Is the customer always right? Advice needed!

[djui5]

It's the artists $$, let him do what he wants. Unless your contracted to produce the album, it is what it is. Maybe you don't like the drum loops, but maybe they work great with the music, or maybe they make the artist perform better. Just have the engineer do what they can with what they have, unless you want to sort out a production agreement with the artist. If not, then it's the engineers job to just get stuff to tape, and maybe a little mood coaching.

If your really that worried, don't take on the project.

[roxxon]

Thanks for the input, djui5.
I fully realize that the client is paying for a certain product.
He's a pro guitar player.
With very questionable production skills.


My biggest worry is that the finshed project will sound like ASS!
His last 30k attempt at recording sounded sonically pathetic!
I've hear better sounding demos done on a Tascam or Fostex 4 track recorder with a few Shure mics.

Though some of the songs are pretty decent and do have potential...If proper production values are employed...And I don't see that happening with this guy in my studio.

His beloved drum loops sound as if they are clipping, to add more fun to the mix.

To give you a better idea...
Try to enviosion material from Fleetwood Mac's "Rumors" album with one of the shittiest drums machines that you've ever heard, on all of the tracks, instead of Mick Fleetwood playing his real drums.

I leaning towards not doing this, at all...

[djui5]

Originally Posted by roxxon

His last 30k attempt at recording sounded sonically pathetic!

Well maybe have a sit down with him and explain your feelings, nicely of course, about the situation, and how it would be in his best interest to let you produce the album. Work on a points situation for the production since he's dropping coin for the studio time, or whatever you wanna work out.

If he's a pro guitar player he'll understand that a lot of great albums have been made with producers overseeing the project.

[roxxon]

The thing is...
I really don't want to produce this CD.
I don't think that he would listen to a lot of my input.
I already told him what I thought about the drum loops and about him self-producing the album himself.
But he seemed unphased and uneffected by our converation and my advice.

He also admitted that he was very unhappy with his first CD attempt and it's sonic quality.
The guitar player tried to level the blame on the engineer and the studio that it was recorded in.
It was recorded on good gear.
The gear and the engineer were not likely the CD's biggest downfall.

One person who wears too many hats in the studio, especially a person with limited production skills can really diminish the quality of a potentially viable sonic recording project.

I think I'm going to have another heart to heart talk with my potential client.

Maybe I'll let the engineer do the project without my help.

[dlmorley]

Make sure you get the loops sounding as good as they can and MAKE SURE it says somewhere that the drums were recorded elsewhere.
Then I could live with it. It's his music and no matter how frustrating, part of the job really.
Of course if you can convince him gently to get his drums done properly, cool, but as long as you do your part as well as you can, I don't see a problem (except people may think you recorded the drums, so get that clear that it will be on the CD that you didn't!)

[Infernal Device]

Yikes.

If you do not want him to produce, and you do not want to produce then who will?

Wanna know a great secret? Sit down and tell him everything you just said here. Honest communication has made so many great things at my studio.

Is he paying you for....

Your studio? Give him your engineer and let him have at it!

Your opinion? Give it to him. Don't sugarcoat or go easy. If something sucks tell him you think it sucks.

Him to do it himself at your place? Take the money and enjoy. Set up a weekly rate (NOT A PROJECT RATE)

[roxxon]

Thanks for the suggestions guys!
I hear you loud and clear!

[Rick Sutton]

If you really are going to open a studio you will be dealing with these types of clients for the rest of your professional life. Better get used to it. You really seem to want to be a producer and in that scenario you should be very careful what projects you take on. But, if you are a studio owner and have an engineer willing to do the work you should remove yourself from the production end of the project and trust your engineer to work with the client.

[roxxon]

I forgot to mention something...
My engineer will be doing (if we take on this project) the final mix and master at another place where he also works (a high-end studio).

The guitar player wants to do the final mixdown, himself.

No, I'm not kidding.
He only wants the engineer there to run the gear and tweak the knobs.

I doubt that my engineer buddy will love that "great" idea.

It seems that the guitar player blames the sonic failures on his last CD project on everyone involved, except himself.

I mean his playing ability is great.He's got some good ideas.Some of his songs have great potential...BUT.....
He's one man wearing too many hats and some of those hats are a really bad fit!

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by roxxon

I forgot to mention something...
My engineer will be doing (if we take on this project) the final mix and master at another place where he also works (a high-end studio).

The guitar player wants to do the final mixdown, himself.

No, I'm not kidding.
He only wants the engineer there to run the gear and tweak the knobs.

I doubt that my engineer buddy will love that "great" idea.

It seems that the guitar plater blames the sonic failures on his last failed CD project on everyone involved, except himself.

I mean his playing ability is great.He's got some good ideas.Some of his songs have great potential...BUT.....
He's one man wearing too many hats and some of those hats are a really bad fit!

