Need help with panning and EQ

[jakromm]

I would say this is my weak point but everything is my weakpoint. I am recording a 9 foot grand and I am unsure how to pan the mics properly. Here is a picture of the mic layout.

[img]www.apianist.com/baldwinmics.jpg[/img]

I have an ortf in the center, and a quasi AB, they are both pointing slightly inwards. I know the ortf should be hard left and hard right, but what about the "AB"
(AB was pionted inwards because of that wall on the right, and the room is very small trying to avoid picking up reflections.)

My recording sounded to flat and not alive, so I ended up cutting the treble and boosting the bass on teh left(bass side) and doing the opposite to the right side. It seemed to help a bit, but is this method completely wrong?

I then passed the recording through altiverb since the room was garbage and I did a very close dry recording with this in mind. And here is the final sample.

www.apianist.com/sample.mp3

Here is a raw version of it with only panning done, no eq work or reverb. I can't really remember but I think I panned it 100,-100 for ortf and 66,-66 for the AB

www.apianist.com/raw.mp3

Even a link to a good giude would be helpfull, I couldn't find any on google.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jakromm

I would say this is my weak point but everything is my weakpoint. I am recording a 9 foot grand and I am unsure how to pan the mics properly. Here is a picture of the mic layout.

[img]www.apianist.com/baldwinmics.jpg[/img]

I'm sorry, Jak, I don't have time to listen, I have to run to the studio, but let me ask, what is this for? Is this for a solo piano recording? Classical? Pop? Designed to be mixed into other music?

There are many successful ways of miking a piano, and I have not had good success mixing ORTF with any spots at all. For me, simplicity is the key, to avoid phase cancellation between your mikes. If an ORTF pair does not cover the whole piano adequately, then it is the wrong choice to begin with. If you cannot get 99.99999% of the piano properly balanced with a pair, then it is not placed right or it's the wrong technique, in my experience.

BK

[jakromm]

I am a real newb, so would you mind telling me what phase canceling would sound like? How do I know if I'm having phase canceling? Would notes just kinda disapear, or parts of sound.

I figured I would post a recording I did with no editing at a cathedral, which do you think sounds better?

www.apianist.com/newnewmics.mp3 This or the "sample" in first post.

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by jakromm

I am a real newb, so would you mind telling me what phase canceling would sound like? How do I know if I'm having phase canceling? Would notes just kinda disapear, or parts of sound.

I figured I would post a recording I did with no editing at a cathedral, which do you think sounds better?

www.apianist.com/newnewmics.mp3 This or the "sample" in first post.

Dear Jak: I would love to help you by listening, but I'm on my Ibook and it's just not the place to listen to these samples. Listening to hear phase cancellation absolutely does require ear training. Perhaps Dave Moulton's Golden Ears training course (which I highly recommend) contains some good examples. Start by cupping your hands in front of your face and talk into them and listen to the coloration difference. Then "graduate" by listening to the sound quality of someone talking when they're sitting in front of a high table versus no table at all. Then move on to being able to tell in a live situation whether a trumpet player is playing too close to a wall or a surface. Listen to an announcer who's leaning too close to his copy. These are all instances of phase cancellation. Sometimes the coloration of phase cancellation can be very attractive. Kill Bill, Volume 2, near the end, when "Bill" is talking to Uma over the table. There's a delightful bass resonance to his voice which is largely being amplified by the table below him.

After that, try taking two microphones, mixed to mono, on a speaking performer, put one mike 3 feet further than the first and slowly mix in the second. Listen for the subtle to obvious changes in sound quality that occur.

Phase cancellation can occur in monitoring and cause severe problems that can mask your ability to judge phase cancellation in recordings. Or, cause you to equalize material that doesn't need eq. To see the measured difference between good and poor loudspeaker position, visit my site,

http://ftp.digido.com:8000
log in as acoustics with password acoustics

The PNGs can be viewed without downloading by clicking
on the links.
The file 7ft cons raked, not, no cons.png shows in 1/12th
octave resolution from 500 to 12 kHz in three different
colors the effect of no desk, raked desk and horizontal
desk on the frequency response. The continuous display is
too busy to see well enough, and the 1/12th octave
display is not perfect because you can't tell if the blue is
hidden by the green when it is not shown, but take my
word for it, in most bands, the blue is within a dB or less
of the green. This is a pretty remarkable demonstration of
the importance of angling a large desk to avoid first
reflections.

The file nearfield cons vs no cons.png is in continuous
resolution. This is a simulated console with loudspeaker
located right on top of the back of the console, in purple,
with the console removed in green. The comb filtering is
enormous. Anyone trying to EQ in those circumstances is
going to be doing serious harm to their recordings. I
personally do not believe you can train your brain to
compensate for this effect!

[Coyoteous]

BK,

Not to hijack the thread, but just as an aside: are you saying that any monitor obstructions render EQ judgements invalid?

Wouldn't that call to task nearly all recording and mastering rooms?

Thanks

[lucey]

Originally Posted by jakromm

I would say this is my weak point but everything is my weakpoint. I am recording a 9 foot grand and I am unsure how to pan the mics properly. Here is a picture of the mic layout.



My recording sounded to flat and not alive, so I ended up cutting the treble and boosting the bass on teh left(bass side) and doing the opposite to the right side. It seemed to help a bit, but is this method completely wrong?

"Wrong"? Dude ... there is no right way. Do you like what you did? Does it suit the mix?

For phase (a more valid place to talk right/wrong) pan the mics on the piano all to one side (L or R) and bring up each fader (each mic) one at a time ... as more mics are added, at no time should the eq or level shift in a funny way. It should just increase as each mic is added in. If the sound gets 'sideways' at any place in the fader moves, there is a phase issue ... so move the mic a little bit, and try again.

For a grand you want to hear up close I would use 2 maybe 3 mics that each have qualitites for that region. Use your ears and listen with each of your placements. Maybe get a friend to move each mic slowly around and listen for the sweet spots.

[nathanvacha]

uh...

Originally Posted by jakromm

.....the room was garbage.....

=

Originally Posted by jakromm

...My recording sounded to flat and not alive.....

(and yes that's an equal sign in there.)