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DanieleRota
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13th November 2012
Old 13th November 2012
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emotional mastering, technical documents

I'm making stage for the university, and I'm writing a document where I explain what i'm doing.
During the mastering (of songs 60/70/80) I take very care of emotional side of the song, and not only the loudness of it, but I need a technical recognized documentation where this kind of mastering is explained.
Can you help me?
I searched on AES web site, but all the documents are not free!
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I find that 0.5 dB at 20kHz on a shelf is excellent for bringing out the roundness in tears
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Excessive 2.5kHz always reminds me of the screeching delivery of the terrible untruths from my ex fiance'... Memories...
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Originally Posted by DanieleRota View Post
Yes.
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Bob Olhsson
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14th November 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanieleRota View Post
... but I need a technical recognized documentation where this kind of mastering is explained.
Can you help me?
:
No because there isn't any!
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14th November 2012
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Are college kids this uninformed?
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High pass@100hz
+4db shelf@2k
Low pass@8k

Very emotional x wife
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Boost everything >20Hz - you'll be amazed how much louder it seems without actually turning up the volume...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanieleRota View Post
I'm making stage for the university, and I'm writing a document where I explain what i'm doing.
During the mastering (of songs 60/70/80) I take very care of emotional side of the song, and not only the loudness of it, but I need a technical recognized documentation where this kind of mastering is explained.
Can you help me?
I searched on AES web site, but all the documents are not free!
Sorry but this makes NO SENSE. What does the term "making stage" have to do with mastering? This message seems like it was translated by Google translator from Sanskrit. <GRIN>

If you are asking for the emotional side of mastering ask our clients. They sometimes get very emotional.

Best of luck!

If you boost 20 Hz and 10000 Hz by 10 dB I have been told that it makes it sound commercial (at least that is what one of my clients was told by a GC salesmen when he was asking about equipment for mastering)
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You could check out Bob Katz's book Mastering Audio. He talks about song spacing where he describes a little bit about how to pace an album by manipulating the pauses between tracks, their fade style and their length. I believe he talks about how different paces could affect the listeners feeling of an album. (IE. keep them on the edge if their seat with fast fades and quick pauses. Or give them longer space to experience a somewhat emotional break between songs.)

I think the reason you won't find much written on emotional impact manipulation in mastering is because that is not what the job of a mastering engineer is perceived to be (at least by mastering engineers themselves). Hence ask the mocking and joke making.

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Originally Posted by Soundmaster Alex View Post
I find that 0.5 dB at 20kHz on a shelf is excellent for bringing out the roundness in tears
It was a while I didn't laugh so much!
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14th November 2012
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Once I almost got a little emotional when the clock approached 22 PM, my client still wasn't sure of the track order and a friend of mine who I hadn't seen in ages had just arrived at the airport and we were supposed to meet.

Other than that, I'm as calm as a Terminator, of course.
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14th November 2012
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Daniel, you need to take a moment and re-write your post in more detail. Folks are joking around with your post, but you can ignore that.....it's harmless.

You need to clearly indicate what it is your'e doing, and what it is you're seeking.

English is not your first language, so you need to take the time required to write such that, if there is an answer to your questions, somebody here can give it to you.

1) You're at University
2) You're doing an assignment
3) Are you asking about songs from the 1960's, 1970's, and 1980's?
4) Are you stating that you think songs from that era have a more emotional effect on the listener than songs do today?
5) Are you asking if the Mastering is responsible for the emotional effect songs from that era have on listeners?

Some brief comments, although we're still not clear on exactly what it is you seek.
Emotion such as you may be speaking about has little to do directly with mastering.

Mastering can offer refinements , but the "emotion" has to exist within the music.

Mastering cannot provide "emotion" in any given song, it can only highlight what the writer, singer, musicians, producer, mixer, etc put into the song to begin with.
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15th November 2012
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Wow. What a feeding frenzy.
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Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
Sorry but this makes NO SENSE. What does the term "making stage" have to do with mastering? This message seems like it was translated by Google translator from Sanskrit.
This linguistic bullying is pathetic. What's your second language mastery?

(You should read Silverking who made the point for a first-time poster in a welcoming collegial fashion).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanieleRota View Post
I'm making stage for the university, and I'm writing a document where I explain what i'm doing.
During the mastering (of songs 60/70/80) I take very care of emotional side of the song, and not only the loudness of it, but I need a technical recognized documentation where this kind of mastering is explained.
Can you help me?
I searched on AES web site, but all the documents are not free!
Hi!

Here is an http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/sep1...s/loudness.htmarticle from Sound on Sound magazine that I believe addresses some of your questions. I will keep looking.

Cheers!

Rob
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Thomas W. Bethe
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15th November 2012
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Originally Posted by PBM View Post
This linguistic bullying is pathetic. What's your second language mastery?