So..........you don't agree with the artist. Feel blessed that you don't have to be the one in the control room throughout the project. Get another couple of hundred projects under your belt as a studio owner and you'll see that this probably isn't the craziest thing you'll be running into.
Oh, as to a "project" rate. most of us studio owners make that mistake ONCE in our careers.
Best of luck and trust your engineer (if this is indeed the "project from hell" you'll at least get a lot of knowledge of how your engineer handles tough situations).

[roxxon]

Rick,
I didn't open my studio with the intent of running it as a means of financial income.
I revemped my studio to do my own music.
A very poor man's Steely Dan or Alan Parson's Project type of songwriting collaboration
with a number of local musicians.

Side-work is only a bonus.
I fully know what personality types I will have to deal with or whom I will decline to deal with when I and or my engineer take on side projects.

I'm going to level with the guitar dude and tell him what I honestly think.
He may hate me for it.
I owe it to all of us, including him.

Cheers,
Roxxon

[roxxon]

I have a fair amount of experience.
I used to have a 16 track and a few anolog 8 tracks and some modest other recording gear and FX units a few years back.
And I have owned Tascam and Roland VS DAWS.
Mostly doing pre-production demos and my own and my friend's music every so often.

I have expeienced some real headaches and sonic nightmares...
Along with some very pleasant surprises in my time.


The thing is...
I'm not actively seeking business in my studio.
Word of mouth is how and why people are contacting me.
They want cheap rates.

[Rick Sutton]

Originally Posted by roxxon

Rick,
I didn't open my studio with the intent of running it as a means of financial income.
I revemped my studio to do my own music.
A very poor man's Steely Dan or Alan Parson's Project type of songwriting collaboration
with a number of local musicians.

Side-work is only a bonus.
I fully know what personality types I will have to deal with or whom I will decline to deal with when I and or my engineer take on side projects.

I'm going to level with the guitar dude and tell him what I honestly think.
He may hate me for it.
I owe it to all of us, including him.

Cheers,
Roxxon

I applaud you for your honesty. Sometimes it's the way to go (giving the client the "harsh reality" as you see it). I've wrestled with these types of situations for many years. I've always kind of gone with my gut feelings and usually they turn out to be good indicators. It gets a little harder when you gotta make a living selling studio time but 'ya gotta be true to your vision never the less. I hope that you work it out to everybodies benefit and the project is a success.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by roxxon

I'm going to level with the guitar dude and tell him what I honestly think.
He may hate me for it.
I owe it to all of us, including him.

Cheers,
Roxxon

I think this is a great idea. He'll either respect you for your honesty, or flip out. If he flips out, someday down the road he'll realize what you were trying to say, and hopefully come back and make ammends.

A lot of artists like it when your honest, especially high profile one's. They get so much ass kissing all their lives it tends to wear on one.

[Duardo]

First, if you're not going to be producing and he's only hiring your studio/engineer, don't do a flat rate...do an hourly rate. That way if he wants to do twelve overdubs per track, and his girlfriend has a bad day every other day, and he wants to try a bunch of other experiments, then you're covered. You might wind up making a little less than the $8K he suggested but if your instincts are correct you may wind up making more. Or maybe the proverbial ticking clock will help him focus.

As for him producing, if that's what he wants to do, let him do it...if he's there for all of the tracking and mixing and the project winds up sounding like ass then he'll have nobody else to blame, because he was there for the whole process. And if he realizes somewhere along the way how assy the project is sounding, maybe he'll ask you or your engineer for some input and you will be able to help. He'll be happy, you'll be happy, the project will sound good (or at least better than it would have otherwise) so everyone wins.

But the flat rate is scary.

-Duardo

[henryrobinett]

I haven't finished reading all of the replies, but I don't get it. It's his album. He's producing it. He's written it. You're facilitating the recording buy letting him, for a fee, use your studio. Why is this even a discussion? Why are you attempting to wear all the hats? As far as I see it that is beyond your role. I mean REALLY beyond your role. So much so that if I were said artist, it would pss the hell out of me. I haven't finished reading, but so far I haven't read anything that says you're the producer or have been asked to produce. His drums loops are his and his artistic vision is his alone, not an engineers and not a studio owners.

But you know, people are different. I could be entirely off base . . .

[Bdiggy]

Go on take the money and run

Steve Miller

[roxxon]

Henry,
He the guitar player, (prospective client) approached me and asked me if he could record in my home.
He's a friend of a friend.
A nice guy.
We have talked music on several occasions.
I have seen him play live many times.
He is a good musician.
And he's not a bad writer, either.

I completely understand that he can run the whole show, if he's paying his own way.

There are two huge reasons that I care about what kind of product is turned out of my studio...
One of them being a negative reflection on my engineer and myself.
We don't deserve a bad rep. if we don't earn it.

