Login / Register
 
i hate when i write a song and it sounds like something allready recorded
New Reply
Subscribe
gear head
Thread Starter
#1
26th February 2007
Old 26th February 2007
  #1
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 190

Thread Starter
gear head is offline
i hate when i write a song and it sounds like something allready recorded

i started writing this song last night on guitar, melody came first and i started writing, and just now i was on you tube and checking out some matthew good acoustic stuff and he has a new song that sounds exactly liek what i wrote same melody and i like it and i don't want to change it, allto i don't think matthew has recorded this song yet, and i have no idea how to change the melody to make it sound good again, i'm so new to writing originals
#2
26th February 2007
Old 26th February 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 1,909

redddog is offline
Here's my take on this subject.

It happens. If it is a direct infringment from start to finish, you have to scrap it. If a melody in a verse is similar and the chorus and format are different, you're fine. The fact is that everybody gets ideas from each other. Bo Didley could have sued hundreds of times. No body, as far as I know, has been able to patent 1-4-5, and that's 80% of music.

My rule:

If I ripped off a song, I'll have to live with that. And that's not good Karma. If I write a song that happens to sound similar to another song, whatever. Most likely the guy who wrote the song that you're worried about got it from someone else too.

I remember reading an interview with Amy Mann and she was laughing about how she took ideas blatently. Same with Petty. Everyone hears cool stuff and has their own take. There's a fine line between an interpretation and a rip-off.

The practical take on it is that it's a pretty long shot that it will ever matter anyway. It would have to be a smash hit to be able to even be noticed and there would have to be a substantial amount of cash that the litigant would stand to gain by going after you. This kind of infringement is usually brought on from the other angle. Some piss-poor bastard sues Justin Timberlake for stealing "Sexy Back." Not the other way around.

I could be wrong, of course.
#3
26th February 2007
Old 26th February 2007
  #3
Gear nut
 
ootle's Avatar
 
Joined: Jul 2006
Location: The Netherlands
Posts: 144

ootle is offline
writing songs you already know is the best way to get in the charts though
__________________


De antwoorden zijn altijd al aanwezig.

www.twitter.com/ootlesound
#4
26th February 2007
Old 26th February 2007
  #4
Gear nut
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: California
Posts: 100

geizo94 is offline
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
I know exactly where you're coming from, and you'd be surprised how just changing one or two notes in the hook will differentiate your song from "that other song", without changing the overall feel.
<o:p></o:p>
I recently thought I was the shit because I wrote a kick ass song and then somebody told me to listen to "that’s all" by Genesis. There really is nothing more depressing.<o:p></o:p>
#5
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #5
Gear Guru
 
Joined: Jun 2002
Location: New York
Posts: 15,120

joeq is online now
I once "wrote" My Bonnie Lassie

A college I attended had bagpipes and drums instead of tubas and glockenspiels for their marching band and every saturday morning they would practice outside my dorm. I always slept in on saturdays and I guess it just seeped into my subconscious. tutt


Quote:
Originally Posted by gear head
just now i was on you tube and checking out some matthew good acoustic stuff and he has a new song that sounds exactly liek what i wrote same melody and i like it and i don't want to change it, allto i don't think matthew has recorded this song yet,
well if there is a clip on you tube then he HAS recorded it, hasn't he?
#6
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #6
Lives for gear
 
xmostynx's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 2,302

Send a message via AIM to xmostynx
xmostynx is offline
i do this when i'm writing jingles...i have no clue why but i'll be listening to what i'm doing the next day, and be like i have to start over!

its never cool to ripp of a song- i mean thats puff daddy kinda stuff..

and like someone else said- bad karma.
__________________
-Make no mistakes I am what you make me
http://www.myspace.com/xmostynx
#7
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #7
Lives for gear
 
gsilbers's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora La Reina de Los Angeles de Porciuncula
Posts: 3,858

gsilbers is offline
i had the great experience to work with one of the top producers here in the US.. and he comented on the subject with something like this:

a song will always sound like another song that came before. rock from blues , blues from jazz, etc etc... all the way back from africa and old europe.

