REAL "ARTISTIC" vs. FAKE "COMMERCIAL" MUSIC

[SaxJordan]

To me, music is a path. I believe a lot of the folks making fake commercial music aren't as far along that path as say, someone like Miles Davis. In many cases those folks are walking a different path entirely. There is a discernible difference and it's not merely a matter of taste. There are genres of music I might not personally care for, but I can appreciate the high level of artistry embodied by artists in that genre who have walked a long distance along their respective paths. The 15 year old girl from Montana might not be able to tell the difference but #1) will she still be listening to that same flavor-of-the-month pop song she just plunked on her iPod 30 years from now (or even next month)? #2) she really isn't all that into music.

There is good and bad commercial music for sure, whether or not people are getting paid has nothing to do with the quality of music. Music stands on its own. A lot of people like and listen to bad music, and that's totally cool. Again, those people really aren't all that into music. The people who REALLY like music know what's up. At times it can be frustrating because we're having this great personal experience and wish we could share it because everyone else is missing out (it's like, how many of you listening to your sound just dancing in the air in front of your Focal monitors wish that everyone in the world could be hearing that instead of their ipods). I think maturity is realizing that it's all good, not everyone needs to be getting the same experiences out of life, not everyone would rather be castrated than lose their hearing. Hopefully people who listen to bad music have other sources of joy in their lives.

[shadewind]

I can't believe how close minded people on Gearslutz are. This is really the homeland of the elitists.

First off, "fake", "real", "authentic" and so on are NOT TERMS THAT APPLY TO MUSIC. There is no such thing as fake music and there never has been and never will be. Let's take an example. Me, I'm drummer and a songwriter and when I feel like it, I might write a song and record it. I'm not a guitarist so my playing might not be the best so I have to do lots of takes to get it right plus some editing. But I don't stop until it sounds like I want it. Same with vocals. My singing technique is not that great even though I try to make it better. Some notes are very hard for me to hit right as my voice trembles so I use Auto-tune or Melodyne to make it right. I play MIDI piano and of course, I'm not a pianist but I try my best but indeed, it requires a lot of editing to get it right. But I wrote the song and the lyrics and I put my soul into it. Now, do you still want to call it fake?

The only "true" real music in that case would a cappella.

There is no objective definition of what music is good or bad. I repeat, THERE IS NO GOOD OR BAD MUSIC. If you say that, you're wrong. There is only music and that I like and you don't like and music that I hate but you like. Nobody can decide what music is art, people can only decide that for themselves. If I say my music is art, it indeed is art to me (though I often think that stuff I do sucks). If I think that Avril Lavigne is art, then to me, it IS art.

And there is no reason to differentiate between hooks and sould and whatever. There is no reason to believe that a hook has no soul. A hook can be anything. Soul can be anything.

Stop judging people and just keep making/composing/manufacturing/producing, or whatvere you would like to call it, music.

[lakeshorephatty]

Shadewind I doubt your case is in debate. It sounds like you are making the music because you enjoy it or are compelled to.

I think if you want to get down to the root of what is being said here, its this:

If the driver behind the creation of a musical performance is more or less solely profit, or popularity, then that music will probably not convey any lasting impact.

That said, we all need down time. For instance do I want to watch a brilliantly made movie or a cheezy action flick?

Both have their place, and even the cheezy movie may not have been motivated by money alone.

However, i find it all too easy whether it be film or music or art to see to the core of the creator's motive, and do not get any joy out of the experience if i feel it was created without true passion or inspiration.

Russell

[shadewind]

You're probably right, I got a little worked up
My main case was that there is no such thing as fake music.

True passion on the other hand does not always make music better. Sometimes, people write the best songs when they were simply bored and had nothing better to do. On the other hand, passion often makes good music.

Some people, though, seems to argue that catchy pop music is worse than other genres but I would disagree... some people simply like that kind of music.