Two: The client is going to also be unhappy with his next sonic turd, wherever he happens to record and produce it without outside help.

The first studio the guy recordered his CD in is a mid-scale studio with some really nice gear and mics.


My studio and my all my gear are worth about 1/8 of the value of that other studio that the client blamed for his last project's disasterous results.

I agree with you, it's his money.
But he's asking me to do this for him as a favor.
No he didn't ask me to produce him, but he suggested that I and my engineer might help him a little.
I want no part of that, personally.
I did not approach this guy, he came to me.

I just don't want either party to end up unhappy with a final product.
As I said, I'm not in this to make money.
If the right project comes up, sure I'll take the money and try to turn out the best recording that we possibly can.
But right now, it doesn't appear that the prospective client is willing to let this happen..
I'm really leaning toward telling him to go elsewhere.

I might be thinking differently if I owned a professional studio and it was my sole form of income.
But it's not.
So I don't have to listen to a bunch of shitty music, played by crappy players who have no idea about production.

To his credit, the prospective client is a good musician, but a producer he's not.

[roxxon]

And Henry...

If my studio was a state-of-the-art recording facility and you were my client...
I couldn't give a rat's ass if you wanted to make one of the worst sounding recordings of all-time.
It would be all about the business.
Supply and demand.
You demand and I would supply.

If you are paying the fee, you would get exactly what you wanted...
You can produce, mix and even record the music yourself.
Take as much time as you want at card rate or with a block of time at discount rate.

I simply wouldn't use your recordings as an endorsement or advertisement
for my studio.
And I would take your money, without hesitation.

This is a different scenario that we are talking about, my home, my space, my time and my sanity.
And I don't want to see the guitar guy needlessly waste anymore money.
The 30k he spent before on his previous cost him his marriage.
He was certain that he was going to be signed by a big record company with that mediocre and sadly produced recording.

Pride comes before a fall...

But not on my time...in this case.

[henryrobinett]

I got it. Makes sense.

See how easy I am? Too bad I'm not a beautiful woman, eh?

[Bdiggy]

Henry,

Don't back up.... you were right.

++++++++++++++++++++

Roxxon,

Regardless of the preamble it's his record to make and
your record to record. If you're not being paid to produce
then let it be. You've made suggestions and tried to give
help but some people are just stubborn. Just do everything within
your power to keep the stink off of you. Sometimes that's all you
can do. Unfortunately it comes with the territory.

Good luck!
Bdiggy

[roxxon]

Thanks for all of your input, everyone.

[djui5]

Originally Posted by roxxon

The 30k he spent before on his previous cost him his marriage.

On a side note, if the guys wife left him because he poured his heart and soul into a project that he had so much faith in he'd drop that kinda coin, then f'k her. She should have seen how hard the man tried and let it alone. It's hard enough to loose out on something like that, but to have your wife leave you too...selfish..

Thankfully mine sticks through, she's a trooper

[Tim Farrant]

I recently mixed some tracks for a project I had nothing to with recording or producing. Some of it was, to my mind, not ready for release. I was open in my opinion, and the band leader (and producer) took it all in and after I pointed out the problems, he understood totally. In the long run, the project will be the better for it.

I'd be straight up and honest how you feel about the material.

Tim.

[henryrobinett]

Originally Posted by Bdiggy

Henry,

Don't back up.... you were right.

I don't really think I'm necessarily wrong, but . . .

Listen if the guy were me I'd tell you to go jump in a lake before I'd let any studio owner/engineer tell me how to do my music. That's me. Regardless of what kind of deal was struck. Your job is to suggest and encourage, educate and insist just short of pulling the plug maybe, but that final call has got to be his, in my opinion.

You own the studio and have quality control issues. Understood. And it's not a commercial studio. Understood. Mainly for your own Steely Danish compositions. You give this friend of a friend a killer flat rate deal. Cool. Cool. But if you do intend to use it commercially, from time to time, you might not want to, on your maiden voyage, so to speak, also not get a reputation for being a dickhead. No offense please. I'm not intending to offend. But a person or business can easily come across as dictitorial SOBs who are too old school, control freaks, and won't use loops, etc.. True or not that's generally not the way a start up business wants to come across, I WOULD THINK. Just something to think about. My experience is personal relations are what really start generating a buzz. Great vibe.

But already I know, from the sounds of it, it'd be the last place I'd come. I'm a writer, musician, arranger, engineer. But before I did any engineering I used a lot of great engineers. I expected them to watch my back. They were responsible for the sound, as was I. They'd talk to me on occassion about using this or that, but they knew they'd better keep thier F-ing mouths shut about anything having to do with the music. They'd never dare. That's why I don't get it.

