For those of you who only limit 3db or less…

[thedigitalgod]

Eq

[Magucci]

SoftSat

[Twerk]

EQ.

[marchhare]

Originally Posted by thedigitalgod

Eq

How much extra level do you get from your eq? I use the UAD Massive Passive sometimes, but rarely more than a db at 12k and
100hz.

SoftSat

Plug in?

[Camera]

Perceived loudness through use of EQ.

[kosmokrator]

Clipping.

Of course no one will admit it.

[marchhare]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

Clipping.

Of course no one will admit it.

That's pretty much what I was getting at. I posted something similar to this
question a couple of years ago and never really got a good answer.

[BT Mastering]

I usually get a good level with eq and compressor without clipping, if I worked well my limiter will needs just 0.5 or 1 db extra gain.

If customer require for "extra" loudness I can apply Analog saturation or Digital saturation from my converter (so.. YES, "clipping" converter).
I use a Lavry Blue - 4496

If you use VST - plugins you can set compressors to work in RMS.
you can also apply 2 stage of limiting in your chain, this if you want get high level loudness and clipping become inevitable.

However there is no "standard" setup, you have to use the right tool when it needs..according to musical genre and customer needs..

Francis

[Thor]

Really, what's the deal with "loud" at this point in the game? It's been done, and is soooo 1990's - 2000's. Can't we move past that and focus on "good" instead?

sigh...

[lowland]

EQ and judicious amounts of of compression make a big difference, and when I need more loudness I'll clip the HEDD's ADC and/or hard-clip the TC M6000.

Icing on the loudness cake is limiting if necessary, but I don't often use it as clipping generally sounds better to me. Most limiting here will be the occasional small amount on the final playlist to help even up loudness across an album.

[Owen Gillett]

Originally Posted by Thor

Really, what's the deal with "loud" at this point in the game? It's been done, and is soooo 1990's - 2000's. Can't we move past that and focus on "good" instead?

sigh...

Couldn't agree more.

OG

[fredouli]

Originally Posted by Owen Gillett

Couldn't agree more.

OG

Don't you think 'shuffle' kinda dictates that you need to compete?

[Owen Gillett]

Which kind of shuffle are we talking about?

I can't think of a form of shuffle which would make it worth compromising musical integrity.

If you're on iPod/Pad/Tunes shuffle, turn on soundcheck.

If you're talking about a multiple CD stacker in a car, just adjust the volume as you have the volume at arm's reach (or even on the steering wheel maybe)

Considering CD apparently on its last legs (commercially anyway), I think the justifiable need to 'compete' for level is a fast becoming a pointless plight of years gone by.

As Thor said, surely we should be focussing on the aesthetic of the sound and put quality first.

Best,

OG

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by Thor

Really, what's the deal with "loud" at this point in the game? It's been done, and is soooo 1990's - 2000's. Can't we move past that and focus on "good" instead?

sigh...

In a way I agree.

But to be honest, it's quite hilarious to see all the MEs here be so pro-dynamics, not clipping, 'just EQing and some compression' etc. etc.

Then you let them test-master a mix without mentioning anything about loudness.

You should really try it. I'm also pro mixing and did exactly that, even with some regulars on this forum.

What you get back is as squashed as the next guy.

[fredouli]

Honestly I think it's the balance of getting the level up and retaining musicality which is the art

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by fredouli

Don't you think 'shuffle' kinda dictates that you need to compete?

Only if you're shuffling CDs on a multi-disc player. Otherwise no.

Every media player, streaming service, radio and TV station can control the level of the music and adjust it towards a center point. You experience this every time you listen to the radio, Pandora, Spotify, iTunes with Sound Check, etc. That's why a song from 1995 plays at the same level as the last Green Day album.

Try Sound Check for your own masters and see if you prefer more or less loudness processing. Then ask your clients to evaluate them that way as well. Create two sets of masters - one for CD and a lower level, higher headroom version for digital distribution - and they'll be able to hear the difference and then use the appropriate master for each delivery format.

[thermos]

This is why no one answered you before. You can argue up and down why things shouldn't be loud, but have that argument with too many clients and soon you won't have any. Fine if you just want to master your own albums.
Like the others, eq does a ton for perceived volume and clipping a good adc usually sounds better than limiting. I generally do about 1/4 a db of compression. A db at most if it really needs it.

[Greg Reierson]

Originally Posted by thermos

You can argue up and down why things shouldn't be loud, but have that argument with too many clients and soon you won't have any.

About half of my indie clients are opting for lower level / higher headroom digital distribution files in addition to CD masters. There is no down side to offering better sounding masters as long as they can have a loud CD too.

It won't be long until the primary target is NOT CD.

[marchhare]

Originally Posted by Greg Reierson

Only if you're shuffling CDs on a multi-disc player. Otherwise no.

