Restoring Low End Punch To Kick Smothered In Bass Line

[david1103]

I keep on running into this problem in the not so great mixes I have to work on.

The mixes I am dealing with are mainly small home studio, not high end. I understand these artists often can't hear below 55 hz in the worst cases.

In the case of 4/4 dance, often the kick is playing away... give it a bit more bass at 40/50 and we are talking something that could rock the dance floor... in come the friggin bass line and steps all over the kick. Every bar one of the 4/4 kicks just has its low end punch stolen by the bass coming on the exact freq it is using. Turns into mush :(

In some cases I can add an attack of about 70ms and quick release using a multiband on the bass. The often creates a nice pump and helps a lot. In bad cases it is buggered and won't work.

Please don't say request a remix. Also, I am using Cubase SX2 with various plugins.

Can people tell me their possible solutions, esp settings within Waves software that might help in the future? C4 linear is being used for this task at the moment, though I am open to suggestions of change.

All suggestions very welcome... hope I have made myself clear... just finished the last job and quite excited and dancing around a bit

[lucey]

remix ... automated eq per bar ... playing with sharp peaks and dips using digital eq ... comp/lim in conbo with same

there's no changing some parts of a mix ... or physics, ultimately.

[scraggs]

Originally Posted by david1103

Please don't say request a remix.

Originally Posted by lucey

remix

*sighs*

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by david1103

Please don't say request a remix.

Originally Posted by lucey

remix

*agrees*

[jkamata]

why dont you requst the mix in stems before hand ie..bass, drums, key and vocals..for
future masterings.. i mean i as a cusomer would be happy to do so if i was convinced it would give fatter and tighter sound + it isnt such a
difficult task from the customers view point considering the clear advantages..

[vls]

Hi!

If real sidechaining of the bass doesn't fit in the style, just duck the lowend with the kick as trigger (lowpass @ 110hz on ch1, hipass @110hz on ch2, ch1 gets sidechain compressed)

Volker

[carlsaff]

Transient Designer type units (or plugs) can sometimes help when all else fails.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by scraggs

*sighs*

A remix is the best and probably only solution ... so it had to be said.

There's no free lunch.

[david1103]

Cheers guys...

The stem idea is good, but I would call that more like a remix and have to charge more Depends on if they want to pay up.

I am unsure how I would do the side chain trick mentioned above in cubase sx.

My first idea was to somehow get the kick to trigger an automated eq that would do a narrow boost on the kick drum freq on each strike... I have heard of some software called drumagog, maybe that would do it using 2 copies of the track in cubase?

I don't know of a transient designer that would only work on low freq in a mix? I have heard of Voxengo LFPunch but don't know about it?

Could get the guy to send the midi for the kick drum is another idea. Possible problem is the midi timing in some sequencers may be different. If I create another kick drum track it may phase if not sample accurate!

All these ideas... there must be a simple solution with VST plugins!

[carlsaff]

Originally Posted by david1103

I don't know of a transient designer that would only work on low freq in a mix? I have heard of Voxengo LFPunch but don't know about it?

Voxengo Transmodder is tuneable to very specific frequencies. I would imagine many other such plugins are, as well.

It's a "there's no other solution" fix, tho. Remix or stems would definitely be preferable. But of course you're right that those aren't always options.

[Paul Gold]

I think you are doing the right thing with the multiband. That's what I would do. I would probably try a full band compressor before it. A limiter set to just knock back the kick a db or two before it hits the multiband will help.

Carving out a little space with EQ might work but it depends on the track.

Edit: oops. I misunderstood. You need to get rid of the bass. That sure is harder. The multiband is still your best friend. Sometimes mushing everything together and then carving out space on the other side works. But you could ruin the kick too. Try a really slow attack to let the kick throgh with a medium long release to tame the bass.

[jkamata]

Originally Posted by david1103

Cheers guys...

