Question About Analog Recording Mediums

[inlinenl]

It's good to understand the fundementals, but nothing fundemental beats the human imagination, fantasy & psychologie ... Fundemantals mean nothing really ..

that's why we love analog, thats why we love digital ...

[ctoth666]

Originally Posted by inlinenl

It's good to understand the fundementals, but nothing fundemental beats the human imagination, fantasy & psychologie ... Fundemantals mean nothing really ..

that's why we love analog, thats why we love digital ...

Haha right but is my technical understanding correct? Like in the case of the Beatles, the mp3's we have today were converted from their vinyl records right?

I'm not trying to get into the "analog vs digital debate" and rather am just getting technical. So:

-Deadmau5 vinyl vs mp3 = no technical difference
-Beatles vinyl vs mp3 = technical difference

[huejahfink]

Originally Posted by ctoth666

-Deadmau5 vinyl vs mp3 = no technical difference

You have got to be kidding?

[ctoth666]

It was an example...but I'd like some real feedback.

[huejahfink]

Going back to your initial question, there are reasons why to put a digital recording to vinyl. Some people only play vinyl for one, vinyl is more collectable, but perhaps the most relevant to your question is the fact that for many - the 'side effects' of the vinyl medium when compared to the digital source could be described as pleasing by some.

I think I understand your point though - cutting a vinyl from a digital source could be seen as a degradation too, but like inlinenl pointed out, this is a highly subjective area.

Originally Posted by ctoth666

Like in the case of the Beatles, the mp3's we have today were converted from their vinyl records right?

Depends where you got them... there probably are some illegal boots floating around that have been recorded from vinyl, I would imagine most Beatles mp3s are either from the more recent digital releases or otherwise ripped from CDs which would have been sourced from the reel to reel tapes or from high res files which were previously sourced from the tapes.
Sourcing from vinyl does happen, but I think most people would choose something else if at all possible.

[ctoth666]

Originally Posted by huejahfink

Going back to your initial question, there are reasons why to put a digital recording to vinyl. Some people only play vinyl for one, vinyl is more collectable, but perhaps the most relevant to your question is the fact that for many - the 'side effects' of the vinyl medium when compared to the digital source could be described as pleasing by some.

I think I understand your point though - cutting a vinyl from a digital source could be seen as a degradation too, but like inlinenl pointed out, this is a highly subjective area.



Depends where you got them... there probably are some illegal boots floating around that have been recorded from vinyl, I would imagine most Beatles mp3s are either from the more recent digital releases or otherwise ripped from CDs which would have been sourced from the reel to reel tapes or from high res files which were previously sourced from the tapes.

Right. I can see the advantages of vinyl pressing, but I'm just trying to refine my understanding of these concepts. But a source of confusion is: if a digital music producer releases a vinyl, how is it recorded?

[huejahfink]

Depends what you mean by 'digital music producer'?

If you mean "produces and records their music entirely digitally" then surely you already know the answer to that.

If you mean "a producer that releases digitally" then you would have to ask the individual producer that.

In VERY basic terms - once a digital file has been made, that can be sent to the cutting engineer who will feed it from a D/A through an analogue (or hybrid) chain which will pass through to a cutting head which will etch the groove onto a lacquer.
The lacquer will then be sent away for plates to be made, and those plates will be used to press the actual discs.
I suppose this is another reason why some people believe vinyl to be generally a superior medium even for 'digitally produced' music. It's much more likely on the whole to have seen a professional mastering engineer.

Perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding your question... because it seems like you already know all of this.

[ctoth666]

Originally Posted by huejahfink

Depends what you mean by 'digital music producer'?

If you mean "produces and records their music entirely digitally" then surely you already know the answer to that.

If you mean "a producer that releases digitally" then you would have to ask the individual producer that.

In VERY basic terms - once a digital file has been made, that can be sent to the cutting engineer who will feed it from a D/A through an analogue (or hybrid) chain which will pass through to a cutting head which will etch the groove onto a lacquer.
The lacquer will then be sent away for plates to be made, and those plates will be used to press the actual discs.
I suppose this is another reason why some people believe vinyl to be generally a superior medium even for 'digitally produced' music. It's much more likely on the whole to have seen a professional mastering engineer.

