Final Signal before mastering

[Pan Papason]

I am producing Trance music for the dance culture and finalizing my album as we speak.. All my tracks have been recorded previously in my old studio where i had my Ghost 32 mixer and leads were recorded from andromeda,voyager,virus and nord1 thru the mixer and the auxilaries(lexicon/eventide)to my POWERBOOK&motu828mk1.. now that i have a project studio at home where i finalize and mix in logic with the motu i have mixed all the tracks and they are all audio and was wondering... IF I PASS ALL MY FINAL MIXES THRU THE STEREO CHANNEL OF THE SOUNDCRAFT WITHOUT CHANGE ANYTHING BUT FLAT AND RECORD THEM BACK TO A PC, WOULD IT HELP AND GIVE AN ANALOGUE WARM SOUND TO MY TRACKS.. OR IT WILL MAKE IT WORST CAUSE I DON'T HAVE THE SUPER CONVERTORS?

and my second question: if it is cool to record them thru the ghost ..would it benefit them by putting a tiny bit of the
"just stereo" preset on the eclipse(eventide)?

i am asking all the above since my experience is limited and i have the 2 bits of equipment that i love(ghost&eclipse) and would like to add their signal to my final mixes before the master engineer... ofcourse only if it helps...

cheers

in case u r curious what music i make or if u wanna do some constructive slagging off.. u can check: http://www.myspace.com/panpapason
u can use bad words if it is for constructive motives

[Darius van H]

You gotta ask yourself, does the Ghost have something special that'll improve the sound of your mixes? - something that could justify the loss of definition that'll result from a trip thru analog-land?

Why not give it a try and see if it makes you smile?

you said: and my second question: if it is cool to record them thru the ghost ..would it benefit them by putting a tiny bit of the
"just stereo" preset on the eclipse(eventide)?

Do you like the way it sounds?..if so, go for it!

[mrlouie]

get a mix you are really happy with ..

print it all three ways ... computer only .. ghost .. ghost w/ eventide thing..

give someone else the 3 mixed files and have them make a cd for you without telling you the order ... take a listen .. see which one you think sounds best ... then find out which version it was.

still not sure ... pay to have one song mastered with the 3 versions .. then you will hear how it will sound finished all 3 ways .

honestly if you have great songs and a good mix thats way more important to concentrate on

[starseed]

You're that guy who was really rude to me in Goa. You had some kind of God complex. It was 1995/96. Nice to see that you do "bow down" occasionally.

Good luck with it.

[Lowas]

1995/96

[Pan Papason]

Originally Posted by starseed

You're that guy who was really rude to me in Goa. You had some kind of God complex. It was 1995/96. Nice to see that you do "bow down" occasionally.

Good luck with it.

don't remember it but if this is jeremy then u have misunderstood me i was just 21 then and organizing the seabreeze every weekend... thats all... sorry if i was rude... just young and excited... ehe
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guys thanx for the advise i am going to test the 3 options i have mentioned above.. i was just thinking if there is a kind of rule or sth..

cheers

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by mrlouie

get a mix you are really happy with ..

print it all three ways ... computer only .. ghost .. ghost w/ eventide thing..

give someone else the 3 mixed files and have them make a cd for you without telling you the order ... take a listen .. see which one you think sounds best ... then find out which version it was.

still not sure ... pay to have one song mastered with the 3 versions .. then you will hear how it will sound finished all 3 ways .

honestly if you have great songs and a good mix thats way more important to concentrate on

It's a tradeoff of the transparency of an all-digital (ITB) mix versus the character added by the additional analog send/return path. Some instruments benefit, not all may benefit.

Anyway, the test is an Excellent idea. I wouldn't necessarily do it to CD, I think adding the variable of the dithering is going to confuse the issue. I suggest evaluating it at 24 bit resolution. If you don't know which path you are listening to it makes for a more honest evaluation. I've been through that and you'd be surprised how much more SUBTLE the difference really is. Also do some lineup tones so you know the console is at unity gain and you're not fooled by a level difference when you do the comparison. I have a client who does excellent mixes and who uses a Ghost for its character. Sometimes it might be the losses through the analog console provide the slight softening that some people may be looking for. Or there may be character as well. I'm not convinced the Ghost has the world's greatest character, but there is some subtle distortion in there that seems to enhance definition and separation as well as the change due to going Apogee back to Apogee path.

[heathen]

If you know motu well I think it is a bit of a trade off as they sound quite grainy especially in the low end freq's (i owned an 828 mk2 for a while) , the Apogee's are far superior converters, but yeah if the trade off works well go for it.

[Pan Papason]

Originally Posted by bob katz

It's a tradeoff of the transparency of an all-digital (ITB) mix versus the character added by the additional analog send/return path. Some instruments benefit, not all may benefit.

