Tom Jones played in a hip hop club revealed how bad loud mastering is for music

[Troublemaker]

It was quite funny really, went out clubbing listening to the usual Hip Hop and Rnb, on a ridiculous loud system with stupidly killer heavy bass and ear bleed high end.
The DJ said he was going to take us back to our teenage days for a bit of fun. To us young buds under 30 that meant the days of fresh prince. For a joke he played the fresh prince theme tune, which everybody loved, then he said everybody should do the Carlton dance, which meant putting on Tom Jones, I'm not unusual. WOW and double WOW the tune jumped out of the speaker, the brass sounded so lively, the vocals sounded bigger then anything else played by far and the top end o my god the top end, my ears stopped hurting for the first time in the night. (Sounded like somebody had rapped my ears in a lovely soft blanket)

Obviously the drums were nowhere near as loud as the other stuff, but to here the difference back to back on the same system was quite enlightening.

Then the tune finished, the joke was over and normal service presumed with everything sounding like it was stabbing my ears (with worse effect from there on in)

It just sounded like screech city after that.

Bob Katz and others are unbelievably right

Peace thumbsup

[T.RayBullard]

the real problem here is why were you listening to rap?

that stuff causes brain rot and impotence. dfegad

[RooF]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

the real problem here is why were you listening to rap?

that stuff causes brain rot and impotence. dfegad

That is just ignorant...

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Troublemaker

It was quite funny really, went out clubbing listening to the usual Hip Hop and Rnb, on a ridiculous loud system with stupidly killer heavy bass and ear bleed high end.

snip

Right on. Join the club! I have a Led Zepellin and a Black Sabbath from the early 80's and they KICK ASS! No one ever said these discs weren't "loud enough" back then. So the loudness race is killing music. Period.

BK

[Coyoteous]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Right on. Join the club! I have a Led Zepellin and a Black Sabbath from the early 80's and they KICK ASS! No one ever said these discs weren't "loud enough" back then. So the loudness race is killing music. Period.

BK

And how the heck did they record and master that stuff without all the modern doodads you guys use today. Those discs were probably cut analog to 1610 with conversion and processing (if any) that most of you would probably scoff at for modern CD mastering. And sure, I'm jealous that I don't have tens of thousands of dollars woth of Cranesong, TC, Weiss, etc. - and while I respect those and other companies, I think it's mainly gear lust on my part.

Bad yet applicable analogy: can you complain if you give a guy a chainsaw and he cuts down all his trees because his neighbors cut down all of theirs (I told you it was bad). I still think the best "mastering" I've ever done is a straight transfer of a good recording (of good music). I believe there are three things to blame for the loudness wars (in no particular order): CD changers, CD players in cars and L1 (no offense to Michael Gerzon RIP). Rant over.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by Coyoteous

CD changers, CD players in cars and L1 (no offense to Michael Gerzon RIP). Rant over.

Actually, I blame the invention of digital audio and the compact disc itself that allowed a 14 dB loudness increase over 25 years! Try as you might, you couldn't make the differences between the loudest and softest pop LPs be more than 3-4 dB or the needle would jump out of the groove. The desire to beat your neighbor's disc in loudness and to impress by that little 0.5 dB is so great that given an initial 20 dB of headroom it was entirely predictable it would eventually be whittled down to 0 dB. The invention of the L1 hastened and permitted the race to get to Green Day faster than otherwise, but it was not the cause, just a facilitator.

BK

[Coyoteous]

Okay, "facilitator" is better. Don't you all feel a sense of utter futility with all of this? When I'm working on something I really care about, I try to do the "goodening*" and the "loudening" as seperate steps - keep and/or give the client the hi-res "goodened" (sometimes, just for my own listening) then do the required neuter/amputation so it passes their 75 mph highway test.

*The "-en" thing came from our art department when a customer asked for some type to be "biggened." Unfortunately, it's now rampant in many variations in-house, including some not fit for print.