Perhaps I'm totally misunderstanding your question... because it seems like you already know all of this.

No you're not. That's exactly what I wanted to know. I hope you can understand that it's a confusing subject, particularly when people argue about quality. On the one hand that's how I thought it worked, but on the other hand I thought that was a bit strange. In that case, in terms of sound quality, would an advantage of vinyl be that that a professional engineer probably has better D/A conversion than most people do?

[Adam Dempsey]

Originally Posted by ctoth666

in terms of sound quality, would an advantage of vinyl be that that a professional engineer probably has better D/A conversion than most people do?

It takes a good cutting/mastering engineer to cut a good lacquer, plus the expertise and maintenance required at plating and pressing. Plus (ideally) the QC in approving test pressings. Side length alone can play a huge role in the fidelity of the final product translating to vinyl.
But anyone can burn a disc (and hope that it passes QC at replication). So, objectively, a fundamental level of expertise and experience is definitely part of the vinyl picture.
Perhaps equally important though is that playing LP's is far more likely to involve active, rather than passive, listening. All the more reason for test pressings to always be approved first, in my experience and opinion.

[Herc]

I guess there is an implication that moving music into the digital domain does "something" to the sound and vice versa. There are a lot of shades of grey in between analog and digital - some of which have been mentioned above - and too many for me to start qualifying.

Has anyone done a parallel production of a song both totally digital and totally analog - I mean the E2E signal chain including mics and speakers? That may be an interesting comparison.... if it is even possible....

[ctoth666]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

It takes a good cutting/mastering engineer to cut a good lacquer, plus the expertise and maintenance required at plating and pressing. Plus (ideally) the QC in approving test pressings. Side length alone can play a huge role in the fidelity of the final product translating to vinyl.
But anyone can burn a disc (and hope that it passes QC at replication). So, objectively, a fundamental level of expertise and experience is definitely part of the vinyl picture.
Perhaps equally important, though, is that playing LP's is far more likely to involve active, listening rather than passive, listening. All the more reason for test pressings to always be approved first, in my experience and opinion.

Hey this is great information. Glad I started this thread, I always read more about the SQ differences of analog and digital formats and not enough about the other differences, like the actual listening experience and the mastering that goes on.

[graincloud]

Inlinenl makes a very interesting point imho. Music is a matter of perception and all kinds of factors are coming into action to "bias" this perception. From the artwork, to blood pressure, via symbolism and psychology... there's a cultural side that is very important with vinyl and that goes over all the technical considerations about "fidelity" to the source.
My own take on the recent position vinyl is taking in some musical scenes is maybe that in this period of hard times and troubles in the "industry" some people need to go back to some kind of roots, a little bit of conservatism of some sort. When people feels a bit lost with the way we listen to music or with how its made (what is "digital" etc) nowadays it can feel a bit more comfortable to go "back" to something that is felt approved in time, and that feels also a bit more precious (touch 12 inches of pleasure ! e)

But: values are prone to change in space and time and its highly probable, even if some will always stick to vinyl for personal reasons, that another shift happens twrds forgetting about vinyl. Its already quite costy to get decent enough gear to play a record correctly (in a way that doesnt add too much noise to the source, to make it short), and most often people defending vinyls dont even have a setup than can be qualified as "decent" enough; and i bet this cost will grow in the future, making vinyl a sort of elitist medium.

Maybe when people will all be comfortable with digital audio and what it takes to really take benefits from digital formats then the debate about audio quality will evolve and people will understand some of the technical advantages of digital without generalizing things like: digital= crap mp3 VS analog = sonic purity. (especially when you know a 100% analog chain from source to vinyl is very rare).
When people will valorize digital formats, it will probably be a hard time for vinyls maybe.
(and i'm a vinyl lover too, just trying to make some guesses)

In short, to me, a most valuable musical time is spent when properly listening to a digi file without doing anything else, rather than play a vinyl while working or reading a book or what... its all a matter of making yourself available to the music when you listen to it.
I'm not convinced by the fact vinyl is really forcing people into paying attention. But maybe nowadays our societies have cut in our ability to lean on the sofa with a fine Cognac for a couple of hours to properly give that amazing and subtle record the attention it needs my 2cents

[haberdasher]

Originally Posted by ctoth666

what's the point of putting a digital recording on a vinyl?

