Mastering rooms:Floorstanding speakers and mastering desks

[bit mangler]

I was wondering about what you guys think about Mastering setups with floor standing speakers and a regular-height mastering desk with the desk so high, preventing a direct line of hearing from the drivers.Most of the times in these setups i'd imagine that the engineers will be listening to a lot of first order reflections from the desk.

IMO most of mastering engineers have the mastering desks just to give a "pro" feel to the place rather than giving importance to the accoustics.In this regard I really applaud Bob Katz's setup-totally non-conventional but best accoustic setup IMO.
That said, one of the best mastering houses(whose work I really like)
have their setups in such a way that their B&Ws are almost useless.Please
check this link to see what I am talking about (3rd picture with 801s).I suppose if you become really experienced the gear/accoustics really doesnt matter.Please share your thoughts on this

[crna59]

You're preaching to the choir here!
I am taking somewhat the same approach as some of the high-end studios. I having a custom desk made that stands only 36" high, as I will be sitting on a small couch, and is on casters so I can roll it BEHIND me or to the side. I'm having my computer monitor built into the desktop laying flush with the desktop.

Regards,
Bruce

[MASSIVE Master]

I just thought it was funny that in that photo, the engineer is wearing cans.

I hear you though - I went through some "pain" getting everything acceptable - Switched desks to a more "acoustically transparent" unit (Sterling), boosted the speakers (802's) to the point where the top woofer is shooting over and the bottom is at least in clear visual range. But I love the sound now, so I'll stick with it.

Admiteedly, I almost with I would've gone with the smaller desk...

[jayfrigo]

I think you gain more in ergonomics and improved workflow than you lose due to acoustic issues when you have a small footprint, reasonably low console. Speakers should be high enough, though if the tweeter and mid get too high, that could present more of a problem than having a woofer borderline too low. And raising the speakers and angling them down creates a new set of problems that are better avoided.

Ideally you should have a clear path from speaker to listener, but the truth is that as long as a woofer isn't significantly obstructed, that is you can see all of it, or at least nearly all of it, from behind your desk, it will likely be fine. The low frequency waves coming from the woofer will easily diffract around a small footprint console with an open bottom. Even barely obstructed tweets and mids, however, would be a disaster. Low frequency sound doesn't behave the same way as high frequency sound, and you get at least a little leeway with the bass in this respect.

Other mid/tweet problems include having them off-axis, near reflective surfaces, or having reflective surfaces in the path that send first reflections directly to the listener. The proper design of a room includes the design of a custom desk that works in the room as part of the whole system to alleviate the aforementioned problems. Remember, skipping a desk for a small rack or two and a leather couch will not eliminate any acoustic influence, just alter it. There is no free lunch.

[Hagen Daaz]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

The proper design of a room includes the design of a custom desk that works in the room as part of the whole system to alleviate the aforementioned problems.

Totally agree.
A successfully designed studio is a balance of acoustics & ergonomics.
Acoustics is not a problem today. The real challenge is to put every piece of equipment, furniture, people and noise inside the proposed room and make it useful and good sounding.

Regarding Acoustics & ergonomics, I can't imagine myself without my eq's and comps behind or besides me. I made my desk thinking of equipment distribution, perpendicular eye to pots line of sight (to read the marks) & arm length.
The shape of the desk consider the 1st reflections and the position of the desk inside the rooms also counts of course.
You cant avoid the diffraction at mid freq, but after 2 months you get used to it and you know how your room sounds.

Regarding Floor standing... I had ATC100A speakers during 5 years floor standing and then I moved the wall to soffit mount them.
The reason I originally wanted in that way was a more living room approach...
The result, most of the customers claim for more low end when attending the session, and that's not good for the psychology of the session.
Then I moved the wall, and it was like your wife becomes J Lopez from night to day without surgery. Beautiful and even low end, more detailed highs and bla bla.