Every media player, streaming service, radio and TV station can control the level of the music and adjust it towards a center point. You experience this every time you listen to the radio, Pandora, Spotify, iTunes with Sound Check, etc. That's why a song from 1995 plays at the same level as the last Green Day album.

Try Sound Check for your own masters and see if you prefer more or less loudness processing. Then ask your clients to evaluate them that way as well. Create two sets of masters - one for CD and a lower level, higher headroom version for digital distribution - and they'll be able to hear the difference and then use the appropriate master for each delivery format.

I like this idea. I've been listening to stuff on Spotify for the last year, and
the heavily limited tracks sound really bad compared to the older stuff.

Originally Posted by fredouli

Honestly I think it's the balance of getting the level up and retaining musicality which is the art

Which is why I'm constantly trying to improve in this area. I wish
things were different, but if I hand a client a mix that's half the volume of
their record collection, I'm gonna get fired. People don't like to imagine
what it's gonna sound like. If I turn something in to a music supervisor and
it's not in the ballpark of the ten thousand other songs it's competing with,
it's gonna get skipped over.

Originally Posted by Camera

Perceived loudness through use of EQ.

The more I ponder this, the more I come to the conclusion that perceived
loudness means really bright.

[John Moran]

Originally Posted by marchhare

I wish
things were different, but if I hand a client a mix that's half the volume of
their record collection, I'm gonna get fired.

not true.

I won an album project a couple of months ago versus the competition because my ref sounded much better.

the only thing the client could say about the other presentation was it was loud but didn't sound anywhere as good as what I presented them.

it's really that simple. loud is easy, any monkey can do that.
quality requires a bit more skill and there are no skill plug-ins or processors.

[Zep Dude]

Unfortunately clipping these days often starts with the mix engineer. I get mixes that are already into audible distortion from extreme brickwall limiting. What am I supposed to do with this? It's a shame what people are doing to music. Desecration of a gift.

[Nama]

for you guys who say EQ,

could you explane a bit more, please?

[Zep Dude]

Originally Posted by Nama

for you guys who say EQ,

could you explane a bit more, please?

Simple. You have to balance the song correctly so that there isn't a build up of frequencies in any one place hitting the limiter. A well balanced song will take level better.

If you don't get this right you'll have a certain frequency spectrum bringing the limiter into distortion.

The solution to this is having good ears and a good room, and knowing how to even the song out correctly That's why the limiting should be left to the mastering engineer.

[polybonk]

Originally Posted by Zep Dude

Unfortunately clipping these days often starts with the mix engineer. I get mixes that are already into audible distortion from extreme brickwall limiting. What am I supposed to do with this? It's a shame what people are doing to music. Desecration of a gift.

Ask them to take the limiter off and send it in 32 bit float. That is idiot proof enough.

[24-96 Mastering]

Originally Posted by kosmokrator

In a way I agree.

But to be honest, it's quite hilarious to see all the MEs here be so pro-dynamics, not clipping, 'just EQing and some compression' etc. etc.

Then you let them test-master a mix without mentioning anything about loudness.

You should really try it. I'm also pro mixing and did exactly that, even with some regulars on this forum.

What you get back is as squashed as the next guy.

"Level-wise, this doesn't have to be smashed, but should be able to compete. You won't make me happy with a -15 db RMS master, but neither with a -6 db RMS."

I don't know all the details, but I presume most masters you got back probably reflected what you asked for

[dietrich10]

Originally Posted by marchhare

How much extra level do you get from your eq? I use the UAD Massive Passive sometimes, but rarely more than a db at 12k and
100hz.



Plug in?

By rule you do not eq more than a dB?

That sounds like you are getting very well mixed tracks that only need volume boost?

[inlinenl]

My EQ has a 6 dB input gain & a 6 dB output gain, it's just in front of my AD & right after the analog comp,

I make a lot if gain on my way in and out of the EQ ... loving it ..

[kosmokrator]

Originally Posted by 24-96 Mastering

"Level-wise, this doesn't have to be smashed, but should be able to compete. You won't make me happy with a -15 db RMS master, but neither with a -6 db RMS."

I don't know all the details, but I presume most masters you got back probably reflected what you asked for

I wasn't speaking of your testmaster, Robin. And if you recall, you sent me 3 versions for different loudness-tastes, which was great.

I had several more runs like the one you took part in.

And, still, a mastering engineer won't make me (mixing hat on) very happy with a -15 RMS master for a rock/pop release. Neither the labels, artists nor producers I work for.

How are you doing BTW? I'd love to work with you again, I have no say in choosing the mastering engineer in >90% of mix jobs I get in.

[jackbraglia]

depends on the mix. But softclipping will do it