The stem idea is good, but I would call that more like a remix and have to charge more Depends on if they want to pay up.

well consider what would be the most time saving for you..strange cuz here in Denmark
m.e´s usually want stems and ad no xtra charge for it..as I see it both you and the
customer benefits ie. you have better control, save time and client gets a better mstr..

or else cut everything below 1k and tempo match a really nasty distorted 909 kick sample 4x4 style all over the place and spice it with that
Screamin Jay Hawkins sample sayin "YEEARHhh..."

[amenbrother]

A laymans thoughts and idéas.

Hopfully the kick, kicks thru a bit.Transient designer,
multiband-Expander type of tool
Might be able to dig the kick out.
Also, Check out where the presens of kick is and add eq with m/s. Kick should be in mono and the other stuff panned nicely around it.


Cheers

[Darius van H]

You could try boosting the required frequencies manually every time the kick hits with an analog eq - with a quick flick of the fingers / wrist

- you'll prolly get better results with an un-detented eq (possibly just on the M?)

That'll work better then a plugin because we're (hopefully) smarter then plugins.

I've done this a few times to fatten up hiphop / RnB tracks (usually with the client not present), and it worked pretty good.

Hope that helps.......D

[qubi]

I see where you're going with the midi track of the kik, but better yet, why not (at least) just request the Kik by itself as a stem. now if they can give you the rest of the mix WITHOUT the kik then even better, cause then you can easily sidechain the mix to the kik track.

If you just have the kik and the full mix, the side chain will help, with the kik track clamping down on the mix on the 4's (while keeping the kik out of the main stereo buss). Pushed harder, it can give you the madonna "pumping" effect. Not sure that's what your going for though. Although, I'm also not sure how much definition you can gain back in the mix if the kik is really burried under the bass. The mix may pump to the kik, but you won't hear the attack of it if the bass is taking over.

Another way is to try to get rid of the attack transients on the 4's of the original mix, and send the Kick stem to the mix buss as well as to the sidechain, effectively replacing the kik in the mix, just watch out for phasing with the original kik sound.

Sorry if this was a bit confusing.. But at least it may save you some time and it wouldn't really constitue a full remix if its just 1 stem.

Good luck and let us know what happens.

[Bang]

Here is a trick that REALLY works for this. Use an expander. Use a lot of it till the thing becomes super dynamic, you should notice the transients jumping out much more. Then use eq to help out a bit more. I just did this on a song where the kick was tucked (not buried) in the mix. The master came out great.

[Timecode]

I generally find with guys doing dance music who can't hear what's going on at the bottom that I just tell them to roll the bassline off with an hpf at about 40 or 45 Hz and leave the kick alone. I know generic fixes aren't ideal but you can't expect a guy to find something in the dark, and it's very unusual to want to have your bass line working underneath the bottom of the kick, normally the other way around. Also it often seems (obviously track dependant though) that the worst interaction between kick and bass happens between about 105 Hz and 140 Hz - try sweeping around through that area and notching out a bit, that often cleans things up. Compression can obviously help as well (using the attack time to let a nice knoock come off the kick before it comes in), but if the kick isn't prominent enough the compressor doesn't have a nice clear peak to act on and so generally gets pretty messy.

I haven't used any transient modification plugs but many of the Voxengo plugins are excellent (and very resonably priced or free), so I'd suggest trying the transmodder or LF-punch, it seems like they were designed to take care of the problems you are talking about.

At the end of the day obviously a remix is ideal, but my experience is often that guys just can't hear what's going on down there in their rooms / monitoring situations, and unless you tell them exactly what to do the remix is often no improvement or worse than the original. Ideally I'd tell them something like 'bassline down 1.5 db, with hpf at 40Hz' - it's a remix but they can do it in two seconds. Or get stems, if you want to go that route.

Cheers
Matthew

[Ben F]

With electronic music, the kick and bass are everything. They must sit right in the mix before mastering, otherwise the artist is wasting their time trying to compete with eveything else out there.

