Best limiter and compressor plugs for Orch music?

[Huntley Miller]

Originally Posted by Artdude

Hi, i know this has probably been asked before but i searched and couldn't find any relavent answers for choosing the best mastering limiter and compressor for orchestral music (regardless of price). Vocals are also mixed in, along with a full (virtual) orchestra so that's important too in my/our decision.

I don't have the time to demo all of the high end plugins because i have a very short time span to spend on a really good limiter and compressor of which i'll mainly use for orchestral music.

Could someone direct me to the right ones? I don't mind if they color my songs a LITTLE, but that's it. Thanks. I do want them to be transparent though - as much as they possibly can be, but they don't have to be 'steril'. And i don't want the ones that cut off the peaks like the way it looks when you cut a sheet of papaer into with scissors leaving a straight edge on the them. I think they're called 'brickwall' limiters.

No freeware or cheap plugins since i believe in the principle "you get what you pay for" - just not Algorithmix though .

I already have Wavelab 7 and don't EVEN like the stock plugins it has. So can someone please direct me to the ones that are of high quaility, create 'definition', glues intruments together well, and is as transparent as possible?

Thanks. I really appreciate any help in helping me make the right decision!!

Timothy

No compression, lots of manual gain riding and maybe a little L2.

Hopefully, DC will chime in since he has deep experience in this area.

[AUDIOBOMBER]

as far as i was concerned with classical recordings at the salzburg opera , we didnt use any comps or limiter..... nicolaus harnoncourt would have cut my head of.

[Artdude]

Well, maybe i should have added that though it's "orchestral" by nature, the tunes are still somewhat 'rocked' up - meaning the tunes have stong vocals in them, along with some acoustic AND electric guitar work. The music is real similar to the Tran Siberian Orchestra. And a few of the songs (i'm compiling into a CD) sound rather "flat" and need some help. They're mixed well, but are just flat.

[kosmokrator]

Brickwall2 in the T.C. 6000 is good at that.

I don't know how their plugin-based limiter compares, though.

[Artdude]

..maybe so, but i wouldn't touch a Powercore - or anything similar to it - with a ten foot pole for TONS of diff reasons. Thanks anyway though!

[Owen Gillett]

Originally Posted by Artdude

Well, maybe i should have added that though it's "orchestral" by nature, the tunes are still somewhat 'rocked' up - meaning the tunes have stong vocals in them, along with some acoustic AND electric guitar work. The music is real similar to the Tran Siberian Orchestra. And a few of the songs (i'm compiling into a CD) sound rather "flat" and need some help. They're mixed well, but are just flat.

If by flat, you mean lifeless/dynamically flat, peak limiting can ONLY make that worse. Skilfully applied compression may be another story.

I think you need to identify why you want to use dynamic processing. ??

And by the way, there is nothing wrong with powercore as a platform (at least sonically) and certainly nothing wrong with algorithmix plugins.

Best,

Owen Gillett

[Laurend]

I vote for the Flux Solera. It's very subtle.
Flux:: sound and picture development

[Artdude]

Thanks Owen,
Oh no, i like algorithmix, just not the price, but as for the Powercore, yeah, i know it's awesome sonically, but i've been SO turned off by so many negative comments and opinions that i can hardly believe anything good about it, except it's sound quality. From all the POSITIVE things i've heard, about plugs such as Slate Digital's FG-X, Waves JJP series comps, McDSP stuff, etc, i'm sure i can get a well mastered song without having to send it to a ME.

Anyway, about my problem at hand, i'm struggling to get a good sound out of the plugins i already have (MLimiter, Limiter6, and a few other freebies), but with little success - in making my mixes sound "full" and "big" - 'flat' may have been the wrong word since there are indeed a lot of 'dynamic moments' going on, but it just doesn't have that BIG and 'open' sound, like a few of my other tunes which i've mastered myself.

And yes, you may be right about me needing a comp instead of a limiter. Don't get me wrong, the mix is pretty good so i know i don't need to "fix it in the mix" as some people say

[stinkyfingers]

you need to go back and fix it in your mix


seriously, though...a limiter is not magic fairy dust to make things full and big...
i think what you are really looking for is the most cleanest saturation plug-in to make stuff fat and warm and yummy

[BlackBackDrop]

Originally Posted by stinkyfingers

you need to go back and fix it in your mix


seriously, though...a limiter is not magic fairy dust to make things full and big...
i think what you are really looking for is the most cleanest saturation plug-in to make stuff fat and warm and yummy

Stinky nailed it my friend, its all about the mix, limiters are normally used to flatten material after we mixers have spend days doing the antithesis.

Its OK to ask for help, music production is not easy and trying to do everything is almost impossible, every song requires a different approach. I am waiting to mix an album that is delayed so I am free at them mo, drop me a pm if you change you mind.

[Artdude]

hmmm, maybe so. I'll try a few demo's of some saturaters - maybe that one called Decapitator i think it's called by"_____ Toys". Thanks Stinky and BlackBackDrop!