(You should read Silverking who made the point for a first-time poster in a welcoming collegial fashion).
I am always trying to help people on this forum. I would like to help this person but it seems that English is not his first language and his post made no sense to me. I was trying to make a joke about the Google translator and Sanskrit. Sorry if you did not perceive it that way. I changed my post so that there is a <GRIN> after the statement so maybe you will understand.

By the way I speak and read Latin - 3 years worth of High School Latin.

Here is a Joke you should appreciate.

What does the term PHD stand for?

First you get a BS and we all know what that stands for.

Then you get an MS which means more of the same

Then you get a PHD which is piled higher and deeper.

And before you get your well educated feathers in a ruffle please note this joke was told to me by my professor, Dr. Herbert D. White, (3 PHDs in Architecture, Art and Art History) while I was in college.

Pax Vobiscum
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15th November 2012
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This linguistic bullying is pathetic. What's your second language mastery?
...great point as always
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15th November 2012
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Yes, so many people mocking this - the poster brings up a very very important subject in mastering IMO.

Any mastering engineer who ignores or disregards this aspect of mastering or music for that matter is not a mastering engineer whom I would wish working on my music. Further for all those who make jokes about it and not taking it seriously - your client lists illustrate that the majority of your clients don't either which suits your level expertise so I suppose carry on as you are.

The frequencies, the transients, the harmonics etc... - all the physical facets of the electrical signal carry the emotion, the music. The mastering engineer should use their monitoring environment and manipulation tools to ensure that these facets which carry the emotion translate and achieve delivery on as many playback systems as possible. If you are not capable of feeling the emotions which the artist is expressing (akin to not understanding the language they speak) - how can you ever be capable of ensuring that what they are expressing is being translated properly.

As important as balanced frequencies, good dynamics and the right amount of loudness are to making quality masters, these characteristics are like empty meaningless words if the emotional content is disregarded or not recognised - like framing a picture blind not knowing or interpreting the content.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silverking View Post
Mastering can offer refinements , but the "emotion" has to exist within the music.

Mastering cannot provide "emotion" in any given song, it can only highlight what the writer, singer, musicians, producer, mixer, etc put into the song to begin with.
Exactly - at least you recognise that emotional content is present, valid and must be considered.

So much music is emotionless and meaningless - so it's good for makers of such music that there are so many mastering engineers around who understand enough to make this meaningless, soulless, emotionless drivel have a nice balanced frequency response and rms loudness to match the rest without distortions.
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This linguistic bullying is pathetic.
It also indicates that people didn't even bother reading the question which was about finding supporting documentation for his paper.

To the best of my knowledge, and I'm very familiar with everything in English, there simply isn't any.
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15th November 2012
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Unnecessary bullying.

If the OP wants emotion.....seriously look into investing in good tube gear all around, analog tape.

More emotion than any EQ can give ya!
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15th November 2012
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The OP wasn't in the market for equipment, be it tube or solid state.

It would be best if he was able to clarify the question himself (although I suspect he's been effectively chased away from here).
It may be somewhat safe to assume the OP was seeking supporting documentation for his premise that music was more emotionally engaging in the 60's, 70's, and 80's than it was (or is) in the 90's through to 2012.

As "emotion" is a subjective concept in terms of how it relates to music, it's hard to be clear on exactly what "emotional elements" the OP is seeking supporting documentation on........and thus hard to answer his question in anything but a generalization.

It's still somewhat safe to state to the OP that mastering highlights only what's already contained within the music, but can't create something that isn't already there to begin with.....including "emotion".
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15th November 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianBadonde View Post
The frequencies, the transients, the harmonics etc... - all the physical facets of the electrical signal carry the emotion, the music. The mastering engineer should use their monitoring environment and manipulation tools to ensure that these facets which carry the emotion translate and achieve delivery on as many playback systems as possible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianBadonde View Post
As important as balanced frequencies, good dynamics and the right amount of loudness are to making quality masters, these characteristics are like empty meaningless words if the emotional content is disregarded or not recognised - like framing a picture blind not knowing or interpreting the content.
I agree with you 100% on these points. To this I'd add that many mastering processors have the ability to kill (or at least dull) how well emotions are conveyed in music if they aren't used carefully. The conveyance of emotions cannot be automatically enhanced by running a track through a processor. Enhancement of musicality/mood/emotion is largely a manual process that takes time and attention on the part of the mastering engineer.

This could be why there are few, if any, technical papers on the subject (I still haven't finished looking, though).

DanieleRota, as nine99nine mentioned earlier, Bob Katz discusses this topic in some detail in his book "Mastering Audio - the Art and the Science". I will keep looking, though, to see if I can find a research paper somewhere, and will keep you posted.

