if someone doesn't pay- you can drag their ass through the legal system-

however- next time you do long sessions- or any session- you need contracts!
and you never give anything out fully until every penny is paid. that means they can have master tracks-all mixed down and nice- but there are 3 second drops every 30 seconds, until the bill is paid. if they don't like it..well they better pay off that bill!

i have never had this problem- i learned once when working with a producer who screwed me out of 300bucks. thats not alot of cash- but when rent is banking on it- its all the more cash you need.


drop outs work- and it shows that your a pro and you mean business- as cool as the audio industry is- there will always be crazies! drop outs!

[Kris]

If it's a major label, 40 days is not that long... If you can't help yourself, call once a week to stay on their radar, and after 90 days or so, start the blood bath...

[KingDaddyO]

Have you sent a formal invoice (detailing the services provided) and a brief cover letter inquiring as to when you can expect payment for your services? If not you should do so immediately. Be sure to include a reasonable date by which time they need to respond. This way you will have an official record on file, and there can be no misunderstanding of your intent.

If no answer or positive response is forthcoming, then perhaps there is still a shred of hope before the guns come out. In many regions, a verbal agreement IS considered a binding contract. It all comes down to the credibility of the claim. Whatever evidence you have to back up your claim, versus their predictable denials, will be invaluable in a court of law. Also, any evidence you can provide of your unique programming decisions could be very useful. Ask yourself this simple question - were there any instances of unusual or bizarre programming techniques that you had to use? If so, ask them in court when you cross examine them, to explain specifically why some of these decisions were made. Yeah, it sucks, but you do need to go through every procedural motion of filing a serious lawsuit against them, starting with an official letter (after they have disregarded your initial invoice & letter), stating your case, what is owed, and how long they have to respond before legal action will commence. Even if you don't intend to take this to it's logical conclusion, you should seriously consider taking this as far as you can handle. And if you can act as your own consul (it can be done with proper due diligence, spending time observing similar court cases, etc.) then it will only cost you your time to try and recoup what is owed you and exact satisfaction. What do you have to lose? You're already getting stiffed. They (on the other hand) will need to pay a lawyer, or reimburse whoever advances them their legal fees, for every motion, court appearance, continuance, etc. that you have the right to file. Hell, it may take years, but if you can take the perspective of 'it's just business', and remain cool & collected while you rattle their cage, then you may be able to enjoy the satisfaction of knowing that they will be much more annoyed by the inevitable fact that you haven't given up, and have no intention of doing so. Eventually they will tire of the inconvenience or the expenses in dealing with you ... and you can negotiate a settlement. You may even be able to include civil damages on top of the original claim, due to the extreme crap that they forced you to go through to collect your honest recompense. One caveat: If you do decide to pursue this DIY style, remember that presentation is everything - your communications, court preparation, appearances, etc. should all indicate the seriousness and confidence of your intent to succeed in this pursuit. Judges respect being treated with respect. These fellows won't be so well informed or prepared, as they have already proven by the way they are screwing with you.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND ... Art's suggestion is a novel one, and one which I find particularly appropriate in a mercenary justice kind of way. You must have lots of outakes & bloopers ... I usually find that there is plenty of material available for, um ... creative repackaging, that needs no retouching to strike the fear of musical shame & impotence into at least one band member. All the better if you don't monkey with it, as they can easily cry foul. If they just plain sucked on some sessions then you have given them no ammunition whatsoever to discredit you.

Best of luck to you - keep us informed if things heat up!

[everybody's x]

90 days is pretty standard for bigger companies

of course so is not paying at all


never give anything out until it's paid for

thats why voxengo made the "beep" plug in

use it, love it

[petessound@hotm]

thanks all the replies guys, i feel i have not been the only one screwed over in the past! i sent an email saying i will no longer honor any of my future commitments with the company, which seamed to get the wheels in motion. maybe it pays to throw your weight around bit? still nothing in the post tho....

i'll keep you updated guys

[Improv]

Nice...

Yeah, the problem with us creative types is we can at times be too easy going. The business side of things can suffer as a result. I'm speaking here from personal experience and of personal weaknesses.

Every once in a while you just gotta be "the assh***" to make sure other people treat you with the same respect with which you treat them. It's a shame, but a reality of interfacing with "the real world." It may not feel natural, but it doesn't make you a bad guy because you're nagging them. Stick to your guns and make it right... you deserve no less, they deserve no more.

[KingDaddyO]

Originally Posted by everybody's x

90 days is pretty standard for bigger companies

of course so is not paying at all

HA! LOL ... good balance in them thar' words.

Originally Posted by Improv

Nice...

Yeah, the problem with us creative types is we can at times be too easy going. The business side of things can suffer as a result. I'm speaking here from personal experience and of personal weaknesses.

Every once in a while you just gotta be "the assh***" to make sure other people treat you with the same respect with which you treat them. It's a shame, but a reality of interfacing with "the real world." It may not feel natural, but it doesn't make you a bad guy because you're nagging them. Stick to your guns and make it right... you deserve no less, they deserve no more.

Well put. I truly hate dealing with the business end of things, especially enforcement. But the truth is that you can't assume anything ... and most especially, that others will somehow naturally appreciate how wonderful you are to deal with and return the favor.

But for anyone not yet sure of this advice, trust me ... don't go there. That dog don't hunt. If however, you still remain unconvinced, that you don't need to learn this lesson the hard way, then please at least consider attending my self-improvement course titled: 'How to be your own worst enemy'.

[adam_w]

Yes, they take ages to pay sometimes - 90 days is not unheard of from a major. It's pretty messed up that the people who rely on cash flow the most to survive, such as freelancers and the studios get paid last. Even on top of that, contract-wise you're lucky if a deal memo makes it through, never mind an actual contract ! I think it's a bit more wild n loose over here, Pete ! The thing is, ironically if you start witholding things before payment arrives, even though people want things now now now you get branded as uncooperative. It's a pretty damn unprofessional profession sometimes.

My tip, is once they start saying it's with accounting, it's useful to find some innocent in accounting to hassle mercilessly to the point of a nervous breakdown as they aren't used to it.

With smaller companies...well, who knows if your money will ever show up. It's even worse when a label gives the management the budget...oh deary deary me..be very afraid. I'm owed, mm...gotta be 5k by various, and trust me. I NEED the money !

[E Orjatsalo]

It's really too bad that in recording business our only leverage is usually holding back the master until payed...

My uncle has his own company which designs these computerized systems which run the whole house (well anything electronic in that house). He designed a solution to a local quite large company which he installed at their building. He sent the invoice and nothing happened for about two months, then he sends a second notice and companys lawyer calls him and actually threatens him (!!!) and lets him know that they are not going to pay. My uncle says fine, just try to get system working again and shuts down the whole building (which he can do from his own laptop) , everything is payed immediately and he knows not to do anything to that company again...

Too bad that we can't put some code to audio to make it inaudible when client doesn't pay.

[Abear75]

Originally Posted by petessound@hotm

yep i gave them everything, every little bit. i guess thats the harsh lesson here. should i go back i will have access to all my work again, spose i could just take it? surely they would ruin my name if i did?

nandoanalog, know any getto dudes?

if only we just had to do our job! this is the part i hate

Music -1:00min ---whitenoise ------music ----whitenoise-etc-etc

[xmostynx]

Originally Posted by Abear75

Music -1:00min ---whitenoise ------music ----whitenoise-etc-etc

thats what i was saying!!! you put white noise in every high energy part in the song- so everyone is like..'yea yea AHHhH TURN IT DOWN!!!..wtf was that! better pay that dude'