why do my tracks make the radio station limiter work so hard?

[bmsander]

Can anyone explain why this song would make the limiter at a little college radio station "bounce" so hard? Commercial cds tend to fair a lot better. I can hear the limiter working sometimes on major label cds, but my song makes it obvious.

too much low end??

Any pointers really appreciated!

song

[Preben Trads]

Originally Posted by bmsander

Can anyone explain why this song would make the limiter at a little college radio station "bounce" so hard? Commercial cds tend to fair a lot better. I can hear the limiter working sometimes on major label cds, but my song makes it obvious.

too much low end??

Any pointers really appreciated!

song

First of all, I think this is the right link for your song:

http://www.headlightsmusic.com/media/Headlights-TV.mp3

Up until now, I've just been lurking here, so I should tell you this is my first post and I'm really an amateur at this, which is exactly why I'm looking forward to hearing what the pros have to say about this. I have experienced the same problem as you with some of my songs on local stations.

IMVHO I think you're right about the low end. On my system hipassing at 30, shelving at 75 and cutting at 140 gives a more balanced sound, but whether that helps your song on the radio I can't tell you, of course...

Best wishes
Preben Trads

[TREMORS]

My guess is that a commercial CD has already had limiting placed on it, therefore its a much more even level all across the frequency spectrum...it's already squashed so that the difference between softer freq vs louder ones is not so dramatic.

But, I havent listened to your track yet.

-D

[Cojo]

I think small radio stations have far to much limiting. Seems like the smaller station the bigger limiter!

/Cojo

[indie]

I was told by a "big time" mixer, that you have to roll off some low end on radio mixes.
Something about the way they limit and eq their stations.

[Cellotron]

It's been posted many times before - but essential reading on this subject, in an article by Omnia's Frank Foti and Orban's Robert Orban entitled "What Happens to My Recording When it's Played on the Radioreg is at:

http://www.omniaaudio.com/tech/mastering.htm

Best regards,
Steve Berson

[RadioMoo]

Originally Posted by Cojo

I think small radio stations have far to much limiting. Seems like the smaller station the bigger limiter!

/Cojo

Yeah, we say that some processing "sounds small market." Another problem is that a lot of college stations' processing is set up wrong or weird, sometimes by the students themselves, so a lot of the music gets crushed too much.

This is a cool tune, BTW. I'm not a professional ME, but I do record indie bands, and I work as an audio techician in radio, so FWIW, I'd tighten the bass up a little, maybe with some faster attack compression, and I'd highpass it around 80 Hz. Maybe some more "pluck" too, at around 1100 Hz. Also, the vocals at some points seem to get gobbled up by the synth and by the guitars and drums at others; I'd probably bring them up more and scoop out the synth a little.

Last but not least, I'd try the demo of the Massey L2007 Mastering Limiter. That'll help to get you close to that loud, obnoxious, relentless, distorted radio-ready sound. Mix first, then limit the finished mix.

HTH

[mcsnare]

I like the tune and the production. However I think the mix is pretty amateur sounding. A coupla things that would make the radio processors chew it up more: the low end is not that big a problem but since the overall sound of the mix is not that punchy the radio will grab the bass cause that's the main thing there. Also the cymbal crashes have too much energy relative to the rest of what's happening. Radio hates that. You can have a bright mix but the high end has to be very controlled dynamically. If you remix or master or both, try to have more punch in the drums, especially in the midrange. Also the vocal is cool on the low side, but needs mids. Basically you have too much of a smilely face eq curve with not enough mid punch. The less overall peak limiting and compression you have the better it will sound on the radio. You have to give the processors lots of clean punchy transients, but of a controlled nature. It sounds contradictory, but that's the story. Try using compression on individual elements set with slow attack times. Also d'essing is very much your friend when radio is involved. Don't peak limit the stereo buss, but if you want, try some compression with that slower attack setting. Hope this helps.
Dave McNair

[heathen]

I've had the same issues before, I said to our label boss that the last record we did should have radio masters done. Being idie and Australian " the reply was "ah she'll be right mate". so last week heard one of the track played on a local community radio stations and of course it sounded heavilly distorted. I'm not fussed really as I know the cd sounds great, it is loud, hard hip hop, so it was expected.

The next one I will be doing radio masters, I think this is where the radio edit has always come into play.

I just bought an aphex dominator 2 722 for a few hundred bucks for "radio mix monitoring" to give me a rough idea as to how the signal may perform on radio ( not sure if this is a good idea or not). I feel if the dominator is behaving with the signal im working with then the radio stations first stage should too, in theory. Better than no guideline I guess. The dominator sounds extremely similar to the distortion I heard the other day, when its pushed into "over mild" gr. I'm almost sure a domiator is present on this stations output.

This is an issue any "ME in training" will encounter. I just keep going back to the article on the Orban site as all the info is there, it just needs to be practiced more perfectly. The seasoned pro's will be reading this thread looking at the ceiling going should I reply ummmmm oh man the info is all there it's time for coffee.

Obviously for good playback results on radio quite stringent guidlines must be followed and everyone would have thier own way to achieve a pleasing result. Probably similar in essence but different ideas about gain staging and eq, I guess.

I'm experimenting, though with the info i now know I think I can acieve a good result, leave the maximising and bass boosting for the main release cd and do separate radio edits as Bob Katz is constantly saying.