the trick is to make it sound like other "good" songs but you cant tell what it is.
if u suddenly say.. it sounds just like aerosmith, then u went too far, not in copyrite problems but in just plain imitating something that already happened and milked.

you want to get to where a song sounds like a mix of diferent songs to u. like when you 1st heard range against the machine or Korn and you try to explain to your friend who never listened to those bands.. its like nirvana but with a kinda kick ass rapping with a hook like XXX.... well just an example.

my 2cents to share.
#8
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #8
Gear maniac
 
Windshore's Avatar
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Location: LA
Posts: 184

Windshore is online now
The other angle of this is that we live in a time where more people are writing, and more tunes are accessible from the past than ever before in history. The fact is that you can be genuinely creating a melody you've never heard before, and have it come out the same as something already out there. It's very easy to do.... look at the blues... how many melodies are basically the same?

If you have discovered your song to be too much like something else, my feeling is just let it go... move on... there are more where that came from. If you write a lot, you will have some winners, some duds, and some knock-offs... you just have to keep writing!
gear head
Thread Starter
#9
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #9
Gear maniac
 
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 190

Thread Starter
gear head is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by gear head View Post
i started writing this song last night on guitar, melody came first and i started writing, and just now i was on you tube and checking out some matthew good acoustic stuff and he has a new song that sounds exactly liek what i wrote same melody and i like it and i don't want to change it, allto i don't think matthew has recorded this song yet, and i have no idea how to change the melody to make it sound good again, i'm so new to writing originals
it's called matthew good metal airplanes, anybody heard it before
#10
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #10
Lives for gear
 
woomanmoomin's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,020

woomanmoomin is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by gsilbers View Post
i had the great experience to work with one of the top producers here in the US.. and he comented on the subject with something like this:

a song will always sound like another song that came before. rock from blues , blues from jazz, etc etc... all the way back from africa and old europe.

the trick is to make it sound like other "good" songs but you cant tell what it is.
if u suddenly say.. it sounds just like aerosmith, then u went too far, not in copyrite problems but in just plain imitating something that already happened and milked.

you want to get to where a song sounds like a mix of diferent songs to u. like when you 1st heard range against the machine or Korn and you try to explain to your friend who never listened to those bands.. its like nirvana but with a kinda kick ass rapping with a hook like XXX.... well just an example.
I can't help thinking this sounds like a recipe for some kind of lame-@ss musical pastiche. You might as well go the whole hog and play a medley of covers. I'll admit that I can totally understand the approach, however, and that it has served a lot of people well... maybe too well.

As for the idea that one song (or genre) will inevitably sound like another, which will inevitably sound like another, which will inevitably sound like another, and so on, unto the very face of GOD ... I am not so sure this applies to all music. It sure as Hell applies to a lot of music, but quite a lot of that would be pretty mundane music (though not necessarily any less enjoyable for all that), and I'm sure there is other, more striking and/or challenging stuff out there.

Anyway, whether or not anyone can be 100% original, some ways of applying influences are more innovative than others. If you listen to the classic rock song 'My Generation' by The Who, for instance, you will find that the lead vocal lines are separated by a repetitive phrase (involving the words 'talkin' 'bout my generation' and a pretty pedestrian chord sequence) that was deliberately modelled on doo-wop. The result is very catchy, but it's not exactly like any doo-wop I have ever heard! As far as I know, there weren't many doo-wop musicians playing loud, jagged guitar riffs before smashing up their gear like The Who's Pete Townshend. There is some serious cross-pollination going on here, and the principles still apply.

True originality may be pretty much impossible, but that doesn't mean we have to make do with forgetting about it and become serial rip-off artists, regurgitating all the same old influences in the same old ways as so many other people.

My own view is that if a person finds that every piece of music he or she writes sounds like something that's already out there, he or she could probably do much worse than to try to broaden the range of his or her musical and general cultural influences, though definitely not in a transparently superficial collect-the-influences sort of way. There is a breathtaking range of approaches to music out there, and a breathtaking assortment of tunings, rhythms, instrumentation, instrumental and vocal techniques, etc. There is no reason on earth why people should limit themselves to what's going on in their own backyards or whatever.