Today I switched to ATC150ASL Pro and of course I soffit mounted them.
Also the living room approach doesn't help me to take the right decisions in most of the cases.
You can see the desk I'm talking about in More Room pictures...

[Bob Olhsson]

Denny Purcell came up with this great solution at Georgetown Masters:

[crna59]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

Denny Purcell came up with this great solution at Georgetown Masters:

Now THAT's what a Mastering room should look like!
I love those Pass Labs amps! Thanks Bob!

Regards,
Bruce

[Bob Olhsson]

We actually have a new smaller console that replaced the Neumann in the picture a few months ago. It holds even more gear.

[Cellotron]

Originally Posted by crna59

Now THAT's what a Mastering room should look like!

With all due respect for the great sounding work coming from Bob O. and the rest of the staff at Georgetown, for my own personal preferences (and, from what I've seen of most studios, of about 99% of other ME's too) I completely disagree.

Having to turn around, and spend time moving around out of the sweet spot, or worse yet, having to communicate instructions to a second engineer, in order to tweak a processor or make an edit (such as a splice or fade) is about the worse possible barrier I can think of to place into the work flow. To me these things should be instead be a quick and simple tasks reachable in arms length at all times from the sweet spot without stretch or strain. While, yes, listening is the primary task we do in the mastering studio, it is certainly not the only task, and the ability to enable appropriate processing and editing as quickly as possible (both for the sake of maintaining perspective by mininzing potentials for listening fatigue by having the session go longer than it necessarily needs to, and for getting the client their finished product in as timely a manner as possible) are indeed very imporant considerations when designing a mastering studio's layout.

I completely agree with Jay Frigo that a balance needs to be struck between acoustics and ergonomics - and that it is fairly easy with a little effort to come up with a solution where processor's and editors controllers can be placed near by with very minimal negative impact on the listening experience in the sweet spot.

For my own studio having the B&W802's up on Sound Anchor stands to allow the drivers to not be blocked from direct earshot at all, while still being at an appropriate height, along with a low profile single 14space angled rack with the analog processors and monitor controller directly in front of me, and a small computer cart with 2 15" LCD's, keyboard and CM Motor Mix pushed off to the left, has given me a nice compromise between the "nothing between the monitors and the engineer" and the "big ol' console with everything in front of me" approaches.

Obviously OMMV - but even a quick survey will readily show that not having processors in front of you is an approach that has been rejected in nearly every major mastering studio's layout.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[crna59]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Obviously OMMV - but even a quick survery will readily show that not having processors in front of you is an approach that has been rejected in nearly every major mastering studio's layout.

Best regards,
Steve Berson

Or you could go like 95% of the "Mastering Studios" like I've seen..... bookshelf (Genelec/Mackie) speakers on top of a meter bridge!
I respectfully enlist some of our own community on this forum and ask "How do you do it?" There are 3 that I am thinking of off the top of my head that have "Mastered" Gold/Platinum albums with this arrangement. Why the hell are we/I spending tens of thousands of dollars on just the room acoustics if the above set-up will do?
Everyone has access to the best equipment, but not everyone has the means or the ability to sink that much time and effort into a dedicated room. I believe John S. just went through a major remodel. I have read about 2 major ME's that now have thier set-up either behind them or beside them. That's what I am planning to do, sort of. I'm having a custom miniature desk on casters in front of me where I can move it out of the way for critical listening. I can hear the effects of even a coffee table or tray in front of me. Even Ethan W. explains in his video that he has a "dish towel" over a tray to ward off reflections.
Top designers get paid the big bucks because they can design rooms for Mastering/Listening. Ergonomics aside, Mastering rooms should look like high-end audiophile rooms. That's the comment that I was making... not the ergonomics. Each person has their own way of working... either in front, beside or behind. Our own Bob K. has a combination of both.

Regards,
Bruce

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by crna59

Or you could go like 95% of the "Mastering Studios" like I've seen..... bookshelf (Genelec/Mackie) speakers on top of a meter bridge!