As Timecode said, HPF the sub frequencies from the bass. I usually add a compressor on the bass, then another in series side chain triggered by the kick with a few dB gain reduction everytime the kick thumps. The attack/release will really make the kick and bass groove together.

Then in mastering all that's requires is broadband compression, generally with a HPF in the sidchain from 100-200Hz. Unless you use the Pheonix cause it handles bass like no other compressor.

[robot gigante]

The kick and bass relationship is so fundamental in electronic music that if it isn't working, I think a remix is the only real solution.

I don't think that brutal (and let's face it, marginally effective at best) methods in the mastering stage to try to make them work is a service to the client.

If it's buggered and won't work, then it's buggered and won't work and probably the only way to get it to work is a remix.

Furthermore, the source of the problem probably lies in the selection of sounds of the bass and kick and in the arrangement- poor sound selection and an arrangement where they fight will make even a really good mix engineer start swearing under his breath and start throwing things at the wall in frustration- the kick you can replace, there are ducking tricks such as Ben suggests, but if the sound and arrangments are not there to begin with there's only so much you can do even in the mix process.

As a mastering engineer, your choices are even more limited. Stems could help, but maybe not as much as you'd think.

That's a fact that you'll have to face- do your best with it but don't expect miracles.

[Bob Boyd]

Originally Posted by david1103

Can people tell me their possible solutions, esp settings within Waves software that might help in the future? C4 linear is being used for this task at the moment, though I am open to suggestions of change.

Waves TransX Multi. Use it all the time. Bring out the stuff you want, leave out the stuff you don't.

[rici]

if you have the exact thempo, copy/paste a short sine wave at 40hz all over the mix on the downbeat 4/4 under the kik. or use aN other 909/808 KIK. now you can use a low shelving to make the balance.
(hope i have understand what you like to do)
michael

[beatbed]

Another rather unpretty solution,
copy the Original track to another track, EQ so that only the essential part of the kick is heard, use a "bass enhance" plug (one I have used is Voxengo LF-Punch, but try which ever you can get your hands on) this will make the the Bass of the kick sound more homogeneous (less difference when the bass line trips all over the kick).
On the Original track, EQ the kick away as much as possible, and roll of the sub-low frequencies. Sum in a group track and apply your mastering from there.

Quick and dirty, but works 8 out of 10.

As the premises was: No remix!

[PhilRanger]

Sticking to your request: no acces to individual traks for remix...

Is the kick loud enough so you can "learn" it? (or have the original drummer in)

If so, there are 2 ways that may save your day

1st way:
A- Create (or ask a musician) to recreate a separate synched kick. I'll call that track "false kick". You don't want to mix that in, as it will not be in perfect timing and it will interact with the existing kick (tou'll sometimes hear 2 kicks), but...

B- Offset that kick track by -20ms or so so it plays BEFORE the original mix
C- Separate your mix in low freqs and hi freqs
D- Use the false kick track to trigger an expander on the low frequency. (Very fast attcks, fast release)
E- Remix low and hi freqs of your new mix.

Remember: don't overdo it, any fix will be apparent.

2nd way:

If it isn't enough, you can use your false kick, delay adjust each beat so it is as perfect as possible timing wise, then mix your new kick with a ducked version of your master track.

Have fun!

[onebigdrumstick]

Have you tried "ducking" the bass with the kick drum? It works best if you have a multi-band compressor with a key input. Then you can duck just the low frequencies while maintaing that smooth, more consistant sound in the high end.

[JDinBNA]

I think PhilRanger is heading in the right directions here.

The first thing that came into my mind was to fire up the old PT rig..

- toss the mix on a stereo track
- make a mono audio track
- get a kick drum sound loaded up in soundreplacer
- go thru and manually soundreplace (to the free audio track) for every kick hit
- mix in to taste

Even if the coffee's weak, less then a 10 minute task.