I have known too many musicians and songwriters who have wanted all their songs to sound like those of the latest successful bands, but I absolutely do not see the point. Whatever the point of music is, it's not just to ape a lot of other music!! In any case, take an approach like that and the credibility of your music will live and die with the credibility of the music you 'reference'.
#11
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #11
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 3,827

Send a message via Yahoo to Jose Mrochek
Jose Mrochek is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by gear head View Post
i started writing this song last night on guitar, melody came first and i started writing, and just now i was on you tube and checking out some matthew good acoustic stuff and he has a new song that sounds exactly liek what i wrote same melody and i like it and i don't want to change it, allto i don't think matthew has recorded this song yet, and i have no idea how to change the melody to make it sound good again, i'm so new to writing originals
haha coooool, welcome to my world 24/7

bottomline, learn to live with it. Have fun, record songs.. sleep well, don't worry about it. You will get used to it. EVERYONE is a slight copy from everyone.
__________________
www.thejoti.com

www.myspace.com/thejoti

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sR116su2Uuo


¨But, then again, I'm British and think you Yanks with your fancy pre for each track are a bunch of weirdos¨ Mark
#12
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #12
Lives for gear
 
chymer's Avatar
 
Joined: Oct 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 853

Send a message via MSN to chymer
chymer is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windshore View Post
The other angle of this is that we live in a time where more people are writing, and more tunes are accessible from the past than ever before in history. The fact is that you can be genuinely creating a melody you've never heard before, and have it come out the same as something already out there. It's very easy to do.... look at the blues... how many melodies are basically the same?

If you have discovered your song to be too much like something else, my feeling is just let it go... move on... there are more where that came from. If you write a lot, you will have some winners, some duds, and some knock-offs... you just have to keep writing!
thumbsup
#13
27th February 2007
Old 27th February 2007
  #13
Gear maniac
 
Joined: May 2006
Location: European Union
Posts: 174

Send a message via Skype™ to siegfried
siegfried is offline
I once wrote a killer song, but holy sh*t, it was the same as Lou Reed´s Perfect Day
__________________
Sorry for my broken english!
#14
18th March 2007
Old 18th March 2007
  #14
Gear maniac
 
raggedman's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2007
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 189

Send a message via Yahoo to raggedman
raggedman is offline
yea... I once "wrote" "rockin in the free world"
#15
18th March 2007
Old 18th March 2007
  #15
Gear addict
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 359

zaczac is offline
Whenever I try someone elses idea, it always comes out differently anyway. It has positives and negatives.


Your melody may be the same as another, but I'm sure you can do something to the song to make it your own.
#16
18th March 2007
Old 18th March 2007
  #16
Lives for gear
 
AlexLakis's Avatar
 
Joined: Mar 2005
Location: Annapolis, MD/Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 3,630

AlexLakis is offline
Yeah, I've learned to not have that be a show-stopper for me. I just let it go now. I should be lucky enough to have original material released that will generate enough popularity for people to start pointing fingers.

It's never intentional. Possibly sometimes subliminal, most of the time random coiincidence.

Some songs I've "written" (from what I'm remembering right now

Smashing Pumpkins "Disarm" (everything but the lyrics)
Nirvana "Mexican Seafood" (the verse)
Guns n' Roses "November Rain" (the verse)

#17
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #17
Lives for gear
 
GearBit's Avatar
 
Joined: Feb 2005
Location: Sydney
Posts: 5,676

GearBit is offline
It never stopped led zeppelin or ZZ top so why should it stop you?
#18
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #18
Lives for gear
 
woomanmoomin's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,020

woomanmoomin is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by zaczac View Post
Whenever I try someone elses idea...
Try? You mean steal?
#19
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #19
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: tx
Posts: 8,802

max cooper is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by woomanmoomin View Post
Try? You mean steal?
It's a fine line.