I assume you must be referring to the project mastering types with your use of quotes, because I have seen very few mastering rooms serving the upper-mid to high-end of the market with this configuration. A few have some close fields in addition to the main speakers, but I wouldn't say Genelec or Mackie are even the majority for these secondary speakers. Most seasoned pros' rooms have free standing full range speakers, and a few have them wall mounted, but scant few use bridge top minis for main monitoring. If you have a small room and must use close fields, at least get them behind the console on stands to eliminate reflections from the console surface. This is an easy fix to a serious problem, and if someone can't even be bothered with this...

[crna59]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

I assume you must be referring to the project mastering types with your use of quotes, because I have seen very few mastering rooms serving the upper-mid to high-end of the market with this configuration....

Unfortunately Jay, there are 5 that I know of here in Seattle that serve Major record labels. These are seasoned studios that serve as one stop shopping.
I would say that there are ZERO here in the Seattle area that have purpose built dedicated rooms for Mastering.... Pretty sad....
That being said, I can think of 4 that are here on these forums that have the bookshelf speakers on the meter bridge... and they have Mastered for the likes of A&M, BMG and Capitol.
I read an article the other day that FOH people are now considered ME's, now that they have to deliver a CD of the performance they recorded. One FOH guy said all you really have to do is run it through a Finalizer...

Regards,
Bruce

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

Having to turn around, and spend time moving around out of the sweet spot, or worse yet, having to communicate instructions to a second engineer, in order to tweak a processor or make an edit (such as a splice or fade) is about the worse possible barrier I can think of to place into the work flow ...

I have to agree with Steve and Jay. In setting up my current room I have tried an approach using dyn BM15As for editing on the desk and a pair of Quested UD1s for a full range monitor positioned behind me. In addition to ergonomics there are a good set of acoustical problems to deal with. A room needs to be setup for a given position and listening environment. When setting up this way it seemed to throw things way out of whack. I've since been making modifications to replace the Argosy dual 15 that I have with a custom desk from Sterling modular for a smaller footprint. My personal preference is small non-obstructive desk and one dedicated listening environment. After all, even a couch can serve as a broadband absorber. If we take things to the extreme, one should be mastering standing up with nothing but a set of speakers. Could be difficult working that way though.

[Masterer]

Originally Posted by masteringhouse

If we take things to the extreme, one should be mastering standing up with nothing but a set of speakers. Could be difficult working that way though.

Isn't that how consumers listen to music? Standing in an empty room.

... or am I the only one that does that?

[DBarbarulo]

I asked this question to Francis Manzella, the guy who made Sterling:

In a really critical listening room like a mastering suite, you really want to try and not ruin an otherwise great environment with the technical furniture (the desk and racks)..

1. Keep them low!! especially side racks!
2. Make them in such a way that they do not ADD to the destructive first reflections!! This is hard in a recording control room with in - wall speakers, but you can do it in a mastering environment with free standing monitors and some tricked out furniture.
3. Keep you flat screens low as possible!! I always have to fight the guys about this one, but you can get a lot of diffraction around these flat panels and it will mess with your imaging.
4. Build your furniture to be as "transparent" to sound as possible. Make the rear panels out of stretched fabric, keep the units as open as possible so that at least LF sound can easily travel through it and it doesn't become a huge phase plug to the low end..

Jay is also right that most off the shelf stuff is large, solid reflective nightmares!!

At the end of the day it's the engineer/operator who has to work in the room and they have to be comfortable with the ergonomics. Yes, we would prefer to not have a large console or desk in between the speakers and the listener, but until HUD in a pair of glasses with VR control comes to Pro Audio these things will always be there.

We have had pure-ist mastering guys put all their gear off to the side (beyond the point of first reflection) and they make adjustments, then listen without anything in the way... repeat until done!! But most folks don't want to work this way!!
Cheers!

DB

[masteringhouse]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Isn't that how consumers listen to music? Standing in an empty room.

... or am I the only one that does that?

I believe that you stand alone.