[hgen]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

the real problem here is why were you listening to rap?

that stuff causes brain rot and impotence. dfegad

haha!~ I love it!

[shangoe]

had kind of the same experience some day in a club when they played the stuff of today. "music" from madonna, a typical track...then followed by abba - dancing queen... suddenly everything sounds right, full fat punchy bass, nice midrange and highs, perfect. and it sounds kind of louder. after that, same limited crap again..ears hurt.

[nathanvacha]

I get that effect all the time...


I put in something that sounds good and it gives me goosebumps.


And T.Ray's rap comment was funny, but my main question is also about what you were doing there!!!!







Why were you there with no earplugs?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?tutt

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Actually, I blame the invention of digital audio and the compact disc itself that allowed a 14 dB loudness increase over 25 years! Try as you might, you couldn't make the differences between the loudest and softest pop LPs be more than 3-4 dB or the needle would jump out of the groove.

Of course LP mastering engineers were doing everything they could to cut louder, from Helium cooling to acceleration limiters to really fancy computers, the desire to be the loudest was part of how you stayed in business..................

DC

[doorknocker]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

the real problem here is why were you listening to rap?

Johnny Cash was a rapper in my book....and a GOOD one too. I'm serious.

[arf]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Of course LP mastering engineers were doing everything they could to cut louder, from Helium cooling to acceleration limiters to really fancy computers, the desire to be the loudest was part of how you stayed in business..................

DC

Yeah, but it wouldn't have been a problem in those days to get more rms level by using tape as a clipper, except that no one would go that far because it sounded bad. That part of the equation is what's missing today. It's not the same as tweaking out a cutter for more clean level, now it's abuse and disregard of the detrimental effect on the music. That's the big difference, IMO, not the tools, but the willingness to do the damage.

[UnderTow]

Insanely loud records asside, I would say that this demonstrates the incompetence of most DJs and how they slam the limiters of the club sound system. Old records that arn't as compressed/limited/clipped survive this treatment much better so it isn't as obvious.

I have a similar feeling with radio/TV and Optimod type processors. Bob Orban wrote an interesting paper about how current day mastering doesn't work well with his gear. Again, insanely loud records and mixes aside, I feel that the real problem is the Optimod style processing. Not the mastering.

Mastering engineers (and audio post engineers) have no way of knowing what is going to happen at playback and what ridiculous processing is being applied on air/TV at clubs etc. (At least not exactly). Sure you can just be more conservative with your mix but in the end, you have to do what sounds right in the studio and what pleases the clients listening in that environement. Everything that happens after that is mainly the fault of the subsequent processing.

Alistair

[Coyoteous]

It would be cool if there were some sort of reversible comp/limit process - like Dolby or DBX, but the encoded version would be the bashed/smashed "loudened" CD/Radio playback that seems to be expected these days, and the decoded version would be nice, dynamic and analog-like - probably impossible encoded into 16 bit linear PCM, but perhaps an interesting notion nonetheless.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by arf

Yeah, but it wouldn't have been a problem in those days to get more rms level by using tape as a clipper, except that no one would go that far because it sounded bad. That part of the equation is what's missing today. It's not the same as tweaking out a cutter for more clean level, now it's abuse and disregard of the detrimental effect on the music. That's the big difference, IMO, not the tools, but the willingness to do the damage.

I do think it's the digital tools mostly ... their power.

And yes, the pervasive fear that has crept in to all aspects of the biz ... even the older and sucessful artists are afraid to seem older and sucessful, so they slam it too.

When there is no leadership but fear and the technology is driving the buggy, you have a rough ride to nowhere.



"That sounds great ... now can it be louder and more dynamic", a true quote this week.

[Coyoteous]

Originally Posted by lucey

I do think it's the digital tools mostly ... their power.

And yes, the pervasive fear that has crept in to all aspects of the biz ... even the older and sucessful artists are afraid to seem older and sucessful, so they slam it too.