Instead of trashing the song, you could give credit, like the Stones did k.d. lang.
#20
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Kestral's Avatar
 
Joined: May 2004
Location: The Lost Moon of Poosh
Posts: 1,762

Kestral is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by siegfried View Post
I once wrote a killer song, but holy sh*t, it was the same as Lou Reed´s Perfect Day
That's too funny. I once wrote Lou Reed's "Sweet Jane" and I thought it sucked ass. I still do to this day. What a piece of crap song, how could that turd have been a hit? :confused:
#21
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #21
Lives for gear
 
gsilbers's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2006
Location: El Pueblo de Nuestra Senora La Reina de Los Angeles de Porciuncula
Posts: 3,858

gsilbers is offline
good composer borrow, great composer steal.. eh

damn, there is no icon for a bandit

this one will do.







rememebr that no music is new! unless is music concrete or something really wierd that u never heard before. rock music... pss, comes from blues... blues, from slaves, slaves from africa... yes. all the music we love comes from africa. it began in africa.

i bet if u finish producing that song and i listen to it 1st, ill like it more than the one u think u are ripping off. happens all the time.
#22
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #22
Lives for gear
 
woomanmoomin's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,020

woomanmoomin is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper View Post
Instead of trashing the song, you could give credit, like the Stones did k.d. lang.
I was happy when the Stones (or their label?) kicked up a fuss about the song 'Bittersweet Symphony' by The Verve, insisting that they (the Stones) got the credit for the music. Any other result would've been ridiculous IMO.
#23
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Jose Mrochek's Avatar
 
Joined: Apr 2004
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 3,827

Send a message via Yahoo to Jose Mrochek
Jose Mrochek is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by woomanmoomin View Post
I was happy when the Stones (or their label?) kicked up a fuss about the song 'Bittersweet Symphony' by The Verve, insisting that they (the Stones) got the credit for the music. Any other result would've been ridiculous IMO.
I heard about this when it happened, never got to hear the original stones song.. whats the name of the original ? The verve version kicks ass though.. love it.
#24
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #24
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: tx
Posts: 8,802

max cooper is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by woomanmoomin View Post
I was happy when the Stones (or their label?) kicked up a fuss about the song 'Bittersweet Symphony' by The Verve, insisting that they (the Stones) got the credit for the music. Any other result would've been ridiculous IMO.
The Verve sampled a small section of a version of "The Last Time" from an album called "Orchestral Music of the Rolling Stones".

It's not easy to hear the original Stones song in the Verve song.

But it was what it was, and the Stones got the dough.

I do believe that "Bittersweet Symphony" was a completely new song. But it probably would have been a bad precedent if the rights had stayed with the Verve.

But the melody that the Verve used from the orchestral version doesn't exist in the Stones original version. It almost seemed that whomever did the orchestral arrangement should have gotten the credit.

I read that the Verve made $1000.00 off of that song.

Andrew Loog Oldham produced the Verve song, and he produced the orchestral album as well as other Stones stuff.

In the end, though, I believe The Verve undid themselves. Somehow, the follow-up singles, "Lucky Man" and "The Drugs Don't Work" were slow to be released as singles; and the North American tour in support of "Urban Hymns" came a loooong time after "Bittersweet Symphony" was off the charts.

I think they were reluctant about the whole deal. Truly a great band. One of my favorites. Urban Hymns is a beautiful album, as are Northern Soul and Storm in Heaven.

"The Verve and The Rolling Stones : Truly Bittersweet
The now defunct British outfit The Verve sampled an orchestration on their song "Bittersweet Symphony" from The Rolling Stone's "The Last Time". Before the release of the album, The Verve negotiated a licensing agreement with The Rolling Stones to use the sample -- at least the composition rights to the sample. In 1997, The Verve's album "Urban Hymns" peaked at number 23 on the Billboard Charts. What ensued was a bitter (and not sweet) legal battle resulting in The Verve turning over 100% of the royalties to the Rolling Stones. The Rolling Stones argued that The Verve had violated the previous licensing agreement by using too much of the sample in their song. The Verve argued that The Rolling Stones got greedy when the song became successful. Herein lies the issue of moral rights of a samplist.