[PMDUBS]

Originally Posted by crna59

I would say that there are ZERO here in the Seattle area that have purpose built dedicated rooms for Mastering.... Pretty sad....Regards,
Bruce

Bruce,

I am not standing up for my fellow Seattle based studios per se, as I have had my own fair share of disappointments with the local studio, and mastering scene. Also its easy for me to talk about the subject as I have closed my studio, at least for now...
BUT
Mastering is a business for most people, and that often involves compromises. You have intimated on this forum before that you are not financially dependant on your studio, having a sufficient 'other' income, and it is a beautiful thing that you are building what you feel to be a 'world class mastering room'. Have you, however, had substantial working history in these compromised typical rooms before, and felt your projects were hindered? It is after all the finished product that speaks for an engineers ability.

I agree with you on this issue, at least fundamentally. I think that it would be cool to see more custom multi part desks of smaller footprint. It just irks me when I hear what seem like 'it can't be done right if its not done my way' comments. BK uses somewhat affordable 2-ways (lipinski's) with subs in his room.....not sufficient? (I know, his rig is far from the 2-ways on a metering bridge, but you must admit that the main 'non purpose built rooms', even here in Seattle, rise above that low state...)

Sincerely, and with no offense intended,

Erik

[Bob Boyd]

Originally Posted by Masterer

Isn't that how consumers listen to music? Standing in an empty room.

... or am I the only one that does that?

and remember that clothes will absorb too so the only way to get a "natural" diffusion is...

nothing should stand between you and the music!

[crna59]

Originally Posted by PMDUBS

Mastering is a business for most people, and that often involves compromises. You have intimated on this forum before that you are not financially dependant on your studio, having a sufficient 'other' income, and it is a beautiful thing that you are building what you feel to be a 'world class mastering room'. Have you, however, had substantial working history in these compromised typical rooms before, and felt your projects were hindered? It is after all the finished product that speaks for an engineers ability.

I agree with you on this issue, at least Sincerely, and with no offense intended,

Erik

Hey Erik,

No offense taken!
First let me say that I AM hindered in my workflow now. Until I get these rooms finished, I am working in my loft area. I have to finish projects hoping that I've got it right, since the acoustics in the room are terrible. I have to take my projects to world-class listening rooms to see if they translate well.... as well as the car, boombox or what have you. I've taken other ME's into these world-class rooms and they are in awe of what their projects sound like. I get comments like "I could have done the project in half the time if I had the acoustics of this room!" I was smart in the fact that I bought all of my equipment so I can get a feel for what it sounds like and the ergonomic workflow.
Yes, I do have a decent paying "normal" job, but I will quit that job as soon as I can get these rooms built and can build up a sizeable clientele.
It's the ME's ears that make the difference and can rise above the deficiencies in the room. But when you have set-ups like I've seen, no wonder a lot of the music is compressed to hell.
I'm not saying my way or Bob's way is the "right" way. I just feel that if more people knew what was out there and could hear some of these world class systems, they would change their way of thinking. That's the problem with SACD/DVD-A. Most people don't know what that is. Gearslutism is not only the gear... it's the room! If you have a decent room, you can get decent sound even out of "modest" equipment!

BTW... for all you owners and would-be owners of the Tascam DV-RA1000.. there is a new version with a 60G hard drive!!

Regards,
Bruce

[PMDUBS]

Originally Posted by crna59

... it's the room! If you have a decent room, you can get decent sound even out of "modest" equipment!

Amen to that!


As an aside:
I was chatting to a local dealer of high-end audio gear and the conversation took the inevitable turn to $$$$ power cords and such. I kept my mouth shut; and anyway I am not against a little money spent on cables, but I left thinking:

What I feel you need to have to get 'good sound reproduction', in this order
1) A good recording
2) A good room, acoustically
3) Good playback equipment, well selected and installed and properly(not expensively) connected
4) Now, and only now (imo), should platforms and precious metal cables and what not even begin to factor in-if at all.

My 2cents.

