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Mr.HOLMES
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18th December 2012
Old 18th December 2012
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Can you explain me this?

Hi Mastering Professionals.

Just for fun I bought 2 months ago some analog EQs nothing high end but a decent serial parametric.
I wont use it in mastering but there is something I cant explain.

Frequency wise I can get the same result with the Waves SSL G Channel.
But for some reason the same single-track with the analog EQ is more clear more open and the transients are more round and not 1:1 there....
In first I thought I turned the knobs too much different.
I checked it with pink noise if it is true - but the EQ -curves are nearly identical.

Why is the sound more open when it runs into some capacitors, resistors and ICs????
The EQ is not transformer balanced its electrical-servo-balanced!!
The effect is very clear to hear when I EQ a snare drum, lesser with a base player...

I am just wondering why this takes place and is clear audible!!

Thanks and a happy X-MAS

Mr. Holmes
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18th December 2012
Old 18th December 2012
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I discovered that ages ago. You also don't seem to need as much correction with analogue EQs as well. By that, I mean +2dB at 6KHz might be just the ticket (and I can measure this, so it's not an accuracy issue) on the analogue EQ but with a plugin, I might need +3dB. Somebody told me that phase shifts, distortion etc. just mean I can't tolerate as much correction in an analogue EQ but the phase shift is similar regardless of whether it's analogue or digital and I run my equipment with plenty headroom. I think it's just one of those things. :
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Mr.HOLMES
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19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
I discovered that ages ago. You also don't seem to need as much correction with analogue EQs as well. By that, I mean +2dB at 6KHz might be just the ticket (and I can measure this, so it's not an accuracy issue) on the analogue EQ but with a plugin, I might need +3dB. Somebody told me that phase shifts, distortion etc. just mean I can't tolerate as much correction in an analogue EQ but the phase shift is similar regardless of whether it's analogue or digital and I run my equipment with plenty headroom. I think it's just one of those things. :
True 0,5 db on the analog eq was about 2.5 db on the digital one.
You think phase shift explains the more open sound as well?
Maybe its some kind of magic we cant explain.

I was just surprised that solid state gear can change the character of a signal as well. I always thought it was designed to be transparent / clean?
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19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
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I don't think phase shift explains anything at all. Analogue gear is usually designed for transparency, yes. The thing is, nothing is totally transparent: not your digital plugins that use delays to create phase shifts that reinforce or cancel certain frequencies, that introduce quantization error and have limited time domain resolution and not the analogue EQs that add noise and dynamic distortion through their op-amps. They both color the sound, whether people want to admit it or not. Maybe the coloration of the analogue EQs are just a little more pleasing than their digital counterparts.
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19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wado1942 View Post
I don't think phase shift explains anything at all. Analogue gear is usually designed for transparency, yes. The thing is, nothing is totally transparent: not your digital plugins that use delays to create phase shifts that reinforce or cancel certain frequencies, that introduce quantization error and have limited time domain resolution and not the analogue EQs that add noise and dynamic distortion through their op-amps. They both color the sound, whether people want to admit it or not. Maybe the coloration of the analogue EQs are just a little more pleasing than their digital counterparts.
In other words:
Every process is an alteration of the original signal.
Its just the question if I like it.

So my assumption was wrong that more modern HW is super clean....

Thanks
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19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
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You are correct, though there's plenty processors out there, analogue and digital that ARE super clean, just not 100% desired correction with 0% coloration.
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19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
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I understand I pay a price for every processing (artifacts) if those are desirable is a different story. You have to live with them, or you cant process...
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19th December 2012
Old 19th December 2012
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The only 'process' that is actually transparent..... is doing nothing at all.
#9
20th December 2012
Old 20th December 2012
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If it exists it is not transparent. Transparency is not transparent. The only things that are transparent are things we have not seen or heard thus cannot qualify or characterize as transparent.
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21st December 2012
Old 21st December 2012
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Actually analog eq does NOT sound better.

Compare 2 EQ:

1 UAD SSL Channel strip the OLD version thats no longer for sale
2 GML hardware EQ

Both are super transparent and sound pleasing, which one would you choose?
Aww... there you go..

However if you got SONTEC the Holy Grail nothing can beat it on master.
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21st December 2012
Old 21st December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manman View Post
Actually analog eq does NOT sound better.
If I read right no one used the word "better" in the discussion?
We just talked about that its different- not better!!!
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22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
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True they do sound different.

I used to have Manley EQ for 2 weeks and was comparing it to UAD version.
Few noticable things :

Real Manley EQ:

1. has stronger high-end
2. Can hear tube sound a bit
3. VERY musicial
4. I v measured it with Analazyer and it turns out to be Precisely built
5. Q parameter changes gain level [not sure needs extra verification]
6. clean on midrange!

UAD manley EQ:

1. has weak high end
2. does not sound like tube at all
3. not musicial compared to hardware
4. Very clean on midrange !
#13
22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manman View Post
True they do sound different.

I used to have Manley EQ for 2 weeks and was comparing it to UAD version.
Few noticable things :

Real Manley EQ:

1. has stronger high-end
2. Can hear tube sound a bit
3. VERY musicial
4. I v measured it with Analazyer and it turns out to be Precisely built
5. Q parameter changes gain level [not sure needs extra verification]
6. clean on midrange!

UAD manley EQ:

1. has weak high end
2. does not sound like tube at all
3. not musicial compared to hardware
4. Very clean on midrange !
sounds like youre biased.
Mr.HOLMES
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22nd December 2012
Old 22nd December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manman View Post
True they do sound different.

I used to have Manley EQ for 2 weeks and was comparing it to UAD version.
Few noticable things :

Real Manley EQ:

1. has stronger high-end
2. Can hear tube sound a bit
3. VERY musicial
4. I v measured it with Analazyer and it turns out to be Precisely built
5. Q parameter changes gain level [not sure needs extra verification]
6. clean on midrange!

UAD manley EQ:

1. has weak high end
2. does not sound like tube at all
3. not musicial compared to hardware
4. Very clean on midrange !
Do not want to turn this into SW / HW thread for this reason:
Only thing that helps here is to make two files with same settings as well as to create a third file tuned by ear with a different EQ and to put it into the ABX Software.... if you cant hear a difference anymore its perception.... if you don't have the software let a friend rename the files as well let him write down on paper which one was which.

We did this ABX thing comparing the DA Quality of diffrent converters for more outs to the console and we ended up buying the Behringer ADA 8000 because there was no difference, we where also able to phase-cancel the files against a much more expensive unit.

That was the day where I learned that perception can fake what you hear, but if you do not know which file is HW or SW the differences maybe are gone.

I would not turn my back completely on plug ins.
There are a few of them they do great jobs.
#15
25th December 2012
Old 25th December 2012
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i´m not e tech, but i think that good analog eq does some saturation.... i can push a ton lows on a good passive eq before the limiter starts limiting....
#16
26th December 2012
Old 26th December 2012
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What about Sontec does it saturate? anybody knows
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26th December 2012
Old 26th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manman View Post
What about Sontec does it saturate? anybody knows
It may clip, but doesn't really saturate.


DC
#18
26th December 2012
Old 26th December 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manman View Post
What about Sontec does it saturate? anybody knows
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