[stinkyfingers]

i don't know what platform you use but...
something like Airwindows Drive2 is good to have. all it does is add odd harmonics...you can adjust to taste.
one thing i have found to be a problem with a lot of plug-ins out there (imo): there are too many harmonics, and often a lot of "garbage" with.
i like to keep it simple, less is more, etc...
as for a good compressor and limiter, i use DMG Compassion and Voxengo Elephant.
for saturation i use Airwindows Drive2 or Density2, or soft clipping in Compassion.
Compassion can also be used as a (non-brickwall) limiter.

[lu432]

If the orchestral portion of it was recorded properly I might buss it out and do a hair of eq'ing and gain riding. On the overall mix I might use a vari-mu to glue the mix together. However I doubt that I would do more than that.

However orchestral music is very dynamic and if you used a propper Decca Tree and Schoeps M 201 or Neumann KM 56 mic's you should be okay without any need for compression.

[Artdude]

If you're referring to the vari-mu hardware comp/limiter then that's a mute point since i can't afford it - would be nice if they had a plugin emu. Thanks anyway lu432, BUT, you made me think of something - i went back and listened to my song again and noticed none of the instruments were "definable", meaning they were all just mangled together. I wish i could hear EACH ONE in the mix, but they're and jumbled up. I guess "glueing" a mix together means each instrument is 'definable', yes, no? The vocals were the only thing that 'sat up' in the mix to a degree, yet even they were somewhat 'lost' in the mixture. Can this be fixed after mixdown or do i HAVE to go back and add a comp to each sub-group of instruments? - please don't tell me this is the case .

Decca Tree and Schoeps M 201 or Neumann KM 56 mic's

All i can afford is one under $500 - so that's my next purchase.

Thanks guys!!

Tim (it - The Beatitudes - can be heard at Bible songs sung verse by verse for Scripture memorization if anyone wants to hear what i'm talking about. The Love Chapter is also a somewhat messy example, but not as bad. The song's are in the Flash format).

[whiteaxxxe]

listend to the songs ...

(John the baptist)

my opinion: too much trebbly, very too much trebly. in addition to this there is a lack of mids and defined bottom especially with the vocals. the vocals sound like a bodyless voice. the guitars have nice heights (a little bit Jethro Tull - like) but also lack of body.

everything down below, that where the punch comes from, is too weak, not there, or has no dynamics. when the timpanis come in, there is no earthquake, you can just realise its timpani. not a listening sensation. you want obviously power and impact but you have mixed the impacts and the power nearly completely out.

(btw: I am completely not into "christian music", but therse songs are great ... I would buy it ...)

if I were you, I would get me nice orchestral CD which you like with power in it (dont know one), listen to it, and would try to figure out how they managed the balance between bass, mids and heights.

and while mixing, turn up the volume to a good level and mix dynamically. I assume that these songs can have a dynamic range of 15 or 18. dont be afraid, if the quiter sections (guitars) are really quiet, and dont be afraid when the timpanis will tear your walls down. that is what an orchestra does: tearing walls down - and between that is nice music. :-))

(the love chapter)

much too fat, too compressed, the voice is much too upfront (JJP or CLA????? awful plugins ... :-()

the two songs for example I think you will not get into a state where they are sounding "together". if you want to compile an album from it, the sound of the songs has to be more coherent in means of frequency and dynamics.

(btw: maybe its not a good idea, to have such big treble in orchestral music in general. its not pop-music. an orchestra doesnt sound trebbly, it sounds fundamental in real, it has not much treble compared to your mixes. this is why the hits and loud parts are so cutting through. "real" instruments have very much less treble when played quite, the heights com up when they get played louder. this is, what I would take into concern.)

[wado1942]

I've never used compression or limiting on orchestral stuff.

Don't knock all free plugs, some of them are quite good. Of course, most of them suck though.

[Artdude]

ahhhh i didn't know (realize) that. Thanks whiteaxxxe. That helped me more than you know. I'm the only one doing all this (the writing, then recording/performing, mixing, mastering, then production). I live out in the boonies and the music populous around here is like DEAD!

Anyway, i'm going to go back and do what you suggested i do. I may even send those two tunes to a mastering house, yet i don't know of any good ones. Thanks again whiteaxxxe!!!!

[livingstone]

Dynamic in Orchestral music is something wich is quite difficult to manipulate to have a faithfull listening experience thru a recording

i haven't been in cuting room in the 60's 70's but considering the vinyl snr there would have been logicaly a touch of compression to save the quietest moment to be lost in the surface noise and cracklings

at least i've had the case recently for some contemporary electroacoustic pieces

for this kind of work, Best digital compressor i've heard is the Jünger Accent 2, even better than the Weiss DS1 ! still not a plug in tho'

in the plug in world sonicaly the flux Solera is not as clean and the amount of setting can do bad easily, but it's easyer to found than an accent 2 wich is not build anymore.

it shines to bring quiet moments up invisibly, a bit like paralell compression could do but without the artefacts, and without sacrifying the impact's perception of the loudest parts.