For me a dangerous line is being crossed with more frequency. And that line is who is responsible for what. But I've never had an engineer cross that line. Maybe because I'm too qualified? Too accomplished? Know what I'm doing? Intimidating? I don't know. But if an engineer does any more than suggest I don't use some samples I've designed my music around, I'm gone. Simple. And not coming back. OK, maybe I'm an asshole. But I know what I'm doing. And I always knew what I was doing, even back when I had no clue. Some times it takes that.

But you know, it's your place. And that's cool. Whatever you decide to do with your place is cool. I get that. It's just not a place I'd want to work. It's cool.

I'm an artist first. And I believe in artists first. Not the client first. The artist.

[Bdiggy]

My Dad had many great sayings as he was a great man.
One of them was....

"Familiarity breeds contempt"

He used it in the context of employer employee relationships but
I think it fits in this context as well.

Bdiggy

[roxxon]

There's a lot more to the story, than I have told you.
I really hope that guy never reads these threads.

He cashed out their RRSPs without telling her about what he was doing.
The majority of their life savings.
The woman works two jobs and is the family's main bread-winner.
Husband just plays band gigs.
Often on a very sporadic basis.

He likes his beer and ganja.

The man is in his mid 40s, his ex-wife is in her early 30s and they have 3 young children.

I don't blame her for dumping him.
She's been carrying him for years and supporting the kids as well for most of their marriage.
When they first were married he had a well-paying day job and he was the family's main bread winner.

About 4 years into the marriage, he quit his job in order to concentrate on his musical career...With his wife's blessings and support.

Nothing pans out for him.
He has trouble keeping a band together for any length of time.
Players come and go.
He tries to go solo and fails.
Then ends up doing duo work on the "B" circuit.

He gets a lot of exposure and ends up doing some studio work for others.
People tell him he's great, and they can't understand why he never made the big time.
He buys into all of this and his ego grows very large.
He then gets some insane idea that he's going to automatically get a major
world-wide recording deal once he releases a self-produced CD.

30k later, one piss-poor CD...One bitter divorce and lots of child support payments later...He actually contributes more money to his ex-wife and kids now, than he did most of the years of his marriage.

He's playing night-time gigs and he now has a day job, again.

His wife originally did support him and his love of music.
She really wanted him to succeed in the music profession.
He should have consulted her before he blew most of their life savings on a self-produced CD, that mostly sounds like ASS!

The poor bugger had no idea what he was getting into...
Producing a good sounding CD, of professional sound quality is far harder than simply playing a few well-placed guitar riffs and licks, within the context of a well-produced and perfectly structured song with a nice groove, in a studio setting as a session player.

I can fully understand his wife's frustration and angst, that led to their divorce.

[henryrobinett]

Hey I can understand the wifes frustration too. I don't blame her one bit for kicking his ass out. Now what has this got to do with you and him? I don't see the connection at all. How is this relevant to the question on the table? I mean, come on. What business is it to you or your studio?

[roxxon]

Henry, once again...
He approached me.
I didn't offer my studio up to him.
He asked me to do him a favor.

I'm not seeking bands to record.
If I was, I can understand why someone like you would not want to play in my studio.If of course, I laid out personal-musical taste stipulations for you to abide by, if you wanted to play in my studio.
That would be absurd!


Really I'm not asking anyone to play there except people who I personally want to write and record with.

This isn't a business (Studio) that I would get into if I wanted to make money.There's a lot of competition.

Old School or Old Fool?
I'm not all that old, 47 years.
I'm fully open to any new ideas, especially when great soinic quality is concerned.
I may not be young but I'm also not only "old school."

You have made some decent points.
Just to let you know...
I don't have a huge ego and I am very flexible.
I'm sort of worried that this guy is going to be very disappointed with his next recording project where ever he does it, if he wants to produce and pretty much play all of the instruments.
I'm going to kindly suggest that he hire a real producer and use a real drummer or some much better sounding drum loops.
And that maybe he should find another studio to record his CD at.

All of your input and opinions have helped me out a lot.
I'm going to be talking to him tomorrow...
I'll let you know how it goes...




And Henry:

Originally Posted by djui5

On a side note, if the guys wife left him because he poured his heart and soul into a project that he had so much faith in he'd drop that kinda coin, then f'k her. She should have seen how hard the man tried and let it alone. It's hard enough to loose out on something like that, but to have your wife leave you too...selfish..

Thankfully mine sticks through, she's a trooper

Was what the thread beore this was all about, it's very relevant, indeed.

This guy again believes that his next recording project will seal a big recording deal for him.
His ticket to the bigtime.
It's nice to dream, but stark reality can be so cruel.
This is another reason that, I'm very hesitant to let him record at my home.
His expectations are highly unrealistic.

I don't want to see the guy "crash" right before my eyes.
I have a great amount of empathy and sympathy for this dude and his family.
The favor that he wants from me might not be a favor in reality.