When there is no leadership but fear and the technology is driving the buggy, you have a rough ride to nowhere.



"That sounds great ... now can it be louder and more dynamic", a true quote this week.

- all true and some funny, if it weren't sad.

I think people often mistake 3 for 4 (below):

dynamic
dy·nam·ic
adj. also dy·nam·i·cal
1a) Of or relating to energy or to objects in motion.
1b) Of or relating to the study of dynamics.
2) Characterized by continuous change, activity, or progress: a dynamic market.
3) Marked by intensity and vigor; forceful.
4) Of or relating to variation of intensity, as in musical sound.
n.
1) An interactive system or process, especially one involving competing or conflicting forces: “the story of a malign dynamic between white prejudice and black autonomy” (Edmund S. Morgan).
2) A force, especially political, social, or psychological: the main dynamic behind the revolution.

louden
loud·en (loudn)
tr. & intr.v. loud·ened, loud·en·ing, loud·ens
To make or become louder.

(I didn't know dynamical or loudened were real words!)

[Troublemaker]

Originally Posted by T.RayBullard

the real problem here is why were you listening to rap?

that stuff causes brain rot and impotence. dfegad

Sounds like you've done your fair share of listening to know this.
Funny but Naughtytutt tutt

[Troublemaker]

Originally Posted by nathanvacha

I get that effect all the time...




And T.Ray's rap comment was funny, but my main question is also about what you were doing there!!!!







Why were you there with no earplugs?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?tutt

I think you guys have miss read me. I'm only a shade under 30. I was raised on Hip Hop and RnB. I’m sure your elders use to say the same about music you guys use to listen to.
You lot are really showing your age and starting to sound like your parents. (Oh now how sad is that)

"Earplugs" you are bloody right about that, it’s something I have been thinking about and must do when I go out. I should have learnt from my days of going to Ministry of Sound in London, This club has the most ridiculously heavy sound system I’ve ever witnessed anywhere. In the main room there are about 6 bass bins spread out, each one so big they have skimpy podium dancers on them. My ears would ring for literally 3 days after going there, no joke (I was young and didn't care then).thumbsup

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Of course LP mastering engineers were doing everything they could to cut louder...

True but the limit was/is one's ability to play the disk back without skipping. That happens long before we ever reach the point of flat-topping an audio signal.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dcollins

Of course LP mastering engineers were doing everything they could to cut louder, from Helium cooling to acceleration limiters to really fancy computers, the desire to be the loudest was part of how you stayed in business..................

DC

Right, but cutting engineer's best efforts to be loud pale compared to an L2, heavy digital and/or analog compression and clipping an A/D. I'll take a Helium-cut, pressed on virgin vinyl that's 5 dB over 5 cm/sec with the acceleration limiter on any day over a current-generation smashed CD.

[Coyoteous]

Originally Posted by Coyoteous

It would be cool if there were some sort of reversible comp/limit process - like Dolby or DBX, but the encoded version would be the bashed/smashed "loudened" CD/Radio playback that seems to be expected these days, and the decoded version would be nice, dynamic and analog-like - probably impossible encoded into 16 bit linear PCM, but perhaps an interesting notion nonetheless.

I've been thinking more about this and it probably wouldn't be that hard to do with 24bit and metadata to control a sofware (or hardware) loudening process, and that process could be dynamical - changeable based on listening conditions, background noise, etc. When you guys do SACD (if anyone here does), do you smash the DSD layer and the CD layer? Kind of moot though, as it seems SACD and DVDA pretty sickly children at this point.