Because some people like the sound of vinyl.

Not that many vinyl records are pressed with absolutely no A/D/A conversion. A lot of cutting engineers use a digital delay line.

[Greg Reierson]

Vinyl, tape, transformers, tubes, various coloration boxes, etc. are all euphonic effects generators. Some like the sound. Some just think it's cool. Vinyl probably has as much cultural value as it does sound value.

[Jerry Tubb]

Originally Posted by Adam Dempsey

equally important though is that playing LP's is far more likely to involve active, rather than passive, listening.

"Active" being the key word here.

Then someone must get up from the sofa and flip the record over to the B side.

Part of the ritual of listening to music, for music's sake.

And there's a middle ground, say where you are doing odds and ends in your room, house, studio, garage, but you are semi-actively listening to music while working.

One of my favorites is to put on a cool jazz record while working on financial details such as reconciling a bank statement or better yet, tax prep, to help the task go by easier.

Every 10-15 minutes you need to flip or put on another side, which gives a nice break from the concentration.

But to address the OP, there are many reasons to go to vinyl, whether the source is digital or analog isn't a deterrent. There are advantages and disadvantages to both formats, but when used in combination you can use the best of all worlds.

Many of us do a special version of the master in prep for vinyl, leaving the music more dynamic, not touching the limiter, and capturing and delivering at high resolution 24/96k wave files to the lathe meister.

A recent project where I did such, involved both analog and digital processing.

Yes I admire the purity of my pre-digital vinyl collection, mostly classic rock, jazz and blues, but also love recent LPs as well.

Which combination of what format to use, as always... depends.

Best, JT

[ctoth666]

Originally Posted by graincloud

In short, to me, a most valuable musical time is spent when properly listening to a digi file without doing anything else, rather than play a vinyl while working or reading a book or what... its all a matter of making yourself available to the music when you listen to it.
I'm not convinced by the fact vinyl is really forcing people into paying attention. But maybe nowadays our societies have cut in our ability to lean on the sofa with a fine Cognac for a couple of hours to properly give that amazing and subtle record the attention it needs my 2cents

This is a very good observation. I recently began the foray into high-fidelity audio, and I've taken my overall listening experience to new heights. The digital format suits my needs, and the ease-of-use makes it difficult to transition to another medium. My music collection is now strictly .wav and .flac and I've invested in high-end headphones, speakers, and D/A converters. For me, the pinnacle listening experience is throwing back some shrooms, putting on a lossless playlist, dimming the lights, and letting the music envelop me. But I do realize that this is an exception rather than the rule. I have certainly been able to make listening to music an activity in and of itself, which may be most important of all.

[huejahfink]

I think that in many cases the digital vs vinyl difference 'most consumers' talk about comes from listening to various rate mp3s coming out of a laptop or portable player headphone socket, or cheap CD players (less often) VERSUS playback on a 1210 with a DJ cartridge.

For the most part. they just haven't had the opportunity to hear what a great digital master sounds like coming out of a decent quality DA.
But then they probably haven't heard a really good quality vinyl set up either.... I know I haven't generally heard much better than 1210s with DJ carts most of the time.

This I think is certainly true when it comes to the DJ world. I think there are a lot of laptop DJs that simply rock up with a minijack to phono cable coming straight from their onboard soundcard, playing low rate files they blagged off the net. These are the main culprits for giving the digital DJ a bad name in terms of quality of sound.

To me it doesn't really matter whether I'm listening to digital or analogue. The second most important thing is that the equipment used to playback the medium is as good a quality as possible.
The most important thing, is that the music is enjoyable and appropriate. Content over delivery format every time.