Oh yeah, and best of wishes Bruce on your new rooms!

Erik

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by crna59

Unfortunately Jay, there are 5 that I know of here in Seattle that serve Major record labels.

I didn't know there were that many mastering engineers in Seattle. If they're all truly using little speakers on meter bridges in poor rooms, I guess that may explain why.

However, I don't know the guys or the set-ups, so I really have no basis on which to criticize. If they're serving a niche and have happy clients, then good for them.

I must agree that the room is certainly as important, and indeed, probably more important than the gear. You can always add gear a piece at a time as you are able. However, the first thing you need to have is a good room, because without that, the rest is just trying to play catch-up. My only qualification would be that I think a room can be done well with a console. It just requires some thought and planning.

And to Chris et al... You guys are still listening to music in rooms?! That's so last century. You need to be outside, miles from civilization, but preferably in a place without wildlife either, suspended from a geo-stationary satellite on fishing wire. That's the only way to get away from that pesky boundary interference that things like walls and the ground will plague you with. I've been working on learning levitation to eliminate the fishing wire though... At DSD frequencies, it's just too reflective!

(The truly nerdy will of course point out how the fishing wire would fail under its own weight extended all the way up to orbit, let alone hold the weight of a person and some speakers! Oops, I guess I just did...)

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Cellotron

...Having to turn around, and spend time moving around out of the sweet spot, or worse yet, having to communicate instructions to a second engineer, in order to tweak a processor or make an edit (such as a splice or fade) is about the worse possible barrier I can think of to place into the work flow.

A number of details don't show in the picture. Editing is easily accomplished facing the main monitors using a screen/keyboard/trackball that can be switched between the Sonic, the two Sadies or any additional DAW of your choice. The custom SPL router has duplicate controls on a wired remote that you can hold on your lap comparing different lash-ups right from the "chair." Separate playback controls for each computer are also provided. There's also a pair of near-fields and a duplicate computer monitor available behind the console if you prefer that for some tasks. Editing is often done simultaneously by an assistant in one of the two other rooms while the signal processing is being worked out in the main room.

The staff is also tremendous and working with them (and with Andrew) has been utterly addictive.

[jdg]

there are fine ppl here in seattle with dedicated mastering rooms.
wtf are you talking about.

RFI for example
or Erik Peel from PM Mastering who had to temporarily close his studio... makes me sad.. he was one of a kind, real mastering up here in the northwest.. there was nothing like him this side of san fransisco... LA even.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I guess it all boils down to "whatever works" If you can produce what you are being paid to do and use a pair of NS-10 or a pair of Auratone speakers and the clients are happy and you are being paid then why change.

I use a pair of ALON IVs mounted on top of granite blocks driven by a Bryston 4B and my mastering desk is completely open with two LCD monitors on it. My mastering equipment rack is to the left of the desk and is sloped for the best view of the equipment. It works well for me. Someone else could find it problematic or unlistenable or unworkable but I like the way it sounds and works.

I guess it is what you are hearing and how it translates that are the important parts of any monitoring setup. Also the acoustics are VERY important and if you have good acoustics then you are more than half way to a good monitoring setup.

There are a lot of mastering studios that I have been in that have what I would consider inadequate monitoring setups but the person who owns the studio is making money and pleasing clients so he is happy and his clients are happy. There are also studios around who offer mastering as part of the "CD package" and they do their mastering in the same control room with the same monitor speakers as they did the recording and the mix-down.

I guess the bottom line here is "what ever works"

[MattGray]

It's interesting timing this thread as I've just had a desk custom built based on the Sterling Modular concept but with a few small differences. We based it on the 'Plan D' desk but with a smaller footprint. It's 68" wide across the back, 48" wide across the front, the highest point of the rack at the back is 33" which is 2" under the bottom driver of my Dynaudios which are stand mounted 16" back from the desk. It has enough space in the middle to accomodate one 24" LCD monitor (at the moment I have a single 17" there). Under the desk it has a 14" cavity in the middle to pass low frequencies from a 12" sub. Top racks hold 12RU each side, bottom racks hold 9RU each side. Cosmetically it looks almost identical to the Sterling Modular 'Plan D' but it just has a smaller footprint.