[nathanvacha]

Originally Posted by Troublemaker

I think you guys have miss read me. I'm only a shade under 30. I was raised on Hip Hop and RnB. I’m sure your elders use to say the same about music you guys use to listen to.
You lot are really showing your age and starting to sound like your parents. (Oh now how sad is that)

"Earplugs" you are bloody right about that, it’s something I have been thinking about and must do when I go out. I should have learnt from my days of going to Ministry of Sound in London, This club has the most ridiculously heavy sound system I’ve ever witnessed anywhere. In the main room there are about 6 bass bins spread out, each one so big they have skimpy podium dancers on them. My ears would ring for literally 3 days after going there, no joke (I was young and didn't care then).thumbsup

I'm 22. I think you misunderstood me though... that question of you being there was the earplugs thing.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by Coyoteous

I've been thinking more about this and it probably wouldn't be that hard to do with 24bit and metadata to control a sofware (or hardware) loudening process, and that process could be dynamical - changeable based on listening conditions, background noise, etc. When you guys do SACD (if anyone here does), do you smash the DSD layer and the CD layer? Kind of moot though, as it seems SACD and DVDA pretty sickly children at this point.

Irregardless of the dynamical loudening?

Anyway.

Metadata is just a forced volume control, you're talking about putting a limiter in the consumers system and sending the parameters along with the music.

Without hyperbole, I would say that will never happen.

As far as super-high levels for SACD there was a standard for how many consecutive full-scale samples you could run, but it wasn't about sound quality it was to keep the modulator happy.

DC

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Right, but cutting engineer's best efforts to be loud pale compared to an L2, heavy digital and/or analog compression and clipping an A/D. I'll take a Helium-cut, pressed on virgin vinyl that's 5 dB over 5 cm/sec with the acceleration limiter on any day over a current-generation smashed CD.

The point is that pursuit of level is nothing new.

What's your technic for cutting loud CD's?

DC

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by dcollins

The point is that pursuit of level is nothing new.

What's your technic for cutting loud CD's?

DC

Start with a great mix with good dynamics and transients. It cuts so well that even if you choke the hell out of it to screw it up it still sounds loud.

BK

[neilwight]

i definately agree and hear this all the time.
recently i was at a hiphop night with some friends and about 2/3s through TROY by pete rock and cl smooth came on.
it blew everything away that had been on before and after it. it was thumping, clean and had a real third dimension that everything else had been missing. it really made me take note.
the track that came on afterwards sounded so thin in comparison it wasnt real.

i was pointing it out to people who were sadly only then going "oh yeah..wow"
i wish more people noticed the little things like this, it would be good for the future of music but sadly very few seem to actually listen anymore.
i remember reading a quote from a band recently, bemoaning the musical intelligence of the average listener at a gig now. they offered up that they doubted that many would notice if they all played in different keys. something i sadly think may actually be true

[Bob Olhsson]

Originally Posted by Coyoteous

It would be cool if there were some sort of reversible comp/limit process - like Dolby or DBX, but the encoded version would be the bashed/smashed "loudened" CD/Radio playback that seems to be expected these days, and the decoded version would be nice, dynamic and analog-like - probably impossible encoded into 16 bit linear PCM, but perhaps an interesting notion nonetheless.

There is, it's called HDCD.

The problem is that it doesn't offer enough control over the low level compression and the peak limiting doesn't sound as good as an L2 so the radio/meeting version is what ends up getting penalized.

A number of us still use it without employing the dynamics features because it remains among the very best sounding converters and provides what many feel is the most transparent and trouble-free form of dithering to 16 bits available.

[lucey]

Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson

A number of us still use it without employing the dynamics features because it remains among the very best sounding converters and provides what many feel is the most transparent and trouble-free form of dithering to 16 bits available.

+1 on the HDCD converters here Bob. Still the most lovely sounding conversion to my ear.

Are you using the HDCD dithers as well? I use linear dith in Samp and am happy with that.

[dcollins]

Originally Posted by bob katz

Start with a great mix with good dynamics and transients. It cuts so well that even if you choke the hell out of it to screw it up it still sounds loud.

That's for the mixer to decide.

What are your methods? Clipping the A/D, L2, digital clipping, ad distortium....

DC