I'm wondering how many of the top guys have cringed at a radio playback they did, just interested. How many times a client can't afford a radio master as well as thier cd, whether these loud cd's still sounded good or made them think , "hmmmm shit I wish I did just that radio edit for free so I don't have to cringe everytime I hear it". As it would probably only be removing the maximiser and dropping a db or 2 and re-rendering for a 5 minute pass, probably 3 1/2 mins with a radio edit.

Just my thoughts, someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

Heath

[RadioMoo]

Originally Posted by heathen

I just bought an aphex dominator 2 722 for a few hundred bucks for "radio mix monitoring" to give me a rough idea as to how the signal may perform on radio ( not sure if this is a good idea or not). I feel if the dominator is behaving with the signal im working with then the radio stations first stage should too, in theory. Better than no guideline I guess. The dominator sounds extremely similar to the distortion I heard the other day, when its pushed into "over mild" gr. I'm almost sure a domiator is present on this stations output.

This is a good idea; you'll get to witness firsthand how radio mangles your work. The Dominator used to be used a lot on the air here in the States with a Compellor in front of it, and there was a modded version called the Vigilante; they've pretty much been replaced with digital boxes. Either way, they're outrageous limiters and can be very helpful for what you're trying to do.

[heathen]

Thanks Radiomoo I thought some guide is better than none. Could you say what would be a typical output setting on the Dominator for broadcast? I have mine set to 16 which is about 2 O'clock on the dial, which I thought could be a reasonable place to start, also density(+2) and release (.9) set to about the same position, 2 O'clock usually seems like a good place to start with most gear, e. Also I have both eq controls set to zero, (12 O'clock)

I've noticed for every db louder you go above threshold the audio seems to be destroyed 10 fold. Even dropping back a db or 2 under threshold can increase clarity alot and percieved loudness a little as well, so I am really beginning to understand the way these tools can behave.

Your thoughts on settings would be appreciated, if you don't mind.

Thanks
Heath

[RadioMoo]

Originally Posted by heathen

Thanks Radiomoo I thought some guide is better than none. Could you say what would be a typical output setting on the Dominator for broadcast? I have mine set to 16 which is about 2 O'clock on the dial, which I thought could be a reasonable place to start, also density(+2) and release (.9) set to about the same position, 2 O'clock usually seems like a good place to start with most gear, e. Also I have both eq controls set to zero, (12 O'clock)

I've noticed for every db louder you go above threshold the audio seems to be destroyed 10 fold. Even dropping back a db or 2 under threshold can increase clarity alot and percieved loudness a little as well, so I am really beginning to understand the way these tools can behave.

Your thoughts on settings would be appreciated, if you don't mind.

Thanks
Heath

I can't help much on the setup, since I haven't seen one of these since the early 90s, but a good way to gauge it would be to play some mainstream stuff and adjust the Dominator 'til the music sounds like it sounds on the air.

[heathen]

Hmmm Seems logical. Cheers.

[Watersound]

Really cool song, great work!!

[david1103]

I read the article at http://www.omniaaudio.com/tech/mastering.htm which was very interesting.

When i master tracks i try to avoid too much limiting, but always end up taking a few dB's of peaks off with L2 set on auto release.

Does anyone have the experience with radio mix's to say if it is a bad idea to limit a final mix for radio even by a few Db? The article seems to say no limiting should be used on a radio mix, is this really the case in real life?

Also, any plugin setting to emulate radio limiting? I noticed the C4 has a 'too much limiting' setting... maybe this is close?

Thanks

[bob katz]

Originally Posted by david1103

I read the article at http://www.omniaaudio.com/tech/mastering.htm which was very interesting.

When i master tracks i try to avoid too much limiting, but always end up taking a few dB's of peaks off with L2 set on auto release.

Whenever you limit in mastering, ask yourself:

Am I limiting for esthetics, to soften some undesirable sound or sweeten it, or am I doing it just to make it "louder in front of the volume control?

What effect is the limiter having on the sound? Is it taking away the life from the recording or is it a "reasonable compromise"? If it takes away the life, then the recording will only sound worse on radio, even more under water when broadcast, and I should "back off" (client permitting).

Does anyone have the experience with radio mix's to say if it is a bad idea to limit a final mix for radio even by a few Db? The article seems to say no limiting should be used on a radio mix, is this really the case in real life?

The best-sounding recording on the radio that I ever made was an audiophile jazz recording made with no compression or limiting. The radio did all the processing necessary to bring this one to the masses. It sounded just as loud on the radio as its predecessor, which I think was a GRP recording.

However, in the modern sense of pop music, to say "no limiting should be used on a radio mix" is like saying "never put salt or pepper on your food, EVER." What if the recording was made "all-digital"? What if the recording was made with analog tape? The peak to average ratios on those two sources will be distinctly different and will require different treatment.

The original mix itself has to be listened to, if it's open, clear, dynamic, is about a K-12 to K-14 in level, sounds right, dynamic, but "not over-dynamic", impacting but not "over impacting", without any bad-sounding transients that "stick out like a sore thumb", then the message is right, you shouldn't apply limiting and in a perfect world, if you can get it past the suits, it may make the best radio you've heard in 30 years!

Otherwise, the message is wrong, and you SHOULD apply some limiting or compression, which is often needed on in-the-box, all-digital recordings made with real instruments mixed by anyone other than George Massenburg :-).

BK

[obostic]

Great song with a pretty bad mix before radio. Personally, I would have some one else mix it otherwise a damn good song could be overlooked!!