(I want to apologize for my bad english today, my brain feels filled with glue

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by quietdrive

She may feel connected to the new Avril Lavigne single, which you are disgusted by. But that doesnt mean either one of you is right. You just like different kinds of music.

sounds like bullshit to me!

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by woomanmoomin

Here is a classic clip from British TV of the rock 'n' roll years (YouTube - Leonard Cohen). I would suggest that you watch it and listen to it closely.

god, that was awful. i couldn't get by his voice. sorry, but the man just flat-out cannot sing!

[shadewind]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

sounds like bullshit to me!

Yeah! Bullshit! We all know you like Avril Lavigne as well

[lakeshorephatty]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

god, that was awful. i couldn't get by his voice. sorry, but the man just flat-out cannot sing!

You're right in a technical way.

I don't know much about him but I enjoyed that performance, despite the technical aspect.

Everyone's tastes are different, to me that has the honesty that helps me ignore the technical limitations and enjoy the message.

If he wasn't a good lyricist, there would be nothing to grab onto.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by shadewind

THERE IS NO GOOD OR BAD MUSIC. If you say that, you're wrong.

give me a break!

[warmer]

Quietdrive, we must be almost exact opposites! I haven't agreed with you on any post of any thread!!!

Some music has real emotion, no cliched lyrics that you hear over and over in a lot of commercial music. This music has to be made it can't be faked (?) A lot of commercial music is filler, to be consumed, replaceable and disposable, there is a place for it but you can place the same gravitas as someone who is honestly exposing their heart.

See this link



YouTube - Once,2006 Glen Hansard - Say it to me now ?
I'm off to make some music it will probably never be commercially successful so it will be crap obviously

[billgennaro]

ok, now that i've criticized others posts its time for me to say something useless.

take sheryl crow for instance. i saw her, in an interview, say that if you're a pop songwriter and you use more than 3-4 chords in a song, you're basically making a mistake. now that is not an attempt at artistic endeavor. not that she sounds bad. she's just not interested in making music that will be played 50 years from now. she's interested in making a living.

and, after listening intently for over 40 years to songs, i feel that i can tell when someone is trying to be "real" or just "pumping out a tune". hell, i've pumped out my share!! i admit that they weren't good. just because some of my friends liked them doesn't make them good.

so can we stop saying that its all in the ears of the listener. some music is flat out good and some music is flat out bad. everyone has an opinion but that doesn't mean they are right! some people think that adolph hitler was a good man. its their opinion but they are wrong.

i told you that what i was about to write would be useless!

[shadewind]

There is no correlation in music's successfullness and it's quality. But then again, it's entirely subjective.

[shadewind]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

ok, now that i've criticized others posts its time for me to say something useless.

take sheryl crow for instance. i saw her, in an interview, say that if you're a pop songwriter and you use more than 3-4 chords in a song, you're basically making a mistake. now that is not an attempt at artistic endeavor. not that she sounds bad. she's just not interested in making music that will be played 50 years from now. she's interested in making a living.

and, after listening intently for over 40 years to songs, i feel that i can tell when someone is trying to be "real" or just "pumping out a tune". hell, i've pumped out my share!! i admit that they weren't good. just because some of my friends liked them doesn't make them good.

so can we stop saying that its all in the ears of the listener. some music is flat out good and some music is flat out bad. everyone has an opinion but that doesn't mean they are right! some people think that adolph hitler was a good man. its their opinion but they are wrong.

i told you that what i was about to write would be useless!

If you write a song that you put your soul into and I think it sucks, does that mean I'm wrong as well? If i like one of your "pumped out" songs better, does what mean I'm wrong?

Sorry pal, you are not to decide...

[1/2 Normal]

Well the Wiggles have enjoyed more commercial success than I have, but that doesn't make me wanna change the music I play to fit a corporate think tank idea of what the masses will like.

