What's your Gain Reduction Tolerance in the final limiter?

[ONDRAY]

Depends on the limiter, but mostly the material. EDM i can hit a bit harder sometimes -2, I've even gone to -6.. Depends if there's a soft clipper on it too. But I generally try to hit -1 or nothing.

I need to try some different limiters, have been using the TC Brickwall for so long, I'm just comfy with it. The L2 I never liked, nor would I go passed -3, didn't sound right.

[Jesse Graffam]

Originally Posted by Sempoo

Loud is good.

Skilled ME can retain perception in dynamics, while meters don't show it. Listen to Muse '2nd Law' - there is both loduness and dynamics.

I've heard both masters. I assume you're talking about the CD/digital one. If you can't blind ABX between the CD and vinyl (which doesn't use the CD's pre-master) then... *cough*

Listen for yourself, and remember this is the *smallest* difference between the CD and vinyl. When the songs get louder and more dense, the CD comes out much farther behind, because a lot more of the music is getting smashed, deeper into the average levels, not just transient tops.

Also worth noting is that the CD is generating discussion within the music scene (and fans) of being a victim of the loudness war. The perception of regular everyday people. Also worth noting is that this is a loud cut too. I could do with at least 4-6 more dB for my personal tastes.

But anyway... proving a point here, even between two official masters, there's an obvious difference. In my opinion one is much more preferable to the other, even on the few seconds that shed the best light on my lesser preferred version.

What do you think now?

[samples are 5 second clips, for educational purposes, fair use rights apply, blah blah etc etc]

[cuebism]

With all the Deep House stuff for vinyl I rarely take away more than 0.5-1dB.

Loudness has been achieved
elsewhere in the chain.

[Sempoo]

First of all Jesse - you missed level matching, CD should be about 0.80dB louder, than in your matching, second the difference is tiny, really tiny - listener must focus his mind not on music but on transients, which is bs. Those guys in big mastering studios and Muse simply know better what is good.

I prefer CD verson, because it is louder, and louder is better. Peaks and ultra-clean-punchy transients are overrated. Nobody cares about them really. And do not try to talk about Death Magnetic now :P

[Lymmusic]

With waves limiters you often have a control between the threshold and output ceiling. This gsngs the two faders, so you can reduce the threshold and the output so youcan hear any distortion or negativev effects clearly, without the volume boost masking any trouble...

In the loudest section of your track ,pull them both down until you hear volume drop or distortion, then fade back up until that stops being an issue, then bring up the output ceiling to -0.3 and there you go. Loud but not affecting the tone or dynamics too much

[pacealmondo]

So who exactly is producing 95% of all commercial releases with a DR of 5 or 6 db ?!!

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by Sempoo

First of all Jesse - you missed level matching, CD should be about 0.80dB louder, than in your matching, second the difference is tiny, really tiny - listener must focus his mind not on music but on transients, which is bs. Those guys in big mastering studios and Muse simply know better what is good.

I prefer CD verson, because it is louder, and louder is better. Peaks and ultra-clean-punchy transients are overrated. Nobody cares about them really. And do not try to talk about Death Magnetic now :P

Well in my view I can only take the above text 3 ways:

A) You are trolling

B) You are a perfect example of why the music industry is at the point it is now. From the generation born without dynamics.. why would they miss them when they've never heard any?

C) You just don't care (which is perfectly fine as you are indeed entitled to your opinion)

D) ?? insert your own explanation here

Cheers!
bManic

[bmanic]

Originally Posted by pacealmondo

So who exactly is producing 95% of all commercial releases with a DR of 5 or 6 db ?!!

Loud master does NOT mean that a limiter has been hit hard. It usually means that the analogue chain was run very hot and the incoming signal was clipped a lot at the A/D stage.. then perhaps a limiter was doing only 1 to 2dB off the last possible peaks.

It's perfectly possible and also most likely the most transparent way, if you disregard distortion, to completely skip the limiter.. or only have it as a final safety before printing the track. Just run your analogue chain hot.. perhaps even add some pieces specifically for this purpose and then clip a good D/A.

Cheers!
bManic

[Mr XY]

Originally Posted by bmanic

Loud master does NOT mean that a limiter has been hit hard. It usually means that the analogue chain was run very hot and the incoming signal was clipped a lot at the A/D stage.. then perhaps a limiter was doing only 1 to 2dB off the last possible peaks.

It's perfectly possible and also most likely the most transparent way, if you disregard distortion, to completely skip the limiter.. or only have it as a final safety before printing the track. Just run your analogue chain hot.. perhaps even add some pieces specifically for this purpose and then clip a good D/A.

Cheers!
bManic

Hi bManic,

Firstly, thanks for your great presets in pro-L!

In the above quote you mention clipping the D/A a lot. How much gain do you think ME's are getting from clipping like this on the average super- loud master? I would guess no more than a dB or 2 but have no idea.

Also, how close would you say your clipping presets in pro-L are to the sound of clipping a good DA? That is really the only direct experience I have with clipping, and I've found on a lot of material, it's a much more transparent sound than more conservative settings.

[pacealmondo]

Originally Posted by bmanic

Loud master does NOT mean that a limiter has been hit hard. It usually means that the analogue chain was run very hot and the incoming signal was clipped a lot at the A/D stage.. then perhaps a limiter was doing only 1 to 2dB off the last possible peaks.

It's perfectly possible and also most likely the most transparent way, if you disregard distortion, to completely skip the limiter.. or only have it as a final safety before printing the track. Just run your analogue chain hot.. perhaps even add some pieces specifically for this purpose and then clip a good D/A.

Cheers!
bManic

With much respect, most commercially released product with a crest factor of 5db and less has been severely limited.

I just find it amusing that most on this thread are quoting 2db etc max limiting. It doesn't reflect the majority.

[sanddigger1]

Originally Posted by pacealmondo

With much respect, most commercially released product with a crest factor of 5db and less has been severely limited.

I just find it amusing that most on this thread are quoting 2db etc max limiting. It doesn't reflect the majority.

The question is about the FINAL limiter, not about the total amount of GR obtained through the whole process. My FINAL limiter barely does 1 dB of GR and is here mostly to control ISPs. Of course, with other limiter(s) and A/D clipping in the chain, the total GR can be a lot (if loudness is requested)...

[pacealmondo]

sorry misunderstood!

[Sempoo]

Originally Posted by bmanic

Well in my view I can only take the above text 3 ways:

A) You are trolling

B) You are a perfect example of why the music industry is at the point it is now. From the generation born without dynamics.. why would they miss them when they've never heard any?

C) You just don't care (which is perfectly fine as you are indeed entitled to your opinion)

D) ?? insert your own explanation here

Cheers!
bManic

Missed the point again - to recover quickly go for Masterer' posts here on GS.

D) Cheers!