How does it sound? Well compared to my old cheap computer desk, I have noticed an improved sense of depth in the stereo field, improved low frequency response (I need to re-cal my sub now) & the ergonomics are far better. I'll have some new photos to post soon.

Of course anything in between you & the speakers are going to compromise the direct sound in some way. I always suffer when I move or change something in the room (even if it is an improvement in some ways) as any change to my point of reference tends to throw my judgements off a little until I get used of it again, then my ears settle in to the new reference point & I'm fine & can appreciate the differences.

To a large extent knowing the sound of your speakers & room intimately & how they translate outside your room is one of the biggest factors in churning out consistent work, even if your speakers or acoustics aren't ideal. Obviously the more accurate the room & monitoring path is, the quicker & easier the decision making becomes. But I would rather trade a few early reflections for ergonomics, as a bonus it also looks more pro to the clients.

Matt

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by jdg

there are fine ppl here in seattle with dedicated mastering rooms.
wtf are you talking about.

RFI for example
or Erik Peel from PM Mastering who had to temporarily close his studio... makes me sad.. he was one of a kind, real mastering up here in the northwest.. there was nothing like him this side of san fransisco... LA even.

Barry Corliss has been running Master Works for years, and there's Mark Guenther over at Seattle Disc Mastering. Those are the two that come to mind when I think Seattle. I don't know what their rooms look like, but the guys certainly seem to be the real deal. Dave Locke of JP Masters seems like a good guy personally, but I'm not familiar with his work or his facility, so I don't know where it falls in the grand scheme of things. RFI looks like a good spot. I hadn't heard of them. But again, no pic of a room at the site, so can't comment on design. PM I could find no reference to.

As for mastering rooms attached to recording studios, often they can be the scary places mentioned earlier in the thread, with a badly converted office space, a DAW, some little speakers on a desk, and an inexperienced engineer. Other times a studio will build a real mastering room and get a good engineer, and then there's no drawback to keeping it in house.

I don't know enough about the Seattle scene to know which places were being referred to, but I don't doubt that there are some bad rooms, as in any city. There are also likely to be some professional options, and a few of the above seem like good places to start.

[crna59]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

But again, no pic of a room at the site, so can't comment on design..

You're not going to find one either! There are no dedicated purpose-built Mastering Rooms in Seattle. Yes, there are capable ME's who work with Genelecs up on a console. They have done work for major labels. This thread is about Mastering rooms/desks... which sadly.. no one here has.

Regards,
Bruce

[T.RayBullard]

a bit off topic...but Gunther Pauler is an AMAZING engineer. One of the best ive ever heard actually. never heard as much depth coming from simple singer/songwriter material as with his productions..


stockfisch records is his label, and of course pauler acoustics(the photo in the first post came from there) is his studio. brilliant work..

[PMDUBS]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

PM I could find no reference to.
.

PM is, or rather was, me. Neumann vms70 now residing in Frankfurt, rest of gear in storage. May appear again, but for now: post-meridiem RIP.

Local Seattle scene is not as trick as it could be, but its definitely misinformed to say its all mcmastering with 'Gen*lecs on a console bridge'. Sounds like a world class facility may be open soon here. Hope we get invited for a tour!

Erik

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I went to Google and found a number of studios that offer mastering here are a couple.


http://www.panicstudios.com/?m=200503

http://www.rficd.com/top_services.html

http://www.seattlediscmastering.com/

http://www.fullsoundrecording.com/ (yes there were some Genelecs on the console bridge or on stands it is hard to tell)

http://www.master-works.com/home.htm

Master Works and Seattle Disc Mastering seem to be in the mastering business full time. Not sure about the others.

Maybe Seattle is a good place for someone to set up a mastering facility.