So with your logic I must want to attack them for their success?
I could care less.

great music to me is music that gives you a tiny window into another persons soul just for that moment where you think you actually connect with that artist. If that artist happens to be Avril, Wiggles, or what ever the hell it may be then go buy the album DIG IT, LOVE IT. But that does not give you license to call music that is not commercially a hit CRAP either. Its a damn numbers game in this industry but you know that as well as the next. If you keep pounding into someones head that something is great because the its a number one hit then they will think that they must like it because everyone else in the world does. More play means more sales. How many Wiggles fans will be fanatics when they are 25 like they were when they were 5? Same goes for Avril. How many fans will hang around as they grow spiritually and mentally?

Music is and will be enjoyed by many for many reasons don't diminish artists that do not get the regular air play or big adds in the hip social magazines.

TY
Rob

[narcoman]

No such thing as "fake " music. There is such a thing as a principle that rots my soul though!

Doing music specifically to make money whilst not believing in it yourself is not good. It doesnt matter if I dont like it , as long as the artist doing the music believes in it, then it's alright by me.

Art can be commercially succesful - but commercially successful doesnt make art.

[dan p]

There is the entertainment biz and there is real music and some of it falls in between.If your old school you probably like it real as opposed to fabricated enter tainted ment.Real music is not bein promoted enuff in the usa so people dont know cause its not nurtured.


Dan P

[shadewind]

Originally Posted by narcoman

No such thing as "fake " music. There is such a thing as a principle that rots my soul though!

Doing music specifically to make money whilst not believing in it yourself is not good. It doesnt matter if I dont like it , as long as the artist doing the music believes in it, then it's alright by me.

Art can be commercially succesful - but commercially successful doesnt make art.

There we go, sane, normal, non-elitist beliefs. I hear you on this one, one should not make music simply for money. Though if I like catchy pop music AND progressive jazz equally, I might opt for making catchy pop music as I could make more money out of it.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by shadewind

There we go, sane, normal, non-elitist beliefs.

for me to say that there "is" such a thing as bad music isn't elitist. its just a plain and simple truth. there has been music made that is equally as bad as "the elephant man" is ugly. can you folks honestly stand there and tell me that you believe that there is no such thing as bad music?

i understand the gray area between good and bad music and the subjectivity that is involved. of course 99% of music is subjective. this is not arguable and is not the argument i'm making. but to say that "there is no such thing as bad music" is absurd. if i put out a song that is just an open "e" string plucked over and over again for three minutes, and i call it "a song", you guys are gonna stand there and tell me that its subjective whether or not its good or bad? all i'm saying is that bad music exists. if you deny that then i don't know what else to say.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by shadewind

If you write a song that you put your soul into and I think it sucks, does that mean I'm wrong as well? If i like one of your "pumped out" songs better, does what mean I'm wrong?

Sorry pal, you are not to decide...

of course i'm not to decide. i was trying to make an analogy. it probably wasn't a good one. sorry about that!

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by 1/2 Normal

Well the Wiggles have enjoyed more commercial success than I have, but that doesn't make me wanna change the music I play to fit a corporate think tank idea of what the masses will like.

So with your logic I must want to attack them for their success?
I could care less.

i'm sorry, did i say "attack" folks whose music you don't like? all i said was "bad music exists". plain and simple.

[narcoman]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

for me to say that there "is" such a thing as bad music isn't elitist. its just a plain and simple truth. there has been music made that is equally as bad as "the elephant man" is ugly. can you folks honestly stand there and tell me that you believe that there is no such thing as bad music?

i understand the gray area between good and bad music and the subjectivity that is involved. of course 99% of music is subjective. this is not arguable and is not the argument i'm making. but to say that "there is no such thing as bad music" is absurd. if i put out a song that is just an open "e" string plucked over and over again for three minutes, and i call it "a song", you guys are gonna stand there and tell me that its subjective whether or not its good or bad? all i'm saying is that bad music exists. if you deny that then i don't know what else to say.

100% subjective - even given the example you mention.