Anyway, the test is an Excellent idea. I wouldn't necessarily do it to CD, I think adding the variable of the dithering is going to confuse the issue. I suggest evaluating it at 24 bit resolution. If you don't know which path you are listening to it makes for a more honest evaluation. I've been through that and you'd be surprised how much more SUBTLE the difference really is. Also do some lineup tones so you know the console is at unity gain and you're not fooled by a level difference when you do the comparison. I have a client who does excellent mixes and who uses a Ghost for its character. Sometimes it might be the losses through the analog console provide the slight softening that some people may be looking for. Or there may be character as well. I'm not convinced the Ghost has the world's greatest character, but there is some subtle distortion in there that seems to enhance definition and separation as well as the change due to going Apogee back to Apogee path.

Thanks a lot Bob and please allow me to thank u for writing "Mastering audio"l have been reading the book for the last 2 years and will be for a few more i think ....it is a brilliant light into the darkness.. Now it is my last question l promise...!!
since bob has mentioned it and i was going to start a new thread ..maybe i can ask it here:::

I have 2 options of dithering: Logic 6 Pro or Waves L2
is there an obvious supremacy of either of these 2..
.... or whatever sounds good again??...

thanx

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Pan Papason

I have 2 options of dithering: Logic 6 Pro or Waves L2
is there an obvious supremacy of either of these 2..
.... or whatever sounds good again??...

Whatever sounds good ...


Let your ME have all 3 versions, send a ref of what you're going for, and let him/her do the rest.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by Pan Papason

I have 2 options of dithering: Logic 6 Pro or Waves L2
is there an obvious supremacy of either of these 2..
.... or whatever sounds good again??...

thanx

Don't dither unless you have to. Send the highest resolution files you can to the ME and let the ME dither it.

[Pan Papason]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Don't dither unless you have to. Send the highest resolution files you can to the ME and let the ME dither it.

well.. i need to, just to dj the tunes around before they get mastered or released..

but i see what r u saying,,, thanx

[Timecode]

Depending on who you get to master it you could tell the m.e that you are looking for an 'analogue' sound - a lot of trance mastering seems to happen itb these days but there are definately guys out there who will have other (possibly better) ways of getting you some analogue phatness on the final mix. I just did a progressive trance disc and ran the whole thing through a Thermionic Culture Vulture, and was very pleased with the results.

The test is also an excellent idea, just make sure you have them level matched.

Good luck with the album, cheers
Matthew

[Pan Papason]

Originally Posted by Timecode

Depending on who you get to master it you could tell the m.e that you are looking for an 'analogue' sound - a lot of trance mastering seems to happen itb these days but there are definately guys out there who will have other (possibly better) ways of getting you some analogue phatness on the final mix. I just did a progressive trance disc and ran the whole thing through a Thermionic Culture Vulture, and was very pleased with the results.

The test is also an excellent idea, just make sure you have them level matched.

Good luck with the album, cheers
Matthew

cheers Matthew i am looking for the analogue warmth thing... but i see..... if the test proves unsuccesful in the altrnative techniques... then i can search what i am looking for with my ME...

many thanx to everybody... u guys are better than my label...
thanx for the support!!

[cosmos]

Originally Posted by Pan Papason

cheers Matthew i am looking for the analogue warmth thing... but i see..... if the test proves unsuccesful in the altrnative techniques... then i can search what i am looking for with my ME...

many thanx to everybody... u guys are better than my label...
thanx for the support!!

Im on the same path, producing PsyTrance just like you and i was looking for the same analog warmth in my tracks, so i pushed the limits alittle ( pocket wise ), got a better preamps & DI's ( pacifica, API's, 1073 DPA ) to run my synth's thru, everything sounds bigger. i am mixing thru Ghost and found that the sound does get better on a "console" then just ITB mixing, i ditched all plugins and moved hardware only, better converters, effects etc ...

do you use DI's ? ive found that the REDDI gives 10 times the power to my Q+ then just Q to Cubase, plus outboard EQ & compressors ... the signals goes much fatter on the way in and in mixing process, a HUGE diffrence.

try some DI's on your synths, i think thats what your looking for as "analog warmth", maybe some tubes ...

good luck, i like your music ...

do you get to see GMS there in ibisa ?

[cosmos]

PS - the culture vulture is a MUST in trance making, ita AMAZING !

[Timecode]

Culture Vulture . The Phoenix is amazing as well, just not so much with the trance stuff.

Cheers
Matthew

[Pan Papason]

Originally Posted by cosmos

Im on the same path, producing PsyTrance just like you and i was looking for the same analog warmth in my tracks, so i pushed the limits alittle ( pocket wise ), got a better preamps & DI's ( pacifica, API's, 1073 DPA ) to run my synth's thru, everything sounds bigger. i am mixing thru Ghost and found that the sound does get better on a "console" then just ITB mixing, i ditched all plugins and moved hardware only, better converters, effects etc ...

do you use DI's ? ive found that the REDDI gives 10 times the power to my Q+ then just Q to Cubase, plus outboard EQ & compressors ... the signals goes much fatter on the way in and in mixing process, a HUGE diffrence.

try some DI's on your synths, i think thats what your looking for as "analog warmth", maybe some tubes ...

good luck, i like your music ...

do you get to see GMS there in ibisa ?

cheers mate i get what u saying... Gms are around the corner from here.. e