All the best !
Rob
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I think I have found a gem . I haven't read it yet, but I think this is what you're looking for. It looks like it addresses emotional and physical responses to music, particularly changes in loudness (much of what is done/undone in Mastering is in the realm of dynamics).

It might be a paid article though... I notice you have to register to download the full copy but it might still be well worth your while.

How Does Music Arouse []Chills[]? - GREWE - 2006 - Annals of the New York Academy of Sciences - Wiley Online Library.

EDIT: here's another http://psycnet.apa.org/journals/emo/11/4/921/. Neither this or the other article are directly related to audio mastering but they do discuss the psychoacoustics behind conveying emotions in music and/or the mind/body's response to musical stimuli. From a mastering perspective, that's where the manual techniques I mentioned earlier, come into play.

Cheers
Rob
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16th November 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustMastering View Post
I think I have found a gem . I haven't read it yet, but I think this is what you're looking for. It looks like it addresses emotional and physical responses to music, particularly changes in loudness (much of what is done/undone in Mastering is in the realm of dynamics).

It might be a paid article though... I notice you have to register to download the full copy but it might still be well worth your while.
Thanks for the link. I did the log-in thing and discovered they ask $42,- for online access. The real book is about 3 times that price though.

EDIT: i found this in Google books: The Psychology of Music
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16th November 2012
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Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I am always trying to help people on this forum. I would like to help this person but it seems that English is not his first language and his post made no sense to me. I was trying to make a joke about the Google translator and Sanskrit. Sorry if you did not perceive it that way. I changed my post so that there is a <GRIN> after the statement so maybe you will understand.

By the way I speak and read Latin - 3 years worth of High School Latin.

Here is a Joke you should appreciate.

What does the term PHD stand for?

First you get a BS and we all know what that stands for.

Then you get an MS which means more of the same

Then you get a PHD which is piled higher and deeper.

And before you get your well educated feathers in a ruffle please note this joke was told to me by my professor, Dr. Herbert D. White, (3 PHDs in Architecture, Art and Art History) while I was in college.

Pax Vobiscum
Well done, you know a bit of Latin. But I bet if you posted a question in your Latin on a forum mainly for people fluent in Latin, and they were harsh about your less than perfect grasp of their language, you would be a bit annoyed.

So I say to you:

Do ut des
Caecilius est in horto
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
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It is hard to add emotion to recording that is soulless and has none.

Emotion comes from the people making the music, it takes talent, lots of alcohol, some weed, and more often than not a ride on the white horse, tempered with some candy and jelly doughnuts.

When you don't writ your own songs, your own music, and you rely on auto tune it's hard to have emotion.

Besides - emotion is subjective asking for a manual or technical document that teaches you to make something non-emotive sensational is quixotic in its inception.
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16th November 2012
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You are the second person to say that emotion is subjective. Sorry but saying emotion is subjective is like saying E=mc2 or V=IR is subjective.


Please refer to the following definitions:

e•mo•tion/i?m?SH?n/
Noun: 1. A natural instinctive state of mind deriving from one's circumstances, mood, or relationships with others.
2. Any of the particular feelings that characterize such a state of mind, such as joy, anger, love, hate, horror, etc.


mu•sic/?myo?ozik/
Noun: 1. The art or science of combining vocal or instrumental sounds (or both) to produce beauty of form, harmony, and expression of emotion.
2. The vocal or instrumental sound produced in this way.


The argument seems not to be about adding emotion (which as has already been stated is not possible) but ensuring delivery/translation/enhancement of emotion that is already in the music during the mastering process.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finetuner View Post
Thanks for the link. I did the log-in thing and discovered they ask $42,- for online access. The real book is about 3 times that price though.

EDIT: i found this in Google books: The Psychology of Music
Thanks so much, I will check that out !

Rob
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Originally Posted by Soundmaster Alex View Post
Well done, you know a bit of Latin. But I bet if you posted a question in your Latin on a forum mainly for people fluent in Latin, and they were harsh about your less than perfect grasp of their language, you would be a bit annoyed.

So I say to you:

Do ut des
Caecilius est in horto
Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori
You are correct sir. That is why I personally would not post on such a forum. If I really wanted to do so I would find someone who was fluent in Latin to check over my post before I posted it.

Since some members on this forum have postulated that the OP is from a school I would have to assume that there are other people around who could have helped him with the posting especially if it was to ask for help on an English language forum.

Communications is the name of the game we all face on a daily basis. Communications that is hard to understand or confusing in its meaning can lead to misunderstandings.

I was never trying to ridicule the OP and was making a joke about the grammar but I guess it was misunderstood. Again it is all about communications and mine did not have the desired effect.

As to the question asked by the OP. Music is what excites people if, as mastering engineers, we can help in that process I guess it is a very good thing. I have never seen any documentation specifically dealing with emotional mastering. FWIW and MTCW

Remember Lorem Ipsum!!! and all it means in the broader context.
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