"The last thing I ever wanted was for my music to be used in a commercial. I'm still sick about it", The Verve's lead singer Richard Ashcroft said in a recent interview. So, that's exactly what Rolling Stones manager Allen Klein did. Capitalizing off the success of the song, Klein licensed The Verve's "Bittersweet Symphony" to Nike, who proceeded to run a multi-million dollar television campaign using The Verve's song over shots of its sneakers. Klein also used the song to hawk Vauxhall automobiles. Additionally, though the song was authored by The Rolling Stones, the Andrew Loog Oldham Orchestra performed the sampled recording and also filed suit upon the success of the song. (Herein lies a fine caveat to license both the recording and composition rights from whomever maintains them.) To add even more insult to injury, when "Bittersweet Symphony" was nominated for a Grammy, Mick Jagger and Keith Richards were named the nominees and not The Verve. What could be more "Bittersweet" than your song reaching the top of the charts and not being able to enjoy a cent of its success?

"It could've been worse," Ashcroft continued. "If we hadn't fought, 'Symphony' could've ended up on a cheeseburger ad and never have been taken seriously again." Yum. "
#25
20th March 2007
Old 20th March 2007
  #25
Lives for gear
 
woomanmoomin's Avatar
 
Joined: Jan 2007
Location: London, England
Posts: 1,020

woomanmoomin is offline
I think I saw Ashcroft working in McDonald's the other day...

I was biased in the Stones case cos I'd always thought Ashcroft was a schmuck. dfegad being reasonable
#26
21st March 2007
Old 21st March 2007
  #26
Gear addict
 
Joined: Dec 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 359

zaczac is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by woomanmoomin View Post
Try? You mean steal?
I don't know that I should admit to that on the record...

... I'm really referring to using a composition tool, as opposed to just taking someone elses melody.

One such idea (that I haven't actually used) is to play the IV chord of a song, then to play it as minor before resolving back to the tonic. I'm thinking of several Beatles songs, Creep (Radiohead), Falling Away With You (Muse), and More Than Words (...what was that band again).


...
#27
21st March 2007
Old 21st March 2007
  #27
Moderator
 
psycho_monkey's Avatar
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Location: Sydney via London
Posts: 22,435
My Recordings/Credits

Send a message via Skype™ to psycho_monkey
psycho_monkey is online now
Quote:
Originally Posted by max cooper View Post
The Verve sampled a small section of a version of "The Last Time" from an album called "Orchestral Music of the Rolling Stones".
As i understand it, for re-releases of this song, the verve had the sample re-created to avoid having to give away all the money. Which suggests it's as much a mechanicals (sampling and releasing music without permission) as it was publishing.
#28
21st March 2007
Old 21st March 2007
  #28
Lives for gear
 
max cooper's Avatar
 
Joined: Aug 2004
Location: tx
Posts: 8,802

max cooper is offline
Quote:
Originally Posted by psycho_monkey View Post
As i understand it, for re-releases of this song, the verve had the sample re-created to avoid having to give away all the money. Which suggests it's as much a mechanicals (sampling and releasing music without permission) as it was publishing.
There's a story of a producer hiring a bunch of guys to recreate a sample for this reason.

He booked the studio + musicians, tracked the sample, got it very, very close.

But it just wasn't the same.

So they used the original, but they said they used the recreation. Since all the billing, etc. existed, who could prove which they used?

True? I dunno, but I always wondered if it was about Bittersweet Symphony.
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+ 
 
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
DSMrehearsal / So much gear, so little time!
8
seka / Work In Progress / Advice Requested / Show & Tell / Artist Showcase / Mix-Offs
9
autodidactic / Work In Progress / Advice Requested / Show & Tell / Artist Showcase / Mix-Offs
2
BevvyB / So much gear, so little time!
16

Forum Jump